Large certified Paraiba Tourmaline worth it?

[RockHugger]

I have the opportunity to purchase a large (over 8 cts) paraiba tourmaline that is certified for under a 100$. the problem with the stone is it has chips all over it and looks super ugly and needs a recut. I dont know what this person did to this stone. Also, it is an SI2 (or whatever that is in colored gemstones) with some eye visable inclusions. It is from a private person selling off his goods, not a dealer.

Would it be worth the recutting cost? Like I said before, I dont know much about tourmaline values, and expecially paraibas. Except for them everywhere I look now all of a sudden. I thought they were a rare stone! Would this be a good investent after recutting costs and purchase cost?

 

[FrekeChild]

Jewelry should never be bought as an investment IMHO.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 11/23/2009 6:56:48 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Jewelry should never be bought as an investment IMHO.

Amen sister.

 

[cushioncutnut]

Date: 11/23/2009 6:58:31 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 11/23/2009 6:56:48 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Jewelry should never be bought as an investment IMHO.

Amen sister.

I couldn''t agree more!!

 

[LD]

Date: 11/23/2009 7:00:17 PM
Author: cushioncutnut

Date: 11/23/2009 6:58:31 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 11/23/2009 6:56:48 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Jewelry should never be bought as an investment IMHO.

Amen sister.

I couldn''t agree more!!

Yep me too!

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Unless you''re a pawn shop owner I guess

I buy jewelry I love, although if my DH asks, it''s also a good investment

I would want to know which lab gave the certification for the tourmaline. Regardless, if it''s a gem you personally love, and a price you can afford, then you should buy it. There are many on this board who own stones that are included, but still love them. So it''s a personal choice.

 

[RockHugger]

Well I am not against flipping a stone if I can, LOL. I have bought a a few (ok.....alot more then a few) stones (Mainly tanzanite) cheaply with the intent to ''flip'' them and sell them, but I kinda fell in love with them and cant bring myself to sell them. I dont know if the same would happen with this Paraiba LOL.

It is BGL certified. I know BGL is a smaller lab in thialand, but I have researched them and they have recieved good remarks.

 

[T L]

Date: 11/23/2009 6:47:15 PM
Author:Tropicgal10
I have the opportunity to purchase a large (over 8 cts) paraiba tourmaline that is certified for under a 100$. the problem with the stone is it has chips all over it and looks super ugly and needs a recut. I dont know what this person did to this stone. Also, it is an SI2 (or whatever that is in colored gemstones) with some eye visable inclusions. It is from a private person selling off his goods, not a dealer.

Would it be worth the recutting cost? Like I said before, I dont know much about tourmaline values, and expecially paraibas. Except for them everywhere I look now all of a sudden. I thought they were a rare stone! Would this be a good investent after recutting costs and purchase cost?

Do you have a picture? What lab is it certified from? Is the seller reputable?? Do you know them?

Here is a before picture of a 3.5 carat cuprian that I bought on ebay. It is GIT certified as a copper bearing tourmaline, and it was the most horrible native cut imaginable, but it had a very pretty turquoise blue green color typical of Mozambique cuprians. I had it recut, and the stone is lovely, but it also lost a little saturation after the cutting, but it's still a pretty stone. This was also a very clean stone, and if you are considering a recut, it could break.

What is the recutting cost? I can't tell who cut my stone, but cutting fees can be over $150 and way more on very large stones, if you can find someone to recut it. I'm not planning on selling it, but I do think it's more desirable now, even with the slight loss of saturation.

 

[RockHugger]

OOO very pretty! No pic of the stone. It is a local rock . I decided I am going to buy it though and Ill take a pic of it and show you. This one is also a poor native cut. Its an odd cut...the table is deep, so it has a darker ring around the edge of the oval.
I show pics ASAP! BGL is the cert.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 11/23/2009 8:06:04 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
Well I am not against flipping a stone if I can, LOL. I have bought a a few (ok.....alot more then a few) stones (Mainly tanzanite) cheaply with the intent to ''flip'' them and sell them, but I kinda fell in love with them and cant bring myself to sell them. I dont know if the same would happen with this Paraiba LOL.

It is BGL certified. I know BGL is a smaller lab in thialand, but I have researched them and they have recieved good remarks.

Determining that a gem is a Paraiba Tourmaline usually involves 3 steps:

1. Determining that it''s a natural tourmaline
2. Determining that it''s copper-bearing
3. Making a judgement on the color saturation and intensity

I''ve used BGL on a number of occasions. I think they are competent to identify natural tourmaline, but I don''t believe they have the equipment to determine if a gem is copper-bearing. To do that you need a device such as an EDXRF spectrometer that can do chemical composition analysis.

 

[chrono]

My first question and most important question is who certified the stone? Is the lab reputable or some fly by night lab or worse yet, self certified.
The second question is whether it is certified as copper bearing or is truly a glowing neon stone that can be called a Paraiba?
Thirdly, can it even be recut? Since it has a lot of inclusions, you may not be able to cut it at all as the stone may become completely undone. Inclusions can grow during the cutting process because they are stressed. Not to mention, once recut, it tends to lose the saturation of colour and glow, which is what sets the price.

From the sound of it, only buy it if you like it enough to keep it as it is. It is NOT an investment stone from your description.

ETA,
I see that it is a BGL cert. I’m not sure that they are capable of testing for copper content, much less certifying that it is a true Paraiba. Tables are not deep, they are large or small. Pavilions are deep or shallow. From the sound of it, it might be a shallow stone since the colour is concentrated on the outer edges of the stone.

 

[Michael_E]

You guy''s are pretty funny. At under $100 the only things that matter are if the stone is natural, if it''s pretty and if it''s capable of being re-cut without falling apart. Copper content shouldn''t determine if you do this, since any natural tourmaline which is an attractive blue color and can be successfully re-cut, (preferably to at least SI1), is worth far more than $100...even if you have to remove 2/3 of the stone. Take it to a gemologist and have them tell you if it''s natural and go from there.

 

[jstarfireb]

Sounds like it''s a shallow stone with a big window. I would certainly want to verify that it''s natural and amenable to a recut, then go to town! You can''t really beat $100 for that size, so it''s worth taking a chance (but as the others mentioned, buy it because you like it, not as an investment). You''ll lose some carat weight in the recut but most likely end up with a much prettier stone.

 

[chrono]

Date: 11/24/2009 12:27:16 PM
Author: Michael_E
You guy''s are pretty funny. At under $100 the only things that matter are if the stone is natural, if it''s pretty and if it''s capable of being re-cut without falling apart. Copper content shouldn''t determine if you do this, since any natural tourmaline which is an attractive blue color and can be successfully re-cut, (preferably to at least SI1), is worth far more than $100...even if you have to remove 2/3 of the stone. Take it to a gemologist and have them tell you if it''s natural and go from there.

Michael,
Your suggestion is fine but if it is indeed a Paraiba, then it is potentially worth more. If it’s not, then the new owner will know that it cannot be called a Paraiba. She is considering getting this as an investment stone and as such, it becomes important to know if it really IS a Paraiba. Not that I advocate it as an investment stone in the first place.

 

[Stone Hunter]

I''m not sure that she meant investment as in buy low sell high. I think she was wondering if spending $100 was a good idea for a stone of that size that''s so included.

With that in mind I think she should buy it if she likes the color and it''s a natural stone that a cutter thinks can be recut. Ya know if it''s too included or too shallow it can''t be. It should be interesting to see how this stone turns out.

 

[LD]

Date: 11/24/2009 4:09:22 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 11/24/2009 12:27:16 PM
Author: Michael_E
You guy's are pretty funny. At under $100 the only things that matter are if the stone is natural, if it's pretty and if it's capable of being re-cut without falling apart. Copper content shouldn't determine if you do this, since any natural tourmaline which is an attractive blue color and can be successfully re-cut, (preferably to at least SI1), is worth far more than $100...even if you have to remove 2/3 of the stone. Take it to a gemologist and have them tell you if it's natural and go from there.

Michael,
Your suggestion is fine but if it is indeed a Paraiba, then it is potentially worth more. If it’s not, then the new owner will know that it cannot be called a Paraiba. She is considering getting this as an investment stone and as such, it becomes important to know if it really IS a Paraiba. Not that I advocate it as an investment stone in the first place.

I agree. For me, there are too many "ifs" and "buts" that need addressing:

1. Tropic isn't sure this is a Paraiba and has said she's not familiar with it as a gemstone and predominately collects Tanzanite.
2. Tropic will have to spend money getting the gem properly assessed to find out if it's a Paraiba.
3. If it's not then she's potentially bought a gemstone that even if recut may not be worth the money spent on it.
4. If it is a Paraiba then my next question would be why would somebody sell an 8ct Paraiba for under $100?????? Do you know any seller who, sitting on even a horrible Paraiba of over 8ct would let it go for this amount?
5. This gemstone may not even be a good candidate for a re-cut. Not to mention the cost involved which, for that size gem, could be over $200 - that's if she can find somebody to cut it (it's not that easy

)
6. If the aim is to buy for an investment either to keep or to sell later for more than has been spent on it - I'd seriously question that motive. I have 100s of gemstones and only a handful that I would seriously consider to be an "investment" piece and certainly not in my lifetime. They may/may not be an investment for my daughter but certainly won't be for me.
7. Lastly, if Tropic has $100 to risk then fine. However, wouldn't it be better putting that $100 towards a gem without all the above issues? Ok, maybe not as much fun but less risky!

 

[chrono]

LD,
You''ve said it so much better than me. Thank you. You''ve pointed out all the questions swirling around in my head.

 

[RockHugger]

Date: 11/24/2009 4:33:57 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 11/24/2009 4:09:22 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 11/24/2009 12:27:16 PM
Author: Michael_E
You guy's are pretty funny. At under $100 the only things that matter are if the stone is natural, if it's pretty and if it's capable of being re-cut without falling apart. Copper content shouldn't determine if you do this, since any natural tourmaline which is an attractive blue color and can be successfully re-cut, (preferably to at least SI1), is worth far more than $100...even if you have to remove 2/3 of the stone. Take it to a gemologist and have them tell you if it's natural and go from there.

Michael,
Your suggestion is fine but if it is indeed a Paraiba, then it is potentially worth more. If it’s not, then the new owner will know that it cannot be called a Paraiba. She is considering getting this as an investment stone and as such, it becomes important to know if it really IS a Paraiba. Not that I advocate it as an investment stone in the first place.

I agree. For me, there are too many 'ifs' and 'buts' that need addressing:

1. Tropic isn't sure this is a Paraiba and has said she's not familiar with it as a gemstone and predominately collects Tanzanite.
2. Tropic will have to spend money getting the gem properly assessed to find out if it's a Paraiba.
3. If it's not then she's potentially bought a gemstone that even if recut may not be worth the money spent on it.
4. If it is a Paraiba then my next question would be why would somebody sell an 8ct Paraiba for under $100?????? Do you know any seller who, sitting on even a horrible Paraiba of over 8ct would let it go for this amount?
5. This gemstone may not even be a good candidate for a re-cut. Not to mention the cost involved which, for that size gem, could be over $200 - that's if she can find somebody to cut it (it's not that easy

)
6. If the aim is to buy for an investment either to keep or to sell later for more than has been spent on it - I'd seriously question that motive. I have 100s of gemstones and only a handful that I would seriously consider to be an 'investment' piece and certainly not in my lifetime. They may/may not be an investment for my daughter but certainly won't be for me.
7. Lastly, if Tropic has $100 to risk then fine. However, wouldn't it be better putting that $100 towards a gem without all the above issues? Ok, maybe not as much fun but less risky!

1. Its worth it to me to learn about them. Cant learn about other stones by pictures. Its an adventure (see no. 7)
2. Even if its a just normal tourmaline, (not that much money to find out) I would still be happy with it.
3. If its not and is some cheap stone, he said he will give me my money back. AGain, I would be happy with a standard pretty blue tourmaline.
4. If you have never been to michigan, people are selling their underware to make money to pay bills. Noone has the money here to pay 2k for one, so 100 is better then nothing if you are loosing your house/car.
5. I have someone who will recut it in florida. If its not able to be recut, it is a cool stone none the less for the price
6. I dont see anything wrong investing in a stone. Nothing is wrong with enjoying in for a few yrs then selling it IF I choose to (people do it with houses, cars, antiques, ect...why not a stone!)
7. I like adventure . I have hundreds of stones, and I kinda get a thrill finding hidden treasure in an ugly stone!

Hope that clears up some issues.

 

[neatfreak]

Tropic, obviously we aren''t going to convince you. But there is some flawed reasoning with #4 and #6.

#4: If it were really worth thousands-wouldn''t it be worth the 10 minutes it would take someone (even in Michigan) to list it on ebay? Where they could at least get considerably more than $100? Selling it for $100 just makes no sense even if you are desperate for money.

#6: It is unlikely that you will make money back on most stones that you buy. THAT is why you shouldn''t ever consider them an investment because most of the time you only get back 30-50% of what you paid.

 

[RockHugger]

They would never get much more on ebay for it. I have searched ebay many times and the super expensive stones (over 500) go their whole 28 day life untouched. I havnt asked him why he didnt sell it on ebay but that would be my guess and reason I wouldnt list an expensive stone on ebay. Maybe he didnt think about it? I dont know.I do know he isnt some shady scammer who hangs out in allyways selling them from his trunk.

I disagree. I have a couple investment tanzanites that I purchased from a local seller for 5$-50$. My 50$ one appraised for 700$. *If* I did sell it in the future, I wouldnt mind selling it for 3-400$ and make some money off it. Even my ones I paid 5$ for appraised for more then 150$ each. Even if I sold it for 1/2 the appraised value, I would make many times more then I paid. Again, IF. I love all my stones and cant bring myself to sell them. But if I needed to, or decided to I could make a large profit on all of them. Inless of course they find a huge endless supply of tanzanites...then I may be in trouble. The ones I 'may' sell or give to my kids to sell in the future I would never mount so they arnt damaged and loose value.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/24/2009 6:43:34 PM
Author: neatfreak

#6: It is unlikely that you will make money back on most stones that you buy. THAT is why you shouldn't ever consider them an investment because most of the time you only get back 30-50% of what you paid.

I think that's true of most stones you buy from cutters/jewelry stores/etc. But occasionally you do find a "deal" when buying secondhand. However, I generally find that true when the seller himself might not have a full appreciation of what he's selling (like a person selling a pad as a pink sapphire because they aren't rock hounds). I feel like if a seller knows enough to know their stone is a paraiba, then they would know how to sell it for more than 100$. Unless it truly is a really banged up stone that most people wouldn't find attractive. (I've seen nearly opaque alexandrite for fairly cheap too).

Also, I wouldn't put much into "appraisal" value, it doesn't mean somebody will buy it at that price. Most people I know who would drop 300$ on a stone, probably wouldn't buy from private owners unless they knew them personally, knew the cutter, or it came with a AGTA cert. And not all appraisers are made equal, some will appraise things for more than real market value to make a customer happy, and some just don't have enough training/experience to give a realistic estimate on a colored gem (especially rare ones).

 

[T L]

Date: 11/24/2009 6:51:18 PM
Author: Tropicgal10
They would never get much more on ebay for it. I have searched ebay many times and the super expensive stones (over 500) go their whole 28 day life untouched.

I disagree. I have a couple investment tanzanites that I purchased from a local seller for 5$-50$. My 50$ one appraised for 700$. *If* I did sell it in the future, I wouldnt mind selling it for 3-400$ and make some money off it. Even my ones I paid 5$ for appraised for more then 150$ each. Even if I sold it for 1/2 the appraised value, I would make many times more then I paid. Again, IF. I love all my stones and cant bring myself to sell them. But if I needed to, or decided to I could make a large profit on all of them. Inless of course they find a huge endless supply of tanzanites...then I may be in trouble. The ones I 'may' sell or give to my kids to sell in the future I would never mount so they arnt damaged and loose value.

I disagree. I have purchased stones over $500 myself from ebay, and the dealers with great reputations for awesome stones often get a lot for their gems. It does happen.

Appraised prices can be many times what you can actually get for a stone though. It's all about what someone will pay for it, no matter how much it appraises for. For example, a white diamond may appraise for 5K, but you'll be lucky to get half that back upon reselling. I hope your tourmaline turns out to be a real copper bearing stone with nice color (nice color is important regardless of the copper content), so good luck.

Looking forward to pictures.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 11/24/2009 4:33:57 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds



I agree. For me, there are too many 'ifs' and 'buts' that need addressing:


1. Tropic isn't sure this is a Paraiba and has said she's not familiar with it as a gemstone and predominately collects Tanzanite.

2. Tropic will have to spend money getting the gem properly assessed to find out if it's a Paraiba.

3. If it's not then she's potentially bought a gemstone that even if recut may not be worth the money spent on it.

4. If it is a Paraiba then my next question would be why would somebody sell an 8ct Paraiba for under $100?????? Do you know any seller who, sitting on even a horrible Paraiba of over 8ct would let it go for this amount?

5. This gemstone may not even be a good candidate for a re-cut. Not to mention the cost involved which, for that size gem, could be over $200 - that's if she can find somebody to cut it (it's not that easy

)

6. If the aim is to buy for an investment either to keep or to sell later for more than has been spent on it - I'd seriously question that motive. I have 100s of gemstones and only a handful that I would seriously consider to be an 'investment' piece and certainly not in my lifetime. They may/may not be an investment for my daughter but certainly won't be for me.

7. Lastly, if Tropic has $100 to risk then fine. However, wouldn't it be better putting that $100 towards a gem without all the above issues? Ok, maybe not as much fun but less risky!

Loving Diamonds, you are always good for a detailed discussion, thanks ! My perspective on this stone has changed a little bit, (but not much). I would suggest that Tropic look at this stone carefully and see where the inclusions are located and if they look significant. This stone was cut once and unless it's been whacked pretty hard, it can certainly be re-cut. let me go through your list:

1. Everything about gems is related to price. Assuming that this stone has a pretty color and is natural, I would suggest that it doesn't matter if it's a paraiba or not. I would even go so far as to suggest that she not have it checked for copper content, but to only have it checked to see if it's a natural stone. There's no reason to check for copper content until she decides to sell it.
2. See #1
3. She needs to look closely at it prior to buying it to see if she thinks that it has enough clarity to warrant recutting. If so, then she should know that ANY attractive blue tourmaline of decent clarity and in that size is worth more than the cost of the stone plus having it checked as being natural and recutting. I would make sure that it can be returned or drag someone along who at least has enough tools to get an idea of whether it's natural or not. A dichroscope, R.I. tester and microscope should be enough.
4. Good question. No idea about that and they are either making this claim because it sounds good and looks close or they're selling a blue topaz and want the money badly. Once again having the ability to return it for a refund is a good idea. If not make friends with a gemologist and drag them along.
5. You're right, it may not be a good candidate for a re-cut, but if it looks pretty good right now and was cut once before, then it should be able to be re-cut rather rapidly. Finding a cutter is also not a problem. I do not want to violate forum rules about re-directing people to other sites, but there are a number of resources for cutters where you can find a whole bunch of them circling around the watering hole so to speak. One query in the right place and that problem is solved.
6. Hmmm, I've seen some of your stuff and you are quite wrong about this. In the next 20 years I think that you'll see natural gemstone prices rise dramatically. There are just not all that many places left which are easy to get to and so prices either have to rise to allow more equipment to be brought in or they will rise from scarcity. In any case if this stone was natural, a pretty blue and could be re-cut to say 5 carats, she could recoup her investment immediately and probably do much better. It's gotta be the real though or all bets are off.
7. What're you going to get for $100 that's worth fooling around with ? Nah, it's better to take a small chance, protect yourself as well as possible and see how the dice roll.

After all that, I'm going to feel REALLY guilty if this stone's a fake. Now I'll be worried for a week.

 

[LD]

Date: 11/24/2009 7:18:41 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 11/24/2009 4:33:57 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Loving Diamonds, you are always good for a detailed discussion, thanks ! My perspective on this stone has changed a little bit, (but not much). I would suggest that Tropic look at this stone carefully and see where the inclusions are located and if they look significant. This stone was cut once and unless it''s been whacked pretty hard, it can certainly be re-cut. let me go through your list:

1. Everything about gems is related to price. Assuming that this stone has a pretty color and is natural, I would suggest that it doesn''t matter if it''s a paraiba or not. I would even go so far as to suggest that she not have it checked for copper content, but to only have it checked to see if it''s a natural stone. There''s no reason to check for copper content until she decides to sell it.
2. See #1
3. She needs to look closely at it prior to buying it to see if she thinks that it has enough clarity to warrant recutting. If so, then she should know that ANY attractive blue tourmaline of decent clarity and in that size is worth more than the cost of the stone plus having it checked as being natural and recutting. I would make sure that it can be returned or drag someone along who at least has enough tools to get an idea of whether it''s natural or not. A dichroscope, R.I. tester and microscope should be enough.
4. Good question. No idea about that and they are either making this claim because it sounds good and looks close or they''re selling a blue topaz and want the money badly. Once again having the ability to return it for a refund is a good idea. If not make friends with a gemologist and drag them along.
5. You''re right, it may not be a good candidate for a re-cut, but if it looks pretty good right now and was cut once before, then it should be able to be re-cut rather rapidly. Finding a cutter is also not a problem. I do not want to violate forum rules about re-directing people to other sites, but there are a number of resources for cutters where you can find a whole bunch of them circling around the watering hole so to speak. One query in the right place and that problem is solved.
6. Hmmm, I''ve seen some of your stuff and you are quite wrong about this. In the next 20 years I think that you''ll see natural gemstone prices rise dramatically. There are just not all that many places left which are easy to get to and so prices either have to rise to allow more equipment to be brought in or they will rise from scarcity. In any case if this stone was natural, a pretty blue and could be re-cut to say 5 carats, she could recoup her investment immediately and probably do much better. It''s gotta be the real though or all bets are off.
7. What''re you going to get for $100 that''s worth fooling around with ? Nah, it''s better to take a small chance, protect yourself as well as possible and see how the dice roll.

After all that, I''m going to feel REALLY guilty if this stone''s a fake. Now I''ll be worried for a week.

Your last line had me chuckling!!!

From somebody with the same surname as you, may I say I''m very flattered by your above comment kind sir! It would be nice if you''re right about gemstone prices but the cynic in me always refers back to Tanzanite! 10 years ago it was "buy this as it won''t be around in 5/8/10 years" (take your pick!). The market is still as awash with Tanzanite now as it was then and, if anything, the price per carat has dropped slightly. I wouldn''t consider any of my Tanzanites (and I have some pretty decent examples) of being an investment piece in my lifetime and hopefully I''ve got a long time to live yet

Yes I could probably sell some of them for more than I paid BUT if I were to add interest to the money spent at the time, would it really be an investment? Probably not!

However, I do agree that perhaps my Alexandrites are a good investment. My 3ct eye clean pear with phenomenal colour change has been valued (for insurance purposes) at over $30,000 - is this (a) realistic and (b) would I be able to sell it for that? Well,
(a) perhaps because finding such a good specimen again may take a long time and a lot of money but (b) I''d NEVER be able to sell it for that. Nowhere close! Not that it''s going anywhere I hasten to add!

So I guess that''s why when I see people say that they are buying gemstones for investments purposes it ALWAYS starts the alarm bells ringing because you (a) have to be a very very very good judge of gemstones and know alot about the particular gemstone you''re buying to ensure you''re getting a good deal (b) a savvy buyer and (c) these deals don''t come around often! People for some unknown reason think that gemstones can always be sold for far more than they''ve been bought for and that''s a foolish philosophy.

I totally understand your reasoning that $100 for an 8ct gemstone that MAY turn out to be nice might be worth the risk but I''ve been there, done it and worn the tee-shirt too often to know that this is very rarely the case! I do hope that Tropic has great fortune with this gemstone and I can''t wait to see a photo!