Just got my Ideal Scope

[jmartini]

Thank you Belle and John for answering all my questions about H & A diamonds and Ideal cuts. I just received my Ideal Scope, but I''m having a difficult time with my ring, telling whether or not it''s light leakage or bad symmetry. On the Ideal-Scope reference chart I would say my diamond is about Fair-Good for symmetry (though my GIA cert says Very Good, I can only see an arrow or 2 at the edge). It looks like a big mess in there and I''m seeing more light gray than white, esp under the table and around the very edges. I guess I need to keep practicing before we go diamond hunting tomorrow. Can you have really bad symmetry, but very little light leakage? (Remember, this is my supposedly Ideal cut diamond)

For those of you have used the Ideal Scope as a consumer, do you just whip it out when they bring out the diamonds for you to look at? Do I need to explain what I''m using? I''m guessing the jewelers won''t be too happy about us using this. Since we are not meeting with our jeweler until next Wed, we are going to *practice* at some of our more local jewelry stores tomorrow, however I''m not sure where else to go, since we have pretty much exhausted any of the smaller private stores, that would leave us with Rogers and Holland, Jared and the like.

John, by the way, since you answered my question about hand vs. machine cut diamonds...should I just ask our jeweler next week to show us a similar diamond to my *Ideal* that was brillianteered by hand so that I can see the differences for myself. He actually only showed us machine-cut diamonds because he claims they have perfect proportions.

Thanks everyone for your help. You have been invaluable!!!! I''ll keep you posted.
Jen

 

[Shay37]

A diamond can be ideal in proportions and not be H&A. H&A is a certain type of optical symmetry. Your diamond may indeed be ideal, just not H&A. Does that make sense?

shay

 

[belle]

hey jen, congrats on your IS purchase!

you're on your way to finding a well cut stone!
as you have found, the IS is great for determining both optical symmetry and light leakage. keep in mind when looking at diamonds, that optical symmetry is not the same as lab graded symmetry (polish/symmetry). labs do not grade optical symmetry such as the precise (or not so) facet pattern of h&a. you could have a stone with ideal polish/symmetry that is not h&a and vice versa. here is a link to information about optical symmetry

also you should check out the video about using the IS found here

it may be awkward using your IS in jewelry stores since most have no clue what it is for, but read up on it and get used to using it and maybe you can give those jewelers some education!

have fun!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/3/2006 6:15:37 PM
Author:jmartini


Can you have really bad symmetry, but very little light leakage?

Yes. They are not very much related at all.



John, by the way, since you answered my question about hand vs. machine cut diamonds...should I just ask our jeweler next week to show us a similar diamond to my *Ideal* that was brillianteered by hand so that I can see the differences for myself.

I don''t think the jeweler would know where or how the diamonds in their inventory were cut. It sounds like you wanted to compare good with so-so ''optical symmetry'' - i.e. diamonds with good proportions, some with and some without the patters (=the orderly image under IdealScope).

My 2c


I am intrigued by the gray / black you describe in the view of your diamond under the IS. It may be that the stone got deeper inside and so the black reflections are exaggerated... Or it may be that it is cut too shallow. ''Ideal proportions'' is what every sellers wanted them to be

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/3/2006 6:15:37 PM
Author:jmartini
Thank you Belle and John for answering all my questions about H&A diamonds and Ideal cuts. I just received my Ideal Scope, but I'm having a difficult time with my ring, telling whether or not it's light leakage or bad symmetry. On the Ideal-Scope reference chart I would say my diamond is about Fair-Good for symmetry (though my GIA cert says Very Good, I can only see an arrow or 2 at the edge). It looks like a big mess in there and I'm seeing more light gray than white, esp under the table and around the very edges. I guess I need to keep practicing before we go diamond hunting tomorrow. Can you have really bad symmetry, but very little light leakage? (Remember, this is my supposedly Ideal cut diamond)

For those of you have used the Ideal Scope as a consumer, do you just whip it out when they bring out the diamonds for you to look at? Do I need to explain what I'm using? I'm guessing the jewelers won't be too happy about us using this. Since we are not meeting with our jeweler until next Wed, we are going to *practice* at some of our more local jewelry stores tomorrow, however I'm not sure where else to go, since we have pretty much exhausted any of the smaller private stores, that would leave us with Rogers and Holland, Jared and the like.

John, by the way, since you answered my question about hand vs. machine cut diamonds...should I just ask our jeweler next week to show us a similar diamond to my *Ideal* that was brillianteered by hand so that I can see the differences for myself. He actually only showed us machine-cut diamonds because he claims they have perfect proportions.

Thanks everyone for your help. You have been invaluable!!!! I'll keep you posted.
Jen

Hi JM

When using IS with your ring be sure you use strong backlighting and have minimal surface area blocking the light (like fingers holding the ring). Use tweezers if you have them - and be sure the diamond's pavilion is as clean as possible - this may be influencing what you see. You may have seen this page (?) Yes, a diamond can have good light light return and not-so-good optical symmetry.

Belle brought up something important and not well-understood 'out there:' The SYMMETRY GRADE on a lab report is not the same thing as OPTICAL SYMMETRY, or 'Patterning' or 'Hearts & Arrows.' She linked an article with graphics in her post above that show the differences. It's an important distinction that is not well known.

Lab-graded symmetry analyzes the external craftsmanship.
Optical symmetry looks at the way light reflects internally.

This is confusing because a lot of people in the trade (including charming but irascible Australians) use simply 'symmetry' to apply to both. When addressing consumers I try to distinguish optical symmetry from basic symmetry - and I truly need to since I'm often talking about H&A diamonds - but since H&A are a niche market 'optical symmetry' is rarely discussed with consumers in common sales situations.

Back to you - it would not be surprising for your diamond to appear somewhat chaotic as most diamonds do in structured light environments like IS or H&A viewers. The important thing is how well it returns light overall. Many diamonds cut to strict proportions (Belle named some for you before) will show a pretty good level of optical symmetry because it takes care and skill to arrive at that narrow range - it's a by-product - so often good light return is correlated to good (optical) symmetry. Most of the diamonds people post IS images of on PS are far far better in both light return and optical symmetry than what you will find in the mainstream.

I use IS and H&A viewers in jewelry stores. I suggest you speak to someone in charge. Wait until he/she is away from other customers and explain what you'd like to do. Be honest about what you are there for: You have purchased this scope that is supposed to show light return and would like to see a few diamonds in it to see if it tells you what your eyes tell you. It's within their right to ask questions. Be honest. They can say no, but in my experience if they are confident in their inventory they do not mind. I've made friends with several local jewelers by visiting stores to see 'what's out there' in the mainstream from time to time.

I am not sure where your jeweler is coming from with his take on machine-cut diamonds. There are places where machinery is used for much or all of the process, but this is mainly mass-manufacture (which can be far from 'perfect proportions') and melee, or very small diamonds. In order to acquire the premium levels of the world's best diamonds, human hand-eye coordination must be involved.

Here is some info about diamond machinery: https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_mach.asp

Looking forward to the updates.