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Newsweek article about diamonds

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FireGoddess

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Very interesting and fascinating. Was the linked text the same as the article coming out on 2/14?
 

Patty

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Apollo plans to sell them for 10 to 30% less than the mined diamonds?

Shouldn''t it be much less than the real deal?

And...I admit I skimmed the article, but have they perfected the technology to create good sized colorless stones?
 

DiamondExpert

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Thanks for the link - I don''t see anything new here, and a lot which will mislead the public into thinking that synthetic diamonds are widely available, which simply isn''t yet true.

There is little, if any, availablilty of colorless synthetics of 3/4ct. and above - and certainly no selection.

Stones in this size are mpstly colored yellow, yellow orange, blue, greenish blue, and the colors do not look natural (too saturated, etc.) and these are fairly easy to spot as synthetics due to the type of inclusions, fluorescence, etc.

I''ve seen some pretty, and well cut yellow, yellow-orange stones, but again the color does not look like a natural colored diamond, and the selection is vanishingly small.

This will change over time as the production ramps up, and becomes more cost effective. Also, someone will improve on size, and the prices will come down, and they will begin to take a larger market share.

However, the question is whether or not the end user will prefer the synthetic over the natural for a diamond any more than they do for emerald, ruby, sapphire, etc., where there is massive synthetic availability...some will, some won''t.

One problem for the trade will be the ability to distinguish natural from synthetic stones, which is not yet a widespread problem but something that needs attention.
 

peptidbond

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Date: 2/9/2005 12:19:29 PM
Author: Patty
Apollo plans to sell them for 10 to 30% less than the mined diamonds?

Shouldn''t it be much less than the real deal?

And...I admit I skimmed the article, but have they perfected the technology to create good sized colorless stones?
I cannot say for cetain, but I can repeat what I read in a similar article in Wired magazine from some time back (I am sure you are all familiar with it by now). From the description in Wired of Apollo''s process, it sounds as though they are able to create gem quality diamonds in the most common sizes. The diamonds are supposed to turn out perfectly flawless and perfectly colorless. Where this is the case or not, I am not certain. Some have questioned the facts in the Wired article (from a biased standpoint or not).

As for Apollo''s process, they use chemical vapor deposition. Basically, the heat carbon until it reaches the fourth state of matter - plasma. Under enormous heat and pressure, the plasma floats in a chamber as a cloud. They then slowly lower the heat and pressure until the plasma literally rains down on a diamond "seed" crystal or substrate. The new carbon binds with the base and begins to form new diamond. The theory is that if you can control the temp/pressure accurately enough, you can also control the rate at which the new diamond grows, and hence its quality. Supposedly, Apollo can to this.

I am actually more interested in Apollo''s real business idea - Diamond semi-conductors. Just imagine a 30Ghz (sorry, I am more of a tech nut and less of a diamond nut).
 

peptidbond

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Date: 2/9/2005 12:39:55 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
Thanks for the link - I don''t see anything new here, and a lot which will mislead the public into thinking that synthetic diamonds are widely available, which simply isn''t yet true.

There is little, if any, availablilty of colorless synthetics of 3/4ct. and above - and certainly no selection.

Stones in this size are mpstly colored yellow, yellow orange, blue, greenish blue, and the colors do not look natural (too saturated, etc.) and these are fairly easy to spot as synthetics due to the type of inclusions, fluorescence, etc.

I''ve seen some pretty, and well cut yellow, yellow-orange stones, but again the color does not look like a natural colored diamond, and the selection is vanishingly small.

This will change over time as the production ramps up, and becomes more cost effective. Also, someone will improve on size, and the prices will come down, and they will begin to take a larger market share.

However, the question is whether or not the end user will prefer the synthetic over the natural for a diamond any more than they do for emerald, ruby, sapphire, etc., where there is massive synthetic availability...some will, some won''t.

One problem for the trade will be the ability to distinguish natural from synthetic stones, which is not yet a widespread problem but something that needs attention.
Regarding color, are you sure that you are thinking of Apollo and not Gemesis? Gemesis is know for thier colored diamonds. They process they use is not favorable to colorless stones. Apollo on the other hand uses a new, and entirely different technique.

This is more of a question than anything. As stated above, I am just going off of what I read in the Wired article. I have no personal experience whatsoever.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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As gary say''s, whats new?
This is the same story since 1955. We are still waiting.

Did anyone ever bother to think that the cost (actually sale price) of rough diamonds at mine production is is around $8billion and final retail at $60Billion.

So if they produces the rough for $2Billion then the polished sells for 60-6 = $54Billion?

It still needs to be graded, sold to cutters, cut and polished, graded, marketed, set and sold.

Wake up folks - the story is a beat up

it costs a few $ a barrel to produce oil
 

didiamond

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Date: 2/9/2005 12:19:29 PM
Author: Patty
Apollo plans to sell them for 10 to 30% less than the mined diamonds?

Shouldn''t it be much less than the real deal?
That was my sentiment exactly Patty!


firegoddess...I''m not sure. My DH read this on msnbc yesterday and forwarded it to me. It looks like it''s going to in next week''s issue but I don''t know if this is the full article.
 

fuffi

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I have the 2/14 Newsweek and this article''s not in it. I did notice the MSNBC link says Newsweek International.
 

DiamondExpert

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Peptide - Yes, I was smushing the two sources/techniques together.

The point is that colorless and colored synthetics are really not available yet in any quantity in sizes to be competitive with their respective natural markets -the operative word is yet, but this will still take several years!

However, I do see improvements every year, and this year Gemesis is coming in with some pink and red stones, and improved blues, produced by HPHT followed by annealing and irradiation. Last year they had only a few great looking yellow/orangish yellow rounds cut to AGS0 proportions, and a few really unslghtly blues.

I have found more folks are asking about synthetics all the time (some just out of curiosity), so while the ground is only vibrating intermittently, it isn''t yet time to hold your breath for a stampede to synthetics...but slowly, as availability increases, interest will peak. Beyond that, where any color of any size, color and clarity become widely available, we will see if the market falls apart and prices plummet like the colored stone synthetics...only time will tell.

Incidently, I will get a close look at some Gemesis red/pink and yellows next week, just to see how they are coming along, and because public interest is increasing in this area...hmmmm another niche to develop?
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 2/9/2005 12:19:29 PM
Author: Patty
Apollo plans to sell them for 10 to 30% less than the mined diamonds?

Shouldn''t it be much less than the real deal?

And...I admit I skimmed the article, but have they perfected the technology to create good sized colorless stones?
no way i would ever buy a man make one at only 30% less or for that matter even at 60% less......Ain''t nothing like the real thing baby,ain''t nothing like the real thing.
 

Patty

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Date: 2/9/2005 8:59:16 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/9/2005 12:19:29 PM
Author: Patty
Apollo plans to sell them for 10 to 30% less than the mined diamonds?

Shouldn''t it be much less than the real deal?

And...I admit I skimmed the article, but have they perfected the technology to create good sized colorless stones?
no way i would ever buy a man make one at only 30% less or for that matter even at 60% less......Ain''t nothing like the real thing baby,ain''t nothing like the real thing.
The kind people at DeBeers would like to thank you for this sentiment.
 

strmrdr

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I think they are missing the boat targeting the larger diamond size market.
They would find better acceptance producing red, blue, yellow and orange side stone diamonds up to .33ct than 1ct main stones.
Optimize it to produce 5 to 10 smaller diamonds per run.
Then once they are accepted and the tech improves move up into the larger stone market.
The would also likely be hot in the bracelet, rhr and pendant market.
 

Mara

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haha I tend to agree with you VT...and it has nothing to do with DB and their marketing..I just prefer the real thing, like a real LV bag.
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but it was funny, a year ago or so when that Wired article came out...there was a poll on here (maybe I started it?) about real vs Gemesis and it was pretty much split down the middle!

i was surprised at those results, because no way would i pay 10-30% less for a faketyfakefake...I don''t care if its technically the real thing, I want my diamond to be mined from the earth!! for whatever reason the mental picture of forking out 7k for a lab-grown diamond by geekylabstudent vs 10k for a real one where there was actually some work involved to get to it....to me growing the diamond in the lab isn''t worth 7k!

rationale is a beautiful, beautiful thing!!
41.gif
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 2/9/2005 9:33:20 PM
Author: Mara
haha I tend to agree with you VT...and it has nothing to do with DB and their marketing..I just prefer the real thing, like a real LV bag.
9.gif


but it was funny, a year ago or so when that Wired article came out...there was a poll on here (maybe I started it?) about real vs Gemesis and it was pretty much split down the middle!

i was surprised at those results, because no way would i pay 10-30% less for a faketyfakefake...I don''t care if its technically the real thing, I want my diamond to be mined from the earth!! for whatever reason the mental picture of forking out 7k for a lab-grown diamond by geekylabstudent vs 10k for a real one where there was actually some work involved to get to it....to me growing the diamond in the lab isn''t worth 7k!

rationale is a beautiful, beautiful thing!!
41.gif
yeah,for 7k i can buy 3/4 lb worth of interlaps from Wink.
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i bought a bunch of them and give them out to my nieces as gifts. there''s no way i would wear a fake diamond ,why try to fool others?.
 

peptidbond

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Date: 2/9/2005 8:59:16 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

no way i would ever buy a man make one at only 30% less or for that matter even at 60% less......Ain''t nothing like the real thing baby,ain''t nothing like the real thing.
Funny, I feel the opposite. I am in my late 20''s and many people my age feel the same about these new synthetics. I did an informal poll of my peers at home and at work an they seem to think the same thing. Given the question "Would you by a synthetic diamond if it were the real thing and nothing separates it from a mined diamond", nearly all answered yes. I didn''t even make a statement about price. As the Wired article noted in its more formal poll, people my age find the tech, um, cool! I must agree. HPHT does not interest me that much. However, the chemical vapor deposition process that Apollo uses does interest me. Maybe it is just the relation between the jewel diamond and the semi-conductor diamond that I find so interesting. I am a techie afterall.

Plus, I really hate monopolies. DeBeers, and the fact that no one has really acted on their monopoly, bothers me to know end. The way they behave towards the market and new, developing companies (i.e. the new Canadian miners) is just disgusting.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 2/10/2005 11:11
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1 AM
Author: peptidbond

Date: 2/9/2005 8:59:16 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

no way i would ever buy a man make one at only 30% less or for that matter even at 60% less......Ain''t nothing like the real thing baby,ain''t nothing like the real thing.
Funny, I feel the opposite. I am in my late 20''s and many people my age feel the same about these new synthetics. I did an informal poll of my peers at home and at work an they seem to think the same thing. Given the question ''Would you by a synthetic diamond if it were the real thing and nothing separates it from a mined diamond'', nearly all answered yes. I didn''t even make a statement about price. As the Wired article noted in its more formal poll, people my age find the tech, um, cool! I must agree. HPHT does not interest me that much. However, the chemical vapor deposition process that Apollo uses does interest me. Maybe it is just the relation between the jewel diamond and the semi-conductor diamond that I find so interesting. I am a techie afterall.

Plus, I really hate monopolies. DeBeers, and the fact that no one has really acted on their monopoly, bothers me to know end. The way they behave towards the market and new, developing companies (i.e. the new Canadian miners) is just disgusting.
now tell your peers the cost of these synthetics is only 30% less than the real diamonds,then you might get a different answer.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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1. Appollo diamonds are type II - only a small 1-2% of natural colorless diamonds are type II and most of them are treated anyway.

2. a type II diamond spotter costs $75 and can be used by a monkey - it is very simple science.

3. the onus will be on owners of supposed natural type II diamonds to prove by paying for $100 testing that their stone is natural.

4. checking will be no more difficult than that of checking gold standards by authorities.

5. it remains to be seen that applool are not just trying to raise investor capitol.

6. this article contains nothing new from last septembers wired article

7. it seems to prove that journalism has not improved past the point that many journo''s want to write beat up stories to get headlines and do not really care to find out what / why / when and where if the answers kill their story.
 

glamgirl

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To me, a Beautifully cut diamond from the earth is like a fossil, that has come to life! I would NOT want nothing less for a center stone. But..... give me a bunch of small brilliant cut pink, or blue, appollo stones for my mounting, and I think that would be spectacular! A dream come true for those who could never even come close to owning a rare colored diamond!
 
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