Just got gem. report. Opinions?

[vcamayd]

Hi everyone. Just got a gemological report from JWL in Miami. I've attached a copy of the report to this message. The diamond specs are as follows...

What do you all think? I got him down to 11K for the diamond. Is this a good price? Is the cut as good as I think it is? I'm considering the purchase and need to decide very soon. Thanks everyone for all your help.

GIA Certification info.

Round Brilliant 1.51 Ct.
Measurements 7.35 - 7.43 x 4.56 mm

Proportions
Depth 61.7%
Table 58%
Girdle Medium, Faceted
Culet None
Finish
Polish Excellent
Symmetr Excellent

Clarity Grade SI1

Color Grade F
Fluorescense None

The independent report is attached.

 

[laney]

Think about what?
Did you buy this already? Are you considering it? Do you want to know if it is a good value for the price? Let us know what you would like to know.

 

[vcamayd]

Thanks Laney. Just want to know if 11K is a good price and if the cut is as good as I think it is.

 

[Regular Guy]

I'd recommend reviewing the tutorial here, and the reviewing what HCA is able to tell you about cut.

With an HCA score of about 5.4, if you're not yet committed, it would appear you can do better (or, as Laney might have been possibly been getting at, if you are committed, it may well just be lovely!).

 

[vcamayd]

Yeah, I noticed the HCA.. I'm not committed as of yet but at the same time everyone who has seen the diamond and reviewed it has had nothing but good things to say. Not sure if i trust an internet tool over a gemologist. Does brilliance have anything to do with this image? Can you guys make heads or tails of the color image above?

 

[Regular Guy]

Without doubt, go with the knowledge of a gemologist...just not the one who would sell you the stone!

Typically, a diamond you are interested in is brought to an independant appraiser after the purchase, and before the time elapses during which you can return it for a full refund. Just make sure the appraiser:

a) knows what you want to know (i.e., if you want to know if it well cut specifically, you need to ask), and
b) that the appraiser has equipment or sensitivity (I guess the potentially problematic info is already there on your hard copy) to make that judgement, if cut is what you want to know about.

A list is here.

P.S. I''ve read that appraisers are reluctant to tell you what you don''t want to know, so be careful.

 

[Regular Guy]

P.S. Dave Atlas is a gemologist, and an appraiser. His charts are available here, too, and you can do your own checking against that reference as well. Note particularly pavilion depth.

You can check AGS published standards as well.

This info may or may not be important to you. But...I think it what much of what Pricescope is about.

 

[vcamayd]

Thanks for the info. The appriaser is very well known and has been doing this since 1970. He was highly recommended but not by the person selling me the jewel. I did tell him that cut was the most important thing to me. He was recommended by another AGS certifed gemologist who could not take on any more work this month. I spoke to him and he seemed very nice.

He did take the time to explain the results and I really like when he showed me a stack of other reports which showed less brilliance and as he mentioned were of inferior quality. He was pretty happy with the stone and the price he mentioned was good.

VC

 

[vcamayd]

This is a great site and i''m sooo happy i found it. It is hard to explain how much all your help has meant to me. It has not only helped educate me but given me some peace of mind.

 

[laney]

I see that you have gotten some good advice, - being that you should have a third party take a look. Maybe with some more specific tools that can help you judge your main factor "cut".

I have the same size stone, also an "F'' color and an S12. I too was looking for an excellent cut stone.

I have an H&A stone AGS graded 000. I know that your report doesn''t necesarilly grade in this way - but maybe an independant apprasier could use some tools to help you get more specs on your cut.

Also - based on the cut "too".. your stone may be graded lower due to the depth and the table size. My stone was a little less deep an the table smaller -- which in turn gave it a high rating in the cut category on the pricescope tool.

I would keep looking. I got mine for about 1K less than your price (it''s all realtive though) - but for that amount of money - you probably could get a little better with the proportions. Don''t quote me here...

I''m sure this is a beautiful stone - as your gemologist says - however here at pricescope we are allowed to be perfectionsists .. right?

Side note: when we were on the hunt for a stone - we had a close friends family help us look. We ended up buying elsewhere - not because they weren''t good stones/prices - but we had higher standards (thank you pricescope) for what we wanted.

Good Luck!

 

[vcamayd]

I just looked up the list of appraisers and it just so happen the Joseph Tenhagen is the appraiser i used and he is on the list!! What are the chances of that? Good deal.

I did see the list of AGA specs (great chart by the way) and did notice that the pavillion depth pushes the stone to Class 2B in that category.

Depth %: Class 1A
Table %: Class 1A
Crown Hight: Class 1A
Crown Angle: Class 1B
Pavillion Depth: Class 2B

As you can see the pavillion depth does impact some if the proportional properties of the stone. Hm... This is agreat chart and this will be a price point i can use with the jeweler who i think is close to charging premium.

Does this mean that it pushes this diamond into the 2B category or does it just mean that it''s mostly a 1A - 1B? I would think it makes it a 2B overall cut. Does this make sense?

VC

 

[vcamayd]

I found the DIY cut grading site on the AGA web site and got the following....

Cut Grading Report for Round Cut Stones


Shape: Round
Table % 57.4% Grade: 1A
Crown Angle 35.1° Grade: 1B
Crown Height % 14.4% Grade: 1A
Pavilion Depth % 44.2% Grade: 2B
Girdle Thickness Medium to Slightly thick Grade: 1A
Total Depth % 62.00% Grade: 1A
Polish Excellent / Very Good Grade: 1A * Not a primary determining factor.
Symmetry Excellent / Very Good Grade: 1A * Not a primary determining factor.

Final Grade: 1B


So i guess the final grade is a 1B. Not too bad and i think the price is good.

I think i''m going to go for it. I''ll try to haggle a bit.

 

[Regular Guy]

There may be a number of factors making that particular diamond attractive, and I hear you have a tight time frame.

If you have the time (and you may not), there''s nothing like BATNA...knowing the "best alternative to a negotiated agreement."

Using this tool, for example, you could check out this option, or others.

In the alternative, you probably have a lovely diamond in hand, and could probably be done. Though I''ll remind you, you did post this note for feedback, you absolutely could be done. If you are.....

Best wishes,

 

[vcamayd]

Hey, those are some great sites. I like the diamond you found on the web page. Although it''s a G it appears to have great proportions and the image looks pretty clean. I did notice the symmetry appears to be off by a hair and there are some inclusions outside the table. So many web sites and tools and so little time. hahaha. I went ahead and purchased the F 1.51. It will be ready for me next friday. I was lucky enough to get the gemological report before I had to purchase it although it cost me $75. Is there any way to get this info without spending money for it. Since it did have most of the features i wanted and the salesman was so helpfull and patient with me I just went ahead and purchased it.

I''ll be sure to post some pictures as soon as i get it. Thanks everyone for all your help.

 

[Rhino]

A diamiond with 35.1 crown angles and 41.5 pavililoin angles ... I don't have access to my DiamCalc software as I type this but it is a pooper with more than acceptable leakage in the most important place in the face of the diamond ... under the table. You can find a more brilliant stone with a little more hunting.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/10/2004 3:251 PM
Author: vcamayd
Not sure if i trust an internet tool over a gemologist.
Does brilliance have anything to do with this image?

I could not say "trust HCA over gemologist" - I don't think the HCA was meant to be used that way, and there is more precise info at hand: the picture of your report.

The parrot-color thing looks like a Gilbertson-Scope image to me. The thing works on the same principle as the Ideal Scope often mentioned here. Both 'scope color the light reflected by the diamond according to it's angle of "exit". The Ideal Scope uses red, the other scope uses three colors (green, blue and yellow in the picture). In both types of 'scope image, white 9or some very light shade of color) means light lickeage, lack of light return or brilliance from some facets.

The picture in the cert shows a ring of pale color around the table - and that's what Jonathan ("Rhino" above) is talking about, if I got these things right.

 

[valeria101]

Here's what I meant in a picture

None of the details below touch the usual "SO What?" . So, there is a bit of light that passes though the stone instead of being reflected, so what ???
Well, by these H&A and Idealistic standards, this diamond manages to be approximatively Ideal and Approximatively Harts and Arrows. There is a refference chart HERE that tries to explain just how approximate. Hope it helps.

No idea what 1.5 F/SI1 H&A Ideals sell for. The one exact match listed here is just one and a few thousand higher. One AGS1 with better H&A pattern and light return comes at slightly less (link) with all the details you can see. So... you may or may not find a better deal if you are inclined to look for it in the first place.

 

[nicknomo]

Well, I would say it probably doesn''t look bad.. I would say by the numbers it probably doesn''t look GREAT.. It''s a bit deep. That could be ok. Unlike some other people here (not necessarily in this thread), I am not affiliated with any retailer or organization. I''m just a regular guy. So maybe that might mean a bit more when I tell you this.. When I first started shopping, all the diamonds looked nice.. some looked really nice.. however your perception changes when you find a true ideal diamond, with exceptional brilliance... The ones that looked great before, aren''t quite as amazing.

I''d suggest you look at some stones that are true ideals.. you will find the standards listed in the tutorial. They are quite hard to find locally... However, if you can find one that would meet an ideal or better yet "super ideal" standards listed here I think you will be blown away. Someone that sells Lazar Kaplan diamonds is a good start... Those are nice looking ideals. Maybe not the best, but its a good reference point.

If the difference to you is not impressive, or you think the diamond you found is superior... Go for it. I just think you should really see the best before you make any judgements. I was actually able to get a superior diamond for a better price with the info listed here (I ended up buying online though, something you may not be willing to do).

It''s a big investment, and a lot of jewelers will rip you off rather quickly if you don''t do your homework. 11k isn''t all that bad of a price for an F Si1 (good combo by the way). However, I''m a bit skeptical of the numbers there.. The best judge though, is of course, your eyes...

 

[nicknomo]

Here is the ideal scope image of the diamond I ended up buying. It had a 34.7 crown, 40.9 pavillion. There is slight leakage in the table, and on the edges (which I've seen in every diamond I've looked at).. but nothing major. The picture is a little dark and crappy because of a weak backlight and no flash on the camera (you wouldn't believe how hard it is to take pictures of this stuff).

This sucker blinds in direct sunlight (literally!). The ideal scope was a good invest ment in the beginning for me, as it helped me differentiate between diamond cuts without actually knowing what I was looking at. After a while though, I had shopped around so much, I didn't really need it, as I could pick up the brilliance and scintallation with my eyes.. Being a guy, its sometimes difficult to go from a world where all diamonds look the same to you and then all of a sudden have to choose what diamond looks nicer.

 

[Rhino]

Good advice Nick.

I''m about to book it out for the day but here is a simulate model (more specifically a simulated LS image) showing what these angles produce with regards to light return/leakage. All the white under the table is something I refer to as the "ring of death" (not really deadly, but can indeed kill brilliance under the table

) and is all loss of light under the table. Valeria''s observation of the report seems to confirm this as well.

While I would agree that the opinion of a gemologist should be considered over a "prediction", THIS GEMOLOGIST will confirm that you have a bit too much leakage happening in one of the most important places within the diamond. Also consider that the Gemologist who has developed the HCA is quite experienced and in this case you SHOULD consider the information that the HCA, the results of DiamCalc and the professional opinion of this Gman are all in agreement.

 

[vcamayd]

This really is some great info. I've got nothing but priase for all of you. I did tell the jeweler to set the diamond but it wont be ready till Friday. What are my options at this point if i want to continue looking? I've already paid for the ring in cash. Hmmm? Seeing that I purchased it on Friday do you think it would be OK to put it on hold?

Also, can anyone comment on the brilliance rating of 87% from the report? What does this mean? Would the diamond with a pavilion that is not as deep have a higher rating? Does the 87% rating agree with the brilliance loss under the table?

VC

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 12/12/2004 1:56

1 PM
Author: vcamayd
This really is some great info. I''ve got nothing but priase for all of you. I did tell the jeweler to set the diamond but it wont be ready till Friday. What are my options at this point if i want to continue looking? I''ve already paid for the ring in cash. Hmmm? Seeing that I purchased it on Friday do you think it would be OK to put it on hold?

Also, can anyone comment on the brilliance rating of 87% from the report? What does this mean? Would the diamond with a pavilion that is not as deep have a higher rating? Does the 87% rating agree with the brilliance loss under the table?

VC

Joe Tenhagen is a highly credential gemologist. His rating of 87% isn''t an industry standard. It is his own.

I would give Joe a call and discuss the meanings of this grading with him. I am a little concerned with the missing arrown and the distortion shown in the graphic, but only if not having a true hearts and arrows stone is an issue to you.

Shame you dont have a B Scope report on it, as the B Scope would show the affect of the area with the missing arrow.

Are you in FL? If near Miami you could always go see Joe T.


Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

This is an example of a steep deep diamond. Some proportions are decent but in order to really be an exceptional stone, they ALL need to be in sync with each other.

The table just makes it conform to the AGS 0 grade. JWT says 57.4 9 AGS limit is 57.%) . This stone is borderline AGS 0 to 1.

Another thing to keep in mind is the consistency of each of the facet angles. This is not in the grading system of AGS. 35.1 and 41.5 are AVERAGES. IMO all these facets should be very close together in the angles and lengths. In the graphic of the H&A image, the area that is missing may be an area where the angle was fudged with either to get extra weight yield or perhaps the cutter had difficulty polishing those facets. Diamonds have a soft side and hard side to the graining and crystal structure.

Averages can be fooling the prospective buyer, since you don''t have the info on all the facets.

Sometimes as much as the cutter may try polishing the "proper angle" may not work (i.e. facet won''t take a polish) and thus he has to vary the angle to compensate for this factor.

Talk to Mr. Tenhagen, and see if he can comment further on the situation here. See if he has any notes about the affect of the area in the H&A that would enlighten you as to why it appears as such.

Again, how important all this is "worth" to you is your decision. Since you''ve seen the stone and appear pleased with its appearance based on price you may want to forgo getting the cat''s meow proportioned stone, which of course is OK if your satisfied. If not and you have doubts, find stones that you don''t have doubts over and compare the pricing and availability and see just how much it will cost you to "upgrade".

Regards
Hope this helps.


Rockdoc

 

[vcamayd]

To be honest with you guys i didn't even know it was a H&A diamond. I'd heard about them from this forum but didn't really ask for an H&A diamond. I'm not even sure the jeweler knows since he never mentioned it. All i told the jeweler that the cut was the most important aspect of the diamond and that I wanted it to be very brilliant. I also told him that I wanted a 1 to 1.3 ct. stone and that's when he pulled out this one. He mentioned that he just wanted to show it to me so that i could have some frame of reference as to what to look for. I ended up purchasing it after Joe's report.

I've met Joe when i got this report and I do need to go speak with him when i get the diamond back since he's going to give me the appraisal and verify that it's the same one he looked at before. I'll ask him about he B-Scope and the affected area and i'll post what he finds here so you guys have a heads up. This is all good experiance i guess. Joe T. is a great guy and he did take the time to go over this report and even a stack of other reports for other customers he was preparing. He mentioned this stone had the most brilliance of all he had there. He also mentioned that the red area in the middle was the proper size in this stone and he compared it with others that were either too big or to small or not even there. Also he mentioned that the black and white image in the report indicated where some light was lost but i'm not sure if i understood that correctly. Does this make sense?

VC

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Just 2 things.

1. the crown proportions do not add up - the crown height should be 14.4%, not 15?

2. Joe''s scale might start at 75% light return for very bad cut - ask him please.

I met Joe in Vegas last year. he is a great guy and takes what he does very seriously, but i think he would confess that he was totally blown away by a few of the functions I showed him in DiamCalc. Joe was part of the early group involved in the Brillianscope / Lambadaspec disaster.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/12/2004 6:21:18 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Joe was part of the early group involved in the Brillianscope / Lambadaspec disaster.

Explain please

 

[vcamayd]

Date: 12/12/2004 6:21:18 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Just 2 things.

1. the crown proportions do not add up - the crown height should be 14.4%, not 15?

2. Joe''s scale might start at 75% light return for very bad cut - ask him please.

I met Joe in Vegas last year. he is a great guy and takes what he does very seriously, but i think he would confess that he was totally blown away by a few of the functions I showed him in DiamCalc. Joe was part of the early group involved in the Brillianscope / Lambadaspec disaster.

Thanks for this info. I think you meant to say that the crown hight should be 15 and not 14.4? I''d like to be able to explain to him how you came up with those proportions.

Also, looking at point 2, can i assume that if the scope is set up for 75% light return for very bad cut that it would give me a higher briliance reading than what it should be? What are the implications of starting off at 75% light return for very bad cut.

and what''s this disaster thing you mentioned?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes sorry - 14.4%

The report is paid for by the vendor - if the scale was set at o% then the very best stone might score 75% (because no diamond returns all the light).

The Renata, Lambada, Gilbertson, Gemex and Tenhagen saga is only hearsay for me here in Oz - ask around and search leagl proceedings - you might get some gossip Storm (and then tell me ). But more interesting is the story about the guys that tried to rob Joe; do not mess with his bowie knife and expect to tell the tale.

 

[strmrdr]

bowie knife?
Try a .45
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gffall99.html#news

My kinda guy always use enough gun!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

If I remember correctly, Joe did use a .45 in that situation.

I forget the number of protagonists, but they were surprised their potential lamb turned out to be a lion...