Obama voters, try and help me out here please.

[Ellen]

As of now, I still want to vote, but I still can't in good concience. I've had many conversations with myself, to no avail. I've looked at all the smart/thoughtful/political/influential people voting for him, and think, I must be missing something. So I want to ask those of you who have no problem with him, how did you get past/justify the several questionable "friendships" he's had? What made you dismiss them (and the lack of honesty about) as an issue? How can you ignore the fact that he has not been as upfront as he should have been? To me, honesty is one of the greatest qualities a leader can/should possess, it's important. Obama said in his infomercial he would be honest with us, but will he, since he hasn't been so far? And why is that?

I don't mind others who are not voting for him offering their thoughts/discussion, but I want to keep this civil. Mudslinging and name calling just derail from the real issue, and there's a vote at stake here. If you all agree that's important, let's keep it nice.

Now, let's hear it, I really wanna vote Tuesday morning.

 

[decodelighted]

Did you see the CNN specials on both McCain & Obama last night ... maybe they''ll run ''em again. They were both very interesting & balanced portraits -- & may help you decide without poster help ... but I''ll give that a go too.

My take on the "associations" ... Obama is primarily an academic. He ran in academic circles. Universities ... especially prestigious ones are one of the only places that court controversial people ... somewhat because the powers that be all think of themselves as open, liberal, tolerant etc etc. A large part of creating those environments is peppering it with people who DON''T think alike -- to get an open discussion going -- not just a one sided, narrow perspective. You don''t have to agree with people to be in the same room or have a discussion or serve on a panel together.

Re: Rev. Wright -- I believe he''s gotten more out there over the years and he was a different person when Obama met him than he is today. When we''re close to someone, you don''t always see the progression as clearly as an outsider would. Keep in mind -- Obama also loves his admittedly racist grandmother. He''s capable of seeing the shades of gray in human beings & admiring the parts that are admirable, while rejecting the parts that aren''t. For me that shows that he''s an evolved human being. One who can make mistakes about people (Rezko) -- but McCain has made those misjudgments too (Keating). But who looks for the good in people & has a gift of bringing out the good in people. He''s not perfect. He''s not a messiah figure. He''s a human man who had a tumultuous life and OFTEN put the greater good ahead of his own personal gain. (ex --Going back to the South side of Chicago after gaining national attention for being the first black Harvard Law Review pres.-- turning down countless career opportunities to go back & serve that community that helped give him purpose)

People sliming him & making more out of these "associations" than ever really existed is so sad & frustrating. Its like someone from the academic/community service world who has foreign relatives and a funny name is just doomed from the start. Where someone born to a family of Admirals & married to a heiress gets a free pass no matter how murky his record is or how common knowledge his tantrums are or how kooky & irresponsible a VP selection he made. McCain may have been a Maverick at one time - but he is also a misogynist IMHO. Not to mention out of his depth when it comes to the very crisis we''re currently experiencing -- economic. Lotta good his VP will do there. But, I''m sorry -- you didn''t ask about them. I''ve said my peace about Obama so I''ll stop.

 

[Ellen]

Thanks deco. Actually, I did catch most of the CNN special on Obama. And there was something said that could have explained why he at least went to Wright''s church in the first place. It was something about that being THE place the movers and shakers went, so I could definitely see him thinking that''s the place to be. And that helped some. And I have thought along some of the same lines about Wright that you mentioned, so, maybe.

As for Ayres, if he just would have been up front to begin with, I don''t think much would have been made of it at all. I certainly don''t think he''s a secret terrorist, but when he wasn''t honest, and then you find out there''s more, it''s like, ok, why? Did he just think it was better off (all) left unsaid, since he''s not a real popular guy, or is there really more?

I do think more has been made with some than it should have, but I also think he brought it on himself by not being upfront to begin with. And with each questionable person popping up, and no answers, it''s not unreasonable to question him, considering he''s running for president. It just makes you kinda question his judgement....Though I haven''t really seen anything in the last two years that looked anything but impressive, as far as his campaign picks, etc.

You made a plausible point in your first paragraph about the circles he ran with. And I will add, no politician is an angel, I know that. I''m sure everybody probably has "one" shady relationship. Obama just seems to have more...

But thanks again!

 

[surfgirl]

Just stopping by to say that I would like to echo Deco's post. Anyone who has lived a life worth living has, at some point, made a few mistakes, hung out with people that in retrospect they might not have had they known what they now know. That's how I look at the Ayers and similar connections. That was a long time ago, and it really has no bearing on the Obama we see before us today. And for that matter, people like Ayers aren't necessarily the same people they once were, so where's that good old fashioned "Christian forgiveness" that this country likes to bandy about when convenient?

As for the Rev. Wright outrage - I assume most of it is for his "god damn America" comment - I for one applauded when I heard him say that because I travel outside of this country all the time and what the Bush Administration has done to damage not only our standing in the world as a respected leader, but also the damage we've perpetrated on other countries - in the name of 'democracy' - it's horrible. There are many people that look at bombings of US enterprises and even 9/11 and say objectively, "yes, we've brought this level of hatred on ourselves with our meddling into other countries and forcing our version of democracy and 'moral values' on other countries and cultures, with little to no respect for their ways of doing things." So I dont take Wright's ramblings as equaling Obama being anti-American in any way. Wright's a crazy, overly zealous pastor and many guys say worse, Obama doesn't go there anymore so why should I care? I dont. But I am honest enough with myself to know that he did have a point when he said that, and we have, as a nation, brought some of this fall out upon ourselves.

If you want to talk about how each candidate would run the country as President, I think looking at how they've conducted their campaigns is a very good overview of how they would lead our country. Obama has conducted his election campaign with an incredible level of detail in terms of organization, precision and inclusiveness. He has brought people of all races, religions, backgrounds and cultures together to work for the common cause of improving this country, and restoring it back to a time when all Americans could be proud of their country, and countries around the world looked to us for leadership on many global issues. I can say this from firsthand experience because I've worked on this campaign, I've been in on phone calls with campaign leaders at regional and national levels, and the level of organization is unsurpassed. It boggles my mind how it all comes together with so many people from different backgrounds, different education levels, different ways of working - all working simultaneously and successfully for a common goal. That says a lot about how this country will work under an Obama Presidency.

When I look at McCain's campaign, all I see are the dirty smears and fear based messages that brought us 8 years of Bush/Cheney. The man that was once well regarded and respected by both sides of the aisle is no more. Sold out for a chance to sit in the Oval Office. I dont see any "Country First" there. All I see is "ME First...and at all costs." I see a campaign that is disorganized, in shambles, running back and forth, unable to coalesce into a well organized effort. I see statements constantly being reversed and changed, tactics being tried and tossed on a near daily basis. And perhaps worst of all, I see the worst of our country - xenophobia, racism and bigotry - all trotted out and accepted publicly by the McCain/Palin ticket. The level of hate speech has made me physically ill many times during this campaign. And so I ask myself, which of these two men can really lead this country at this time in history? Which of these men can restore dignity to this once-great country. Which one of these men can bring people together, rather than pull them apart? The answer for me is clear, Barak Obama is that man.

One last comment on not voting, as it's my personal pet peeve. Having worked in so many countries where my colleagues there would literally give up their lives for the right to vote, it galls me when anyone who can vote her, doesn't, simply because they dont love the entire package. So I always tell people, if you dont love the entire package, just pick one or two issues that are your personal touchstone issues, and vote based on that. For me, a woman's right to choose and the environment are my touchstone issues. If I cant make a decision on the candidate as a package, then I look at those two issues and vote based on that. There's been a lot of rhetoric this election, hell, the last 8 year in fact, about who is the most "American" and the most "patriotic" among us. Apparently speaking out against things one feels are wrong, has been "Un-American" for the last 8 years. To many, a yellow stick-on ribbon and plastic flags on their gigantic SUVs makes them "more American" than some. So I'll leave you with a comment that a newly sworn in American citizen, who will be voting here for the first time, said to me last week after waiting 11 years to earn the right to vote in this country, "Voting...that is patriotic...not putting a flag on your car."

 

[tanuki]

If you get PBS the show "Frontline" also has done a portrait of both candidates which is informative about Obama''s past.

One of the things that the show mentions is how Obama, while he was at Harvard Law school - made it a point to not limit his associations to people who held just one point of view. He seemed interested in listening to all sides of an issue. America is looking for a president with the leadership characteristics to bring us together. Considering multiple points of view is something I consider a plus.

The McCain campaign has made a huge issue out of William Ayres. Having been asked to sit on this or that charitable board in the past I never really knew the other people sitting around the table to a huge degree. If you think Obama was "palling around with terrorists" you also have to believe that the Annenbergs - prominent Republicans who ran the foundation and were friends of the Reagans were fellow travelers as well. As well as every other person who sat on that board. I just don''t buy it.

The Vietnam war was a time when emotions ran very strong because young men were being drafted and coming home in body bags. The conduct of the war and the rationale for being in it were very controversial. Napalm was being dropped on villages and burning up children. The draft wasn''t being handled entirely fairly - some got out due to political pull while others went who didn''t have it. If you think that Republicans are "palling around with terrorists" because they accept the support of people who bomb abortion clinics or shoot abortion doctors who are doing something perfectly legal but they consider wrong, I would consider that a similar situation as what was going on during Vietnam. Palin refused to answer that question when she was asked.

As for Reverend Wright - did you know that he served in the United States Marines? He has paid the price in service to his country to have whatever opinion he wants. I have sat in church and heard the current minister repeat the church''s position on homosexuality which I didn''t agree with. I didn''t leave the church because I am old enough to remember when southern churches had a lesson to learn during the civil rights era about racism. If I were to leave who would be left in the church to provide a voice of moderation? I don''t fault Obama for not walking out during a sermon any more than I would fault Sarah Palin for not walking out when her minister was saying that God was punishing the Jews in Israel by making terrorists attack them as punishment for not coming to Jesus.

I''m still getting the occasional E-mail saying that Obama isn''t a U.S. citizen or that he is a Muslim. Attack ads work so they continue to use them. In 2004 the Republicans said that if Kerry were elected he would ban the Bible. Don''t believe everything you hear.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 11/2/2008 7:04:14 PM
Author: surfgirl
As for the Rev. Wright outrage - I assume most of it is for his ''god damn America'' comment - I for one applauded when I heard him say that because I travel outside of this country all the time and what the Bush Administration has done to damage not only our standing in the world as a respected leader, but also the damage we''ve perpetrated on other countries - in the name of ''democracy'' - it''s horrible. There are many people that look at bombings of US enterprises and even 9/11 and say objectively, ''yes, we''ve brought this level of hatred on ourselves with our meddling into other countries and forcing our version of democracy and ''moral values'' on other countries and cultures, with little to no respect for their ways of doing things.'' So I dont take Wright''s ramblings as equaling Obama being anti-American in any way. Wright''s a crazy, overly zealous pastor and many guys say worse, Obama doesn''t go there anymore so why should I care? I dont. But I am honest enough with myself to know that he did have a point when he said that, and we have, as a nation, brought some of this fall out upon ourselves.

I agree ... I''ve yet to hear something from Rev. Wright that *offends* me. Plenty I don''t agree with .. but I understand who is message is for. And how he''s trying to focus healthy anger & frustration (it exists! it just does!) toward getting people to go out and do better for themselves, advocate for change, be the change --- NOT to perpetrate violence against people. One can be angry at one''s country ... VERY angry ... but still be an honorable citizen patriot. Wright''s messages were for his congregation -- his people -- he own unique audience with some common experiences & frustrations. He wasn''t (at the time Obama was a member of his church) attempting to gain a worldwide audience -- or speak about America''s ills in a public forum. When he started to widen his pulpit & spread more controversial ideas - Obama cut ties. That''s not fishy IMHO. Its a changed stance due to changed situations & changed MOTIVATIONS by Rev. Wright. Think how heartbreaking it must have been for Obama. He was searching for african american role models in Chicago ...after having very few/none growing up. He found a popular charismatic preacher (& the Obama-mamas

) yet, in the end, was so disappointed with him -- after similar disappointments with his own father. I find it very sad -- not scandalous.

 

[Ellen]

surf, thanks. And I actually did understand the "God D*** America" comment. It's kind of ironic that of all the things he's said, that one gets thrown out the most. I think a lot of people may not really be hearing what he's saying there... And you don't have to remind me of his good qualities, I see them all, and admire him very much for them.


Thanks tuki. I don't believe everything I hear. In my post, what I tried to convey is the honesty aspect. I think that's what bothers me most. WHY didn't he just be upfront about everyone/everything from the get go. As I said before, I think he made it all worse by being evasive. And that's what I want to know, why did he choose that response? Does it mean nothing, or something?

 

[ksinger]

Date: 11/2/2008 5:31:20 PM
Author:Ellen
As of now, I still want to vote, but I still can''t in good concience. I''ve had many conversations with myself, to no avail. I''ve looked at all the smart/thoughtful/political/influential people voting for him, and think, I must be missing something. So I want to ask those of you who have no problem with him, how did you get past/justify the several questionable ''friendships'' he''s had? What made you dismiss them (and the lack of honesty about) as an issue? How can you ignore the fact that he has not been as upfront as he should have been? To me, honesty is one of the greatest qualities a leader can/should possess, it''s important. Obama said in his infomercial he would be honest with us, but will he, since he hasn''t been so far? And why is that?

I don''t mind others who are not voting for him offering their thoughts/discussion, but I want to keep this civil. Mudslinging and name calling just derail from the real issue, and there''s a vote at stake here. If you all agree that''s important, let''s keep it nice.

Now, let''s hear it, I really wanna vote Tuesday morning.

I''m being absolutely non-flippant when I ask this, but Ellen, why should what we think, or how any of us came to our conclusions matter to you? It truly seems you''ve already decided that he''s dishonest (to judge by your post) and that you feel you can''t vote for him. That is fine. Don''t.

There have been more words, bigger spotlights, and closer scrutiny of the candidates in this campaign than I can remember in my lifetime. I am deadly sick of just about all of it. I am voting for Obama because of.....(insert what they said - they probably said it better anyway, or what I said way back when, any reason you like, apparently none of them will convince you and I''m not feeling up to it anyway), but I''m voting for him. And for me, living in Oklahoma, which is SO incredibly wrapped up for McCain and has been since 1968, it is TRULY an exercise in futility for me to vote for a democrat. I''m sure very few would blame me if I simply melted into a puddle of election day ennui. But I''m voting anyway, futile or not. Neither candidate is perfect, Obama will disappoint, will make mistakes, will make choices I don''t like, I''m certain. But at some point you have to get off the dime and choose. Or not I guess. But MY conscience won''t let me sit home, so...I vote.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 11/2/2008 7:37:40 PM
Author: Ellen
why did he choose that response? Does it mean nothing, or something?

To be clear -- Do you mean the specific response in the Hilary debate "He''s just a guy in the neighborhood"? Or the general response of dismissal as a non-issue? Maybe I''m missing something!

 

[miraclesrule]

Dayum, it's impressive how positively passionate his support. I can't compete with any of you....

Deco, surfgirl, tanuki, ksinger

I have some shady characters in my family and in my associations throughout life, yet their presence has shaped my outlook and provided me a broader perspective of the influences that shape human behavior.

I have witnessed the transformation of our youth and people of all parties to unite in a single purpose. It is almost an awakening...but one that we need desparately. I am glad that Obama played it as safe as possible. Even the association with Rev. Wright. Obama's response speech was as honest and in your face as a politician can get. He demonstrated to me that he could stand up and challenge our collective conscience. He got my attention because he resonated at an emotion that is stronger and more persuasive than fear.

I have many doubts about Obama, but it has nothing to do with his associations and everything to do with the way politics is at it's core. However, his record suggests that he is as capable of inspiring support that transcends party lines and challenges the status quo in Congress as he can in his campaign behavior. He is not polarizing or deeply entrenched into any industry, cause, or issue that isn't important to our common good as a nation and as global citizens.

McCain didn't freak me out as much until Palin and the last few months of the campaign. I'm sad for him and I feel a bit let down. I felt like this when Perot dropped out of the race. I wish I could even understand what happened to John McCain's campaign. The right has moved so far from center that they risk falling over. We are teetering and ready to snap. We need someone like Obama.

Am I still scared? Yep. But a lot less so with Obama. I might feel a bit better with someone who isn't on the ticket, but they aren't running for President anymore.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 11/2/2008 7:39:10 PM
Author: ksinger
I''m being absolutely non-flippant when I ask this, but Ellen, why should what we think, or how any of us came to our conclusions matter to you? It truly seems you''ve already decided that he''s dishonest (to judge by your post) and that you feel you can''t vote for him. That is fine. Don''t.

There have been more words, bigger spotlights, and closer scrutiny of the candidates in this campaign than I can remember in my lifetime. I am deadly sick of just about all of it. I am voting for Obama because of.....(insert what they said - they probably said it better anyway, or what I said way back when, any reason you like, apparently none of them will convince you and I''m not feeling up to it anyway), but I''m voting for him. And for me, living in Oklahoma, which is SO incredibly wrapped up for McCain and has been since 1968, it is TRULY an exercise in futility for me to vote for a democrat. I''m sure very few would blame me if I simply melted into a puddle of election day ennui. But I''m voting anyway, futile or not. Neither candidate is perfect, Obama will disappoint, will make mistakes, will make choices I don''t like, I''m certain. But at some point you have to get off the dime and choose. Or not I guess. But MY conscience won''t let me sit home, so...I vote.

Because I am smart enough to know I don''t know everything, and that sometimes I can be wrong. Because I think that open dialogue is good, that it can help open ones own mind. Because I know I''m not the only one who struggled with this, or struggles still. Yes, there are still people sitting on the fence, because of this very reason. So I asked this in the hopes that I could possibly be enlightened.

I''m not sure why you posted, it really wasn''t helpful. But thanks anyway.

 

[miraclesrule]

Oh Ellen, you'll love Karen. She's just cranky tonight.

I was super cranky last night and sort of stung Mims. It happens.

But the question is....will you still associate with her on this board?

I'm glad you asked Ellen, because I know that this election has brought out very powerful manipulations of the minds that never existed. They know what works. They have been training to brainwash us for years and they have the technology and psychology to do so. It's a good thing that humans have an instrintic ability to "bi***slap" themselves into action despite all the forces against us.

ETA: It's a pleasure to be on the board with you ladies while I blast Melissa Etheridge on the stereo and drink a mimosa. Cheers to the outcome!!

 

[iheartscience]

What exactly was Obama evasive about? I wasn''t as wrapped up in the election at first so I really don''t know. If he was dismissive of his Ayers connection, well, it seems to me that it wasn''t much of a relationship, so I don''t see the problem there. As for Wright, I agree with what others have said that yes, he''s a little crazy, but he doesn''t really offend me.

As for why I''m voting for Obama: I agree with him on many, many issues. It''s obvious that he''s the most qualified, well-prepared candidate. He has the ability to bring people together in a way that would be very helpful for our country right now.

And even if I wasn''t won over by Obama, I couldn''t possibly vote for McCain, based on the disorganized and offensive campaign he''s run, as well as his VP pick. I also couldn''t not vote based on a few of anyone''s past associations. In my opinion, the sad state of our country at this moment is really just too important to sit this election out.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 11/2/2008 7:50:33 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 11/2/2008 7:39:10 PM
Author: ksinger
I''m being absolutely non-flippant when I ask this, but Ellen, why should what we think, or how any of us came to our conclusions matter to you? It truly seems you''ve already decided that he''s dishonest (to judge by your post) and that you feel you can''t vote for him. That is fine. Don''t.

There have been more words, bigger spotlights, and closer scrutiny of the candidates in this campaign than I can remember in my lifetime. I am deadly sick of just about all of it. I am voting for Obama because of.....(insert what they said - they probably said it better anyway, or what I said way back when, any reason you like, apparently none of them will convince you and I''m not feeling up to it anyway), but I''m voting for him. And for me, living in Oklahoma, which is SO incredibly wrapped up for McCain and has been since 1968, it is TRULY an exercise in futility for me to vote for a democrat. I''m sure very few would blame me if I simply melted into a puddle of election day ennui. But I''m voting anyway, futile or not. Neither candidate is perfect, Obama will disappoint, will make mistakes, will make choices I don''t like, I''m certain. But at some point you have to get off the dime and choose. Or not I guess. But MY conscience won''t let me sit home, so...I vote.

Because I am smart enough to know I don''t know everything, and that sometimes I can be wrong. Because I think that open dialogue is good, that it can help open ones own mind. Because I know I''m not the only one who struggled with this, or struggles still. Yes, there are still people sitting on the fence, because of this very reason. So I asked this in the hopes that I could possibly be enlightened.

I''m not sure why you posted, it really wasn''t helpful. But thanks anyway.

Oh, if only everyone were as smart as you - these threads would be a heck of a lot more pleasant. Ellen, vote your heart - write in a name if you can''t bring yourself to pull the trigger for one of the two candidates.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Hi, Ellen!

You and I have had this conversation before, but I just want to say again that I admire how seriously you are taking this decision. You''ve approached this election with a great deal of thoughtfulness and intelligence, and I commend you for knowing that you''re NOT sure which candidate deserves your vote. I wish every voter would give their decision even half of the consideration that you have.

I agree with much of what has already been said, but I think this quote from Thing2 sums it up for me:

Date: 11/2/2008 8:06:40 PM
Author: thing2of2
What exactly was Obama evasive about? I wasn''t as wrapped up in the election at first so I really don''t know. If he was dismissive of his Ayers connection, well, it seems to me that it wasn''t much of a relationship, so I don''t see the problem there. As for Wright, I agree with what others have said that yes, he''s a little crazy, but he doesn''t really offend me.

As for why I''m voting for Obama: I agree with him on many, many issues. It''s obvious that he''s the most qualified, well-prepared candidate. He has the ability to bring people together in a way that would be very helpful for our country right now.

And even if I wasn''t won over by Obama, I couldn''t possibly vote for McCain, based on the disorganized and offensive campaign he''s run, as well as his VP pick. I also couldn''t not vote based on a few of anyone''s past associations. In my opinion, the sad state of our country at this moment is really just too important to sit this election out.

I feel exactly the same way. No, Obama isn''t perfect. Just like every other candidate who has ever run for President in the history of this country, he is just a human being, with all the flaws and imperfections and mistakes that go along with that. However, I think the good in him far outweighs the bad.

As I have said before, you have every right to abstain from voting or write in the candidate of your choice if that is what truly feels right to you. But, the fact is, either Obama or McCain is going to be our next President. I''m sure you would like to have a say in who that person is.

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Ellen!

I also admire your honesty and willingness to THINK CAREFULLY through this major decision. Do you feel that the responders have sufficiently addressed your concerns of Obama''s "questionable friendships"? It might help us addressing your concerns better if you share with us what you think of the responses you have read.
Take care and thanks for allowing us an opportunity to express ourselves and our views.
Zhuzhu

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

To add to the Ayers thing, I have friends who are part of the academic community in Chicago and over there, people truly don''t see Ayers as anything but an academic. Until this election, one of the faculty in the anthro dept at UIC I know who is younger than Obama didn''t even know he had been a radical before she was born because that is not the reputation he has had in Chicago for many, many years.
Here is a well known professor and respected scholar who lives in the same neighborhood as Obama and works in some of the same charities as Obama whom the locals respect. When he saw this guy around, that is who he say not a terrorist from when he was 7. Ask anyone about it in Chicago and they would tell you Ayers is a non-issue and so Obama probably didn''t think it really was one.

 

[movie zombie]

the friends of mccain scare me more. and i can''t get past his treatment of women.

movie zombie

ps not a big obama fan either but mccain just chills me to the bone.

 

[JulieN]

The language is a little bit difficult, but you get into the swing of it after the first few sentences, and it's very funny.

Certainly, my endorsement has raised more than a few eyebrows around the National Topsider water cooler, particularly among the alumni of jejune cow colleges like Michigan or Dartmouth. They sometimes point to Mr. Obama's radical Rolodex and his hooey about "wealth redistribution" and "dictatorship of the proletariat." But, as I patiently explain, this is precisely the point - it is hooey, over-the-top rhetorical flourishes obviously designed by Mr. Obama to win over benighted inner city hoi polloi (a feat, I might add, that even the Great Communicator himself was unable to accomplish). As for his so-called radical ties, who among us hasn't sent dinner party invitations to Gore Vidal and a leftwing terrorist or two to enliven the postprandial conversation? Leonard Bernstein loved hosting all manner of Weathermen and Black Panthers and Symbionese Liberation Army celebrities at his Park Avenue pied a terre, but it didn't mean the Maestro wasn't in favor of low taxes. On the contrary; I know for a fact he itemized every cent of the catering bills for his famous terrorist cocktail parties.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/10/as-a-conservative-i-must-say-i-do-quite-like-the-cut-of-this-obama-fellows-jib.html

 

[VRBeauty]

Ellen: I can''t offer much, but here is my 2 cents worth.

I have serious reservations about the senior pastor at my church. I won''t go into why except to say that they are very serious, many people I respect have left for another church because of him, and I''ve been tempted to do the same. In fact I''ve been playing "hookey" more often than not for the past few years. I probably should look for another church but I can''t -- the people in that church are my family, and the church is so much more than that one individual. I don''t know if Obama''s church works the same way -- it''s possible that the Rev. Wright "is" the church more than is the case where I attend. But it''s also possible that the church is about more than just the pastor. And as others have said, America is not perfect and I don''t think it''s treasonous to say so, even from a pulpit.

Obama served on a committee with William Ayers. I''ve mentioned before that I''ve served on committees that were responsible for lots of things, including doling out large sums of money. My main concerns about my fellow committee members are: are they properly appointed, do they identify and recuse themselves when they might have a conflict of interest, do they "play well" with the rest of the committee (allow everyone to have their say etc), do they bring enough knowlege and time to the table to carry their share of the load. BTW I''ve served with one or two people who made political decisions somewhere outside of that committee that I don''t agree with... but it would be silly and short-sighted of me (and I wouldn''t be doing my job) to resign from a committee because of this.

If anyone tried to smear my reputation because of associations like this I probably wouldn''t respond either. It''s not because I have anything to hide, but I wouldn''t want to give such arguments credibility by responding to them.

McCain''s pick of Sarah Palin as his running mate raised a serious red flag to me. Initially I just thought it was a stupid move -- a very poorly thought out political gamble. I got angrier as I got to know more about her. She is woefully unprepared to be President and seems to have such limited intellectual curiosity that she will never be prepared -- yet McCain was willing to take that chance so he could get some votes from the far right of his party (people who would eventually hold their noses and vote for him anyway). The economic woes we''re in are another reason I couldn''t vote for McCain. I believe that a lot of the problems we''re dealing with now can be laid at the doorstep of the GOP and its deregulation dogma, and McCain was a part of that.

Good luck with your struggle. I hope you find your way to your polling place on Tuesday no matter who you decide to vote for.

 

[swimmer]

Hi Ellen,
I think I can understand your frustration and searching for something deeper, personally; I''ve usually voted against someone rather than for a candidate. Sad state of affairs when it boils down to that. I wish that I could give you some of the passion and excitement that I experienced at the DNC convention in Boston more than 4 years ago when a skinny black guy got up to speak. Like most everyone else there, I had never heard of this law professor from Chicago who was running for the Senate, but when he spoke, I knew he felt my fears for the future, I saw the best that this country can produce and I knew that Barak Hussain Obama was going to be instrumental in building up our fine country in the post Bush years. Of course, then I thought that Kerry could win...but I was voting for him out of hatred for Bush. Its not a fun vote to cast, so again, I feel for your plight. Heck, I used to work for Al Gore and didn''t think at the time that he was very inspiring...he has since found his voice. I don''t know how to address your concerns about Obama''s honesty. I think he has been honest and open with things that many of us never have to really think about, esp on a national stage. Surfgirl really hit the nail on the head, as usualy. I mean, I should confess that my college roommate did cocaine, but it just doesn''t feel relevant and we were assigned randomly, sure I learned many things from her, but does that association really define me? I love that it is now a crime on Fox news to either be a community organizer, aka lead grassroots movements, or to associate with people with whom you disagree. Jefferson was a big fan of both you know. I think you can examine the campaigns and really see how the candidate would lead. McCain has spewed vile hatred or worse, not condemned it when he saw it, or even nastier, condemned the wrong aspect of the hatred. He has thrown mud just hoping something would stick, no rhyme, no reason, no plan of his own or anything to stand behind or even for.

Obama has rallied people who have never believed that they had a stake in our country and those who are most invested in the system and gotten them invested and involved in planning a future for our country. I am so amazed everytime I volunteer for Obama, to hear the stories of elderly ladies in NH who admit that they had never thought much of "Negro men" but that he just gives them hope that the future will be better that the past eight years...I just get teared up thinking about the role of the US in the world... I hate that we have been such a hideous bully, just like a big old bull in a china shop with no real understanding just reacting and destroying.

I don''t know how old you are Ellen, but McCain wasn''t around to see the US turn against the Vietnam war, he still thinks and has made it clear that if he had been in his father''s position (head of Pacific) during Vietnam, he would have used overwhelming power to "win" in Vietnam. Aside from killing every man woman and child in SE Asia, what would "winning" look like? Overwhelming force didn''t work in Vietnam (or Cambodia) certainly won''t work in Iraq or Afghanistan. Winning over the hearts and minds of locals so that they don''t join fluid and difficult to identify insurgencies is more complex and difficult than "bombing someone back into the stone age." Obama understands this complexity, he seeks out the grey in situations and is capable of making difficult decisions that are not based on re-fighting old wars or settling old scores. He is brilliant at negotiating, at bringing diverse opinions to the table, he appeals to peoples'' greatest good, not fear. I am bursting with pride that I have the honor and privilege to vote for Senator Barak Obama for President of the US of A.

I hope that some of us will be able to spread that feeling to you. If that is not possible, find a local candidate to support, or research all of your ballot initiatives. Either way, thanks for reading this, I''m to teared up to edit for content or clarity. To me Obama is our only hope after 8 years of living with fear-mongering xenophobia; we need hope, love, and charity more than ever.

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Ladies,

I am really touched by reading your responses to Ellen.
May I have your permission to post your writing (w/ credit to you of course) on my personal blog?

Zhuzhu

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 11/2/2008 10:47:48 PM
Author: zhuzhu
Hi Ladies,

I am really touched by reading your responses to Ellen.
May I have your permission to post your writing (w/ credit to you of course) on my personal blog?

Zhuzhu

Zhu, I don''t think I said anything all that great, so you probably didn''t mean me in your post above. But, if you do find something of mine that you''d like to use for your blog, you''re more than welcome to do so! Can we have the link to your blog? I''d love to read it!

 

[AprilBaby]

Sen Obama has been my Senator for several years now. We live in the Chicago suburbs...nearly 100% Republican. At the primary a lot of us were ashamed to ask for Democratic ballots because we are SUPPOSED to vote Republican. (we can crossover at the primary) Turns out 65% of us voted for Obama. There must be a reason? He is an effective senator, a truly nice and honest man...really misrepresented by the media...and we NEVER heard of Bill Ayers until Hillary brought it up. Ayers is a respected teacher at a prominent university with good credentials so the university must not have a problem with him? I am sure someone from Arizona could give us a better description of McCain than I hear from the media. Don't believe everything you see on TV. Obama is a really wonderful man personally. 100% Republican supporting Obama! (last time I voted democtatic for ANYTHING was Jimmy Carter)
PS....what about him do you think he is dishonest about? He explained Bill Ayeres and Rev Wright...)

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 11/2/2008 10:52:49 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 11/2/2008 10:47:48 PM

Author: zhuzhu

Hi Ladies,


I am really touched by reading your responses to Ellen.

May I have your permission to post your writing (w/ credit to you of course) on my personal blog?


Zhuzhu

Zhu, I don''t think I said anything all that great, so you probably didn''t mean me in your post above. But, if you do find something of mine that you''d like to use for your blog, you''re more than welcome to do so! Can we have the link to your blog? I''d love to read it!

Irishgirl,
You are too modest! You are not only a informative contributor on the forum, but your writing often expresses a thoughtful and caring personality that I find really charming! I love reading what you have to say!

My blog is designed as a hub for my close family and friends to share pictures and my daily life events. For that reason I am too embarrassed to put it out for public''s viewing! Thanks for asking though! I will be so proud to share the beautiful writings from you ladies with my families/friends.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 11/2/2008 11:12:34 PM
Author: zhuzhu

Irishgirl,
You are too modest! You are not only a informative contributor on the forum, but your writing often expresses a thoughtful and caring personality that I find really charming! I love reading what you have to say!

My blog is designed as a hub for my close family and friends to share pictures and my daily life events. For that reason I am too embarrassed to put it out for public''s viewing! Thanks for asking though! I will be so proud to share the beautiful writings from you ladies with my families/friends.

Aww, Zhu! Thanks for the kind words . . . you''re making me blush!

And I totally understand why you wouldn''t want to post that blog for just anyone to see. My family has a similar blog, and I wouldn''t feel comfortable posting it here either!

 

[Rank Amateur]

The thing that should upset people about Ayers is that he is un-repentant about his terrorist activities. Obama''s friendship with him shows poor judgement.

Reverend Wright''s comments are not so remarkable in my mind. 95% bravado. Obama should have been a man and stood next to his friend rather than throwing the guy under the bus to get votes. Same old same old for the true politician.

 

[MoonWater]

There are so many wonderful posts in this thread I don''t think I can add to it. Bravo!

Rank Amateur, I think with Rev. Wright it wasn''t just Obama being a typical politician and getting rid of him. I think he was truly hurt by what Wright started doing. It was like he was intentionally trying to hurt Obama because he was more concerned about his own ego. That''s not a friend you should stand by. I remember Obama''s face when he had to distance himself, he looked so pained. I believe it was like deco said, he was looking for black role models and he probably looked up to Wright at some point only to be disappointed like he was with his father. It really seemed to be a sad situation.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 11/3/2008 12:15:30 AM
Author: Rank Amateur
The thing that should upset people about Ayers is that he is un-repentant about his terrorist activities. Obama''s friendship with him shows poor judgement.


Reverend Wright''s comments are not so remarkable in my mind. 95% bravado. Obama should have been a man and stood next to his friend rather than throwing the guy under the bus to get votes. Same old same old for the true politician.

Funny, that''s EXACTLY what Palin did with her church.

And Irish, I doubt you wanted to use my stuff either, but you are welcome to it if you do

 

[panda08]

I know you''ve struggled with your decision on who to support and whether you even want to vote. I am glad to hear that you are thinking about casting a ballot. I''ve lurked on this forum for awhile now, reading with great interest the viewpoints on the broad issues this presidential campaign has raised. I concur with the many wonderful posts about why Obama may have associated with certain people and why he is the better choice for president. I honestly haven''t done enough to demonstrate my support for Obama and just wanted to de-lurk briefly with the hopes that I can add to this conversation and perhaps persuade you to vote for him.

I agree that honesty is an important characteristic in a leader. I think one of the reasons Obama may have been less than forthright about Ayers and Wright has to do with the fact that political discourse in this country has been reduced to sound bites that do not lend to nuanced positions. Just the fact that Obama knows them is sufficient for his opponents to paint him with the broad brush of anti-Americanism or having poor judgment based on their objectionable conduct/opinions. I don''t think that even if Obama elaborated early on about these associations, explained why it is important to listen to different points of view and stated how associating with someone does not mean you embrace their opinions or ratify their conduct, that would appease those who cannot see any room for discussion. It would satisfy those like you who have an appreciation for such things, but continued dwelling on the subject would only provide fodder to those who do not and distract from the other issues in the campaign.

When I watched Obama''s speech at the 2004 DNC, I cried. It was the first time that I felt that a politician understood this country''s frustrations and expressed the hope for a future of inclusiveness and cooperation. Afterwards, I told my friends that he would be our next president.

In February 2007, I volunteered at an Obama rally and had the honor of shaking his hand. When people ask me why I support him, I tell them many things but at base, I support him because I truly believe that his heart is in the right place. He chose not to pursue opportunities for personal fortune and has used his given talents for the greater good. The life he''s led shows that he''s walked the walk and that he doesn''t just talk the talk. He has brought people together, inspired greater participation, and demonstrated the ability to lead. As he said, he is not a perfect man and will not be a perfect president. But based on what I''ve learned, I have little doubt that he will govern this country with grace, intelligence and thoughtfulness, something this country desperately needs.