Looking for Eye Clean Princess Cut.

[scooby]

Hi,

I''m considering this diamond. Can someone give me their opinion on it? I mainly want a Ideal cut, Color D, E, or F, and Eye Clean. The GIA report says there are some Crystal, Feather and Indentation. Should I worry about that? btw how does the Table and Depth looks? Is the Cut ok?

http://www.uniondiamond.com/loose-diamonds/2.00ct-E-SI1-GIA-Princess-Select-Ideal-CUT-14275.html#

Shape: Princess
Cut: Select Ideal™
Carat: 2.00
Color: E
Clarity: SI1

Thanks,

Scooby

 

[oldminer]

It may bea very nice diamond. It does not have the kind of documentation required for generally calling it an "Ideal Cut". The use of "Select Ideal(tm)" as used by this vendor is at the edge or over the edge of not being fair to consumers.

The is how they define their proprietary "Select Ideal(tm):

Cut: Select Ideal™
This diamonds proportions are so exact that it has been classified as a Select Ideal™ Cut by expert Gemologists. Its cut ensures the maximum fire and brilliance. Nearly all light that enters our Select Ideal™ Cut diamond is reflected from facet to facet, and then back to the top of the diamond which produces maximum brilliance, fire and beauty.Select Ideal™ Cuts can only be found at Union Diamond
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think this sort of sales pitch may mislead some consumers into the belief that Union DIamond is using an accepted industry standard grading system versus what they actually are doing, using an expert gemologist''s judgment.

Again, it could be a really nice stone worthy of consideration. It probably is eye clean like you want and may be reasonably well cut and beautiful. Just don''t get excited about it being called "Ideal Select" as that terminology is open to reasonable questions.

From what I have seen of the new AGS Ideal Cut princess stones, this diamond is too shallow to meet their performance level. Also, the thick girdle may be a further indicator of less ability to perform.

In all fairness to the vendor, these Ideal Select stones may be among the best of those they have or those thay have been able to buy in the past several months. It may be worth the money and pretty. I hope this posting will seem fair to all.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

I'd want to see a photo.

As a general rule, when companies claim to have some sort of system to call the cut "Ideal" it reminds me a smoke and mirrors- Notwithstanding the new ( and contested) AGS standards: in the trade, the general consensus is that there is NO such a thing as "An Ideal Cut Princess Cut"

 

[oldminer]

As much as the trade wishes it would just go away, there now are Ideal Princess Cut diamonds as defined by AGS, ImaGem technology and BrillianceScope. It won''t be long until most standard shapes are well defined not only for a visually appealing shape, but also for light performance.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Dave- what if knowledgable folks disagree with AGS''s standards?

71% is too shallow???? I know a LOT of cutters and dealers that would disagree with that fact.

It''s been - what, over 25 years since "Ideal" round diamonds have been on the market- and till this day, MANY knowledgable folks in the trade STILL consider the term "Ideal" to be a selling technique, nothing more.
Not every cutter or dealer loved these "Ideal" cuts - or thought they looked better than 60/60 when Ideal first came out- and this situation STILL exists to this day.
If you consider GIA''s upcoming cut grade- it obliterates AGS''s old ideas about table and depth

 

[kenny]

David, why would the trade wish these new light performanced based standards for princesses would just go away?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Kenny,
You''re probably talking to the "other David"- but the way I see it, AGS just wishes eveyone would conform with thier veiwpoint- which is NOT going to happen.

 

[kenny]

Online shopping is difficult for us non-experts for round stones, but much more difficult for other cuts.

Tools like IS photos, BS, ISEE, Sarin Reports help a lot.

Knowing which labs have tighter standards helps too.

If we all had an pdrofessional's experienced eye we wouldn't need all this but if I were shopping online for a princess today it would be and AGS 0.
I believe it increases the chances for good light performance.

I am not going to just trust the seller's eye.

 

[scooby]

I havn''t had any success finding any stores that Sell AGS 0 Princess Cuts. Anybody know of any online dealers that sell it?

Thanks,

Scooby

 

[belle]

www.craftedbyinfinity.com you will find a list of dealers there.

 

[oldminer]

David: In my AGA Cut Class system, 71% depth is not too shallow, but I have examined several AGS0 princess cuts in the past few weeks and see all of them are deeper than that. While I like to believe that 71% works for a good compromise, the substantial research that underlies the AGS system is to be believed over my "seat of the pants" observations. My own observations using ImaGem indicate that these AGS0 stones are outperforming other, more typical princess cuts. The truth is that these new cuts are a different approach to cutting a diamond than we ever saw before. I credit light ray tracing and modelling with this advance.

Like you, I agree that the general importance of the term "ideal" is more marketing than an actual standard of absolute importance. The large diamond I bought my wife is a 60/60 round. I find them a super look and excellent value. It is difficult to convince consumers to go with that approach however. Why? Because they remain unsure about the net effects of a compromise.
Yet, we must advance the diamond business into the new age where measures of performance are computed, not declared as a personal opinion. In this way, shoppers may buy a diamond sight unseen and we all know they will be pleased.

The main thing Internet shoppers gain by having real systems for defining high performance and ideal cutting is the assurance of getting a superb diamond. The stones that qualify for "Ideal Cut" under several legitimate modern systems do give consumers this assurance. Some systems are better than others, but none is as much a disaster as the "trust me" model that sellers would love to keep afloat. That boat is slowly sinking..........

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 10/10/2005 2:46:16 PM
Author: kenny
Online shopping is difficult for us non-experts for round stones, but much more difficult for other cuts.

Tools like IS photos, BS, ISEE, Sarin Reports help a lot.

Knowing which labs have tighter standards helps too.

If we all had an pdrofessional's experienced eye we wouldn't need all this but if I were shopping online for a princess today it would be and AGS 0.
I believe it increases the chances for good light performance.

I am not going to just trust the seller's eye.

Kenny- you know little about diamonds- yet you are very willing to accept standards which are controversial ( to say the least) as gospel.....interesting.

This is precisely the point.
If people are not familiar with diamond grading- or judging a diamond's cut- and these ratings make them feel confident, it's a flase confidence.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

David- It''s good we agree that 60/60 to be extremely beautiful- at least you voted with your pocketbook in such a manner.
Why do you consider 60/60 a compromise- any more than a 57table 62 depth is a compromise?

Yet, we must advance the diamond business into the new age where measures of performance are computed, not declared as a personal opinion. In this way, shoppers may buy a diamond sight unseen and we all know they will be pleased.

How can one remove personal feelings about an item which is so personal, so artisitic in nature? Is a Chevy better than a Ford?

I, for one, do not consider someone ( or AGS) calling a diamond "Ideal" to be any guarantee of desirability.

Nor do I feel that buying a diamond somone deemed "Ideal" sight unseen is ANY guaranteee that the person will love the diamond.
This is true with round diamonds, but particularly important when we consider fancy shaped diamonds- these can run the gamut from a rectangular princess cuts, square cushions- all kinds of un-classifyable shapes and ideas in the transforming a rough diamond into a polished gem.

Are you "wrong" if you love a rectangular princess cut?

 

[oldminer]

David: You ask several questions in your posting, so I will quote for clarity in addressing them:

"Why do you consider 60/60 a compromise- any more than a 57table 62 depth is a compromise?"
I feel the Tolkowsky model and now newer versions of it, do provide greater light return than most 60/60 stones. Some 60/60's are very nice and experts would love them. However, how does the industry convince e-shoppers that each one they say looks fine actually is that way. So many dealers exaggerate what they see. To them, every diamond is "fine". When we have standards, then diamonds which meet those standards can fairly be represented as meeting them. If the standards are sound, then the consumer is well served. If the standards have loopholes, then the consumer can get shafted by someone out to make sales at the expense of honesty. The old AGS 0 round standards were full of loopholes. Hopefully, they will not have the same problem going forward.

How can one remove personal feelings about an item which is so personal, so artisitic in nature? Is a Chevy better than a Ford?
Chevys and Fords are different in name only. Neither represents an ultimate situation. If one looks to cars for an analogy, then compare a Bentley to a Rolls Royce, if we are talking about the unquestioned "Best" cars. If we want the best performing cars we may have to switch to McClaren or Ferrari F40 to make comparisons. If we want the most utilitarian we may need to go into Hummer 1 or Land Rover. It is essential that everyone understand the FINAL decision of what to purchase in a diamond is the right of the buyer. Our obligation is to provide proper descriptions to color/clarity/fluorescence, weight, shape and light performance. Their obligation is to THINK and make a decision that suits their personality and wallet. If a consumer has a Chevy or Ford budget, they cannot hope to play with the heavy hitters without giving up some major compromises. They can buy a finely cut stone, but it won't be large and/or D-IF.

I, for one, do not consider someone ( or AGS) calling a diamond "Ideal" to be any guarantee of desirability.
You may well be right on this score, but will the trade accept your point of view or go with the flow? From what I have seen of the new AGS0 princess cut, your opinion may alter over time. I am sure you will look at this issue differently once there is a normal supply of these diamonds and the damand from the public increases. To say that you and a few of the other dealers don't believe in it sounds like a poor game plan, even if you are right. Business sometimes requires adopting the strategy of the powerful. Being a voice in the wilderness is entertaining, but not generally financially rewarding.

Nor do I feel that buying a diamond somone deemed "Ideal" sight unseen is ANY guaranteee that the person will love the diamond.
I'd be inclined to agree with this as a generality, but the AGS 0 princess cuts that I have seen all look excellent. They also score quite well, in general, on the ImaGem unit. Some score better than others, but that is to be expected. AGS and ImaGem have gone about their research independently. Lots of people do not like the idea of only picking a single diamond in the first place. Even when a diamond is absolutely wonderful, some people would prefer to shop in a B&M store to see a selection in person, and then make their choice.

Are you "wrong" if you love a rectangular princess cut?
Lastly, no one is saying a rectangular princess cut is a mistake. AGS is not prepared to grade them at this time. My own reasearch would indicate they will have a different level of light performance potential than square ones, but the choice of this is up to an informed consumer. I expect to be able to compare rectangular princess cuts to square and rectangular stones and come up with performance measures. It won't hurt the sale of diamonds to know for certain that a particular diamond is a good performer. No doubt, the better looking ones will outsell the less good looking ones. There may be some that need to be recut to look pretty enough. That's time consuming and costly. The other alternative it to reduce the price or sell them to people who are more impulsive and less well informed. It isn't the end of the world, but change is all around us.

 

[belle]

david, i just do not understand you.
actually, i don't think you want to be understood..you just want to be controversial. fine. i'll play your game.
you talk about how you think 60/60 (no, not all...of course, you don't have to pick apart my words..you know what i mean) diamonds are beautiful. you use your own eyes as a standard and expect your customers to trust your taste, yet you want to say that trusting a standardized grading system doesn't guarantee desirability. what? why do you think jewelers for the past, however many, years have been ranked right up there with used car salesmen as the least trustworthy in any industry? ags is giving consumers a form of guarantee and trust that has been lacking for many years and jewelers that don't want to accept this standardization that is reassuring to customers are thinking of only themselves and their product. you can't have it both ways.

(eta: for those following along, since there are two davids in this thread, any posts by me to 'david' are directed to dbl and those to 'dave' will be for oldminer.)

 

[Kaleigh]

Very well said belle!!!! I couldn''t agree more.

 

[moremoremore]

Scooby- I just wanted to add a couple of points.

You'd have to see the diamond yourself to determine if it's "eye clean"...it all depends on your vision and what you determine "eye clean" means...

Also, you need to decide if you want a piece of paper and a grade or a stone that is well cut (no matter what I insist on that) and looks beautiful to you and has the spread you want and the fire you want and scintillation you want...your definition of ideal may include a stone at a good price and that sparkles like made to you... To accomplish this, you should go look at a lot of princess stones and/or use a vendor who will know what your goals are! Buying a princess stone from a piece of paper is just not going to work...

 

[kenny]

David of DBL wrote:
"Kenny- you know little about diamonds- yet you are very willing to accept standards which are controversial ( to say the least) as gospel.....interesting.
This is precisely the point.
If people are not familiar with diamond grading- or judging a diamond's cut- and these ratings make them feel confident, it's a flase confidence."

So David, what is the alternative for the average online buyer?

1. Don't buy anything till you get 30 years of experience in the field.

2. Trust a seller, but only when he says he has a beautitul stone?

3. ESP?

 

[Kaleigh]

Good point kenny.

 

[kenny]

I just had to edit my last post.

I forgot one.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Belle, we can ALL agree that a lot of bull gets thrown around by a lot of salespeople in an effort to sell diamonds- I have heard stories that make your hair stand on end.

Yet I would not think any fair minded person would accuse someone of being a dishonest seller simply because others in the same trade have behaved badly. Just because diamond salesman may have a bad rap, does not mean it''s true in every case.

AGS offers an attractive idea: if one could eliminate any doubt, and therefore this dubious salesman, then the consumer has ultimate power.
Not all AGS0 cut grade stones are as nice as others- a point which on which David agrees with me

David ( me):I, for one, do not consider someone ( or AGS) calling a diamond "Ideal" to be any guarantee of desirability.
(David -Oldminer):You may well be right on this score, but will the trade accept your point of view or go with the flow?

In reality, couldn''t a dishonest seller actually use the AGS 0 grade to sell something that might actualy not be as nice as others with the same grade?


If Dave had a stone in front of him, and told me he considered it a well cut stone with great life- I''d believe him- regardless of whether it was an AGS0 or not.
There are many cutters who''s word I would not accept so easily. Sure, they''ve come up with some awesome stones, but also a few that were supposed to be great that I personally did not like. Other cutters are far more open- if I ask "Is it well cut?"- they kind of hem and haw. "It''s not bad..." or "we-lllll- it''s ok"
Now I know I won''t be knocked over when I see it. Of course these are people I know for quite a while, so I know what to expect.

Most folks buying , they don''t know the seller-which makes Kenny''s question a good one.

Kenny, a good suggestion for shoppers is to do research- find out who you are dealing with. On the web people can complain-on forums such as this one- and also ask questions.

Years ago, there was no alternative for the shopper- a percentage of jewelers who did not have a princess cut, and told the shopper- "They''re no good" - or "They''re way more expensive than rounds" or whatever cock and bull story they could.

Today, there''s a place to ask these questions- in public. This certainly benfits the consumer.
Many of today''s diamond shoppers have used the web to gain a far better leverage in terms of price and information when shopping-
Once you have finally selected a delaer you are comfortable with, trust, but verify.
In many cases, you will know right off if your dimaond is a keeper.
Still I feel sure most people who shop online take the purchase to a third party appraiser to make sure they got what they paid for- once they decide they love it.

Dave- OK- which is better a Bentley or a Rolls?- you never answered the question- how can you standardize something when people''s desires are not standardized?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/10/2005 5:55:51 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren

...how can you standardize something when people''s desires are not standardized?

Not many would ask for somethig they don''t know about. Information does go a long way ''standardizing'' wishes. At least for a while... which may well be good enough, because talk is cheap.

 

[belle]

of course david! surely the problem is the lack of fair minded consumers NOT with the jewelers who, as you said, gave 'whatever crock and bull story they could.'

i'm sorry your thread seems to have been waylaid scooby. in terms of 'eye clean' there are some really good si stones and some not so good si stones. if you want to be absolutely certain you can't see any inclusions, you should look for a stone graded vs by either ags or gia. their strict grading standards (ooohh..standards are good!) will ensure you are getting a clean stone. best of luck to you! i hope you find your perfect princess!

 

[Kaleigh]

Scooby, I do hope you find the eye clean princess that you are looking for. I''m sorry that this thread went the way it did. Let us know how you make out ok???

 

[tareyton]

Scobby,

I purchased and AGS-0 and from my experience if you are going to buy a princess without first seeing it in person AGS-0 is the only way to go.

I am not an expert but did alot of research and probably personally looked at 50 stones. Some non AGS-0 stones were the crappiest things I ever saw some were beautifull and lots were so so. I saw 5 AGS-0 Stones They were all infinity diamonds. They all looked the same and all were beautifull. They were the only stones I saw that all performed great. All other times I went in to a store they took out 5 stones and I had the entire gamut of crap to beautifull. The AGS-0 stones had excellent consistency.

So if you want to spend 4-6 months finding the perfect stone and look at 50 plus consider non AGS-0 stones. Otherwise I personally wouldn''t waste my time and would just go straight for AGS-0 stones.

 

[Hamster]

Scooby-

We bought our AGS 0 Princess cut from Bill Scherlag at Icemine.com. Also, the link to Infinity Diamonds (which are "branded" AGS 0 princesses) posted earlier has a list of other dealers, many of which are hanging around on pricescope (such as Wink and diamondexpert). I think that I also saw some on goodoldgold.com as well.

At any rate, I would discourage you from buying the stone sight unseen. You can ask the dealer to send the stone to an independent appraiser of your choice so that you can check out the stone and make sure that you really like it, even if the stone is AGS 0.