Just bought a diamond from Shenoa & Co: Need advise FAST please!!!

[cortney]

This is kind of long so please bear with me, but any help would be so greatly appreciated...

So we were going to buy a round brilliant ring from Costco: 1 ct, guaranteed to be I, VS2 or better--4299.99. We''ve been looking for a little over a year... I started looking on eBay a while ago ( I know everyone warns against this) and I came across diamonds from a company out of New York with really good feedback--Shenoa & Co. I emailed about 25 people who have previously purchased diamonds of more than 1 ct and spent more than 3000.00 to find out about their experiences with the company and their satisfaction with the diamond. I''ve gotten numerous responses...probably 15, and rougly 5 of them were not satisfied with the original diamond that was sent to them, but the returned the diamond and the company sent them a "better" one. The consumer must pay 35.00 for an NGL appraisal to verify the specs of the diamond. They have a 100% money back guarantee, but the diamond must be returned within five days. I called the company to find out more about their business, they said if I have the diamond reset, and something happens to the diamond (if it chips or breaks), they don''t back the diamond. This is apparently the responsibility of the jeweler who has damaged the diamond. I called around and spoke with other jewelers in town, and this is the case for them as well. I am only concerned because I have heard negative information about scams and fraud that goes on in the diamond district. If I have the diamond reset, and something happens to it (where the jeweler that is setting it did nothing wrong but the diamond is not what they said it was) then the company won''t stand by their diamond.
We bought (using a credit card) a 1.44 brilliant round, VS1, H diamond and had it set in a 4-prong 14 kt yellow gold setting for 3885.00. It arrives tomorrow afternoon. We are both VERY nervous, but we know that we can send it back for a full refund if we are not totally satisfied. The problem is the time constraint. So we will have it appraised by a local woman who will verify the NGL certificate for free, and if I want her to legally write it on paper, she charges 45.00, which is fine. If we are dissatisfied with the specs of the diamond, we send it back. If we like the diamond, we''re going to send it to an independant certified gemologist to look at, but of course this will take longer than five days so we must make a decision based on what we find out from this local appraiser.
We don''t want to spend more than 4300.00 as we''re both PhD students on a tight budget. I''m still a little leary about making a decision based on one appraisers opinion as diamond grading is subjective and also not knowing whether or not she will be able to tell if this diamond is manmade or not???
Has anyone heard good or bad things about the diamond district in NY or this company? Also, any suggestions on what we should do in terms of having the ring appraised and what steps we should take to determine whether or not to keep the diamond? Any responses are greatly appreciated... Please hurry!!!
Thank you SO SO much for your help!!!!
Cortney

oh, here is a link to the diamond "picture" on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2665518762&category=15182&rd=1

I am not sure this is even a real picture of the diamond as it looks like this picture has been used for other diamonds for sale by this company...

 

[spicolicpa]

Well, you really dove in..lol

At worst I guess you get it looked at and dont like what you hear. Send it right back and register your package.

At best you got a good deal on a decent stone.

Keep us informed and good luck!

 

[aljdewey]

I'm sorry in advance for what I know will sound harsh, but I'm going to be very direct here.




Do you realize that an *average* (meaning NOT great) cut diamond in this size range (for H, VS1) runs $4433 per carat? That means a stone of this size should run $6300 or so, and it's just an average cut! A well-cut diamond (class 1A) of this size/color/clarity runs about $7400.




You're getting this for $3885, and that includes the setting? Doesn't that ring any alarms in your head? It certainly does in mine. This stone is likely not an H, it's likely not VS1, and it's *definitely* not well-cut.




There are *no* deals to be had on eBay.....you get what you pay for.


Personally, I'd return this without even opening the box.




There's a saying that really applies here.....if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.




Cortney, you can get a really beautiful stone through several vendors here for that $4300. There are a bunch of really great people here who could help you get a GORGEOUS stone and spend that money much more wisely.




Go for a better cut stone, perhaps in I color (which is going to be MUCH whiter in a well-cut stone than in that ebay stone, which I'm sure is probably an L/M!), and go for an SI-1 or even an eyeclean SI-2. If you want help, just let us know and perhaps we can recommend a few for you.

 

[valeria101]

White diamonds, for now, are only naturals, so no need to worry. Substitutes can be identified by jewelers without much trouble. The price seems quite good so the chance for the stone to be soooo off grade that this price should not be right for it (and you may still like the piece) is unlikely. So, it is going to be a real diamond (or else you will know it 100%) and you will have it appraised (let's say 90% reliability) and you will see it - which is the most imporatnt, I guess. So, what I would wander is 'do I like it enough?' and 'Was I fooled?'. The second Q is appraiser's problem. The first, and most imporatnt, is only yours given the return policy... So, it sounds like a good situation to me (after quite a few buys on Ebay).

I would not worry about the price differential right now.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I concur with Al.

While you might be getting a nice stone that is worth the money you paid for it, I would be very surprised if it was an H/VS1. My guess is it's going to fall in the JK/VS range.

If you like it however, the price would be fair for a JK/VS. The appraiser will let you know if it's worth the money or not.

If it turns out to be an H/VS1, you got the deal of the century.

 

[spicolicpa]

I guess after reading some posts today I realize that I am a diamond Elitist or put another way a "Cut Snob". I will not settle for "its okay" or "not too horrible" . A stone that does not look "colorless" is not what I would want. Everyone has their preferences though. I compromised with a SI2 eyeclean and .92 ct to get the SuperIdeal H&A cut G color in my price range. Its up to how you feel.


Most everyone I talk with says its the light return that snaps heads not the size....(Unless you got the Mother of all iceburges on your hand of course)

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/28/2003 6:04:41 PM valeria101 wrote:

I would not worry about the price differential right now.
----------------

Why not? It's the most significant indicator that she didn't get what she thinks she did.

She should absolutely worry about the price differential, in my opinion. We're not talking about $200-$300.....we're talking HALF of what a decent stone that size should cost. I'm sorry, but that's horribly significant.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 10/28/2003 5:55:39 PM aljdewey wrote:







I'm sorry in advance for what I know will sound harsh, but I'm going to be very direct here.




Do you realize that an *average* (meaning NOT great) cut diamond in this size range (for H, VS1) runs $4433 per carat? That means a stone of this size should run $6300 or so, and it's just an average cut! A well-cut diamond (class 1A) of this size/color/clarity runs about $7400.




You're getting this for $3885, and that includes the setting? Doesn't that ring any alarms in your head? It certainly does in mine. This stone is likely not an H, it's likely not VS1, and it's *definitely* not well-cut.




There are *no* deals to be had on eBay.....you get what you pay for.


Personally, I'd return this without even opening the box.




There's a saying that really applies here.....if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.




Cortney, you can get a really beautiful stone through several vendors here for that $4300. There are a bunch of really great people here who could help you get a GORGEOUS stone and spend that money much more wisely.




Go for a better cut stone, perhaps in I color (which is going to be MUCH whiter in a well-cut stone than in that ebay stone, which I'm sure is probably an L/M!), and go for an SI-1 or even an eyeclean SI-2. If you want help, just let us know and perhaps we can recommend a few for you.





----------------

I don't think you need worry about loosing all your money. Shenoa has a store on 47th street, I don't think there's any way they are sending you a sim. Also- I believe they will definately honor thier money back guarantee.

aljdewey brings up a few really good points. YOu get what you pay for and clearly, you're not paying for a diamond GIA would certify H/VS1 with a nice make ( good cut) for the price.

Since you've already bit the bullet, relax. Look at the diamond, and if you don't like it, you can return it.

I say this with all due respect- since you got so many people responding to emails telling you they sent back a diamond for exactly this reason, the dues you may need to pay in this case are the restock, re-appraisal and shipping fees.

But now that you're here I'm sure you'll find good advice should you decide to shop further.

Now aljdewey, as far as there being *no* deals to be had on eBay- it's kinda true that there are *no* deals to be had anywhere on legitimate top quality diamonds- no? Although a buyer needs to wade thru a lot of junk, there are a few dealers selling diamonds at competitive prices on eBay.

If you want a really well cut, desirable stone, and you wait for a distressed sale, you may be waiting a long, long time. Competitive prices from a dealer they feel comfortable with is what an diamond buyer should look for.

 

[Mara]

There ARE deals to be had on eBay....however IMO from what I have seen, those deals are normally from consumers who need to sell a stone. Maybe it's a divorce or an upgrade or they just want to get rid of it..and can't get a store to buy it back or just want it out of their hair. They are willing to take a bath on the stone, sell it for 50% of value, whatever.




But why would a reputable dealer that has a store in NYC *have* to sell stones on eBay and below wholesale and 1/2 of what they could get it for in their store if they charged average retail? That is what *I* would wonder. Why would they need to get rid of this stone? They have a store...why not sell it there. Why give it as a 'deal' to someone on eBay?




That said, you at least are a bit freaked out about what you did which says you have common sense. Definitely get the stone appraised...I would go the extra mile and pay for a real indepdenent appraisal, not some 'local woman'...you don't mention her qualifications at all. Pay the $100 or $200 for a real appraisal and get the full workup done on this stone. You may have a winner...or you may have a real dud. In any case, it'll probably be a real diamond...but what sort who knows.




However as the others note, a 1.44c H VS1 for the price you got it for...that is a ridiculous price. Do you even have any information on table, depth etc--ANYTHING? Did you ask for a real picture of the stone? Talk about buying blind! You are totally within your rights to ask for this information, did you just not want to do it or were you afraid to ask?




Totally random note, that 2nd picture in the middle in the auction looks really dark in the middle. If that is the real stone's picture...yikes.

 

[pqcollectibles]

I am an eBay'er and I gave some serious consideration to Shenoa before I bought. Their prices were soooo much cheaper than well cut diamonds list on PS. So I did a little digging into Shenoa. Eventually, I found their home website where they do list and sell some GIA Certed diamonds. Mostly lower colors and clarities, not the best cuts, for way more $$$ than similar diamonds offered by PS Vendors. Like up to double the price in some cases.

Good luck with your decision and whatever happens after that.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/28/2003 9:26:47 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

Now aljdewey, as far as there being *no* deals to be had on eBay- it's kinda true that there are *no* deals to be had anywhere on legitimate top quality diamonds- no.

Yes, David, that is absolutely true.....and my comment shouldn't be construed as knocking legitimate sellers on eBay. But for some reason, people think that eBay offers an opportunity to get a GREAT diamond at a ridiculously low price. While those opportunities exist on a rare basis---as Mara pointed out, someone looking to dump a diamond via divorce or struggling with hard times......there is a LOT more "chaff" than "wheat". Those opportunities typically come from individuals, not from dealers. Dealers aren't willing to take a bath on a stone because it just upsets them to look at it. Dealers don't typically have to lose money on stones because they have to sell off some of the possessions to pay for tuition.

My point was "you get what you pay for"....whether on ebay or anyplace else. If a price is just too good to be true, there's a reason.....no matter where the sale is hosted.

Although a buyer needs to wade thru a lot of junk, there are a few dealers selling diamonds at competitive prices on eBay.

Competitive prices, yes....but at "unheard of, ridiculously low prices"........no. When someone gets a price like this, they should ask themselves why a dealer would have to sell a diamond that low when the market clearly will bear double the price. It should be common sense, but you know what they say.....common sense isn't common.

-------------

 

[pqcollectibles]

Most of the jewelry that Shenoa sells on eBay is earrings, pendants, and engagement rings. They repeatedly use the same pics over and over again for duplicate auction items.

Early in the buying process, with just enough CUT knowledge to be dangerous, I contacted Shenoa about a diamond pendant on eBay that closed with no bidders. Shenoa offered to sell it to me at a lower price than the open listed on the auction ad. I wrote back asking for the CUT info I'd learned to ask for thru PS. Since it wasn't Certed by AGS/GIA, they didn't have Sarin/OGI/BS, etc., info available. The email went on and on about the many years of experience and credentials of their "in house" graders and how reputable NGL is. I was assured the color and clarity grades were accurate + or - one grade. If an independent verification did not prove their claim as to color and or clarity, they would exchange the pendant or refund my money, less fees, of course. No reference in the email about the level of CUT quality.

As to Shenoa's positive feedback,..... Just think of all the people out there wearing dead fish or frozen spit that think their rocks are gorgeous. As mentioned before, you stand a much better chance of buying a nicer diamond for a reduced price on eBay from an individual looking to unload a precious possession for some financial/emotional reason.

 

[Giangi]

I agree w/everyone... At that price, I doubt it will be an H/VS 1. But, even if you get let's say a J/SI 1, the price is still good. If the stone looks nice to you and if you get a good value even if it's overgraded, then it's still a decent deal.
From the picture, my gut instinct tells me it looks like an I at very best. Obviously, you cannot grade a stone from a monitor, especially since maybe it's not the same stone you're getting. But now, stay calm and don't panic, if you don't like it you can return it.

BTW, why does the auction say 0 bids?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 10/29/2003 9:59:10 AM aljdewey wrote:

----------------
On 10/28/2003 9:26:47 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

Now aljdewey, as far as there being *no* deals to be had on eBay- it's kinda true that there are *no* deals to be had anywhere on legitimate top quality diamonds- no.

Yes, David, that is absolutely true.....and my comment shouldn't be construed as knocking legitimate sellers on eBay. But for some reason, people think that eBay offers an opportunity to get a GREAT diamond at a ridiculously low price. While those opportunities exist on a rare basis---as Mara pointed out, someone looking to dump a diamond via divorce or struggling with hard times......there is a LOT more 'chaff' than 'wheat'. Those opportunities typically come from individuals, not from dealers. Dealers aren't willing to take a bath on a stone because it just upsets them to look at it. Dealers don't typically have to lose money on stones because they have to sell off some of the possessions to pay for tuition.

Good point about individuals. That IS one way to find a stone way below market on eBay. Of course besides offering a stone below market, private sellers also offer a lot more risk for the buyer. Another good use for the PS forum ( heh, heh)

Personally, I DO take losses when I buy something I later regret buying- a stone that "upsets me to look at"

I put up a pair of .92 tw's princess cuts in our store on a $1 no reserve because one of the stones has a damaged culet. If I loose money on them, it's my own fault.

My point was 'you get what you pay for'....whether on ebay or anyplace else. If a price is just too good to be true, there's a reason.....no matter where the sale is hosted.

Although a buyer needs to wade thru a lot of junk, there are a few dealers selling diamonds at competitive prices on eBay.

Competitive prices, yes....but at 'unheard of, ridiculously low prices'........no. When someone gets a price like this, they should ask themselves why a dealer would have to sell a diamond that low when the market clearly will bear double the price. It should be common sense, but you know what they say.....common sense isn't common.

aljdewey, you have some really good points- and that always seems to be the case with your posts- I really enjoy reading them!

And here again, you hit the nail on the head- IF IT LOOKS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS!

-------------

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[Patty]

I'm pulling this thread up because Shenoa Co. is how I ended up finding this board (typed it into the browser and up came this board). I too have been amazed at the supposed quality offered by Shenoa for VERY low prices. I also found their separate web page with loose stones listed. The loose stones were not great prices, and nothing like the prices of their finished rings on eBay.

The conclusion I came to was that their quality must not be accurate on the eBay listings. Yes, they use the same photo over and over, so you are NOT getting the ring/earrings pictured. Also, while most of their feedback was very positive, I found one who commented that the ring appraised at two colors and two clarities lower than advertised. I also found several comments by people that they were unhappy with the quality at first but Shenoa upgraded the quality to their satisfaction. My guess is that they send out lower quality stones than what they advertise and the majority of the people are none the wiser. I was amazed by a few people who said that the diamond didn't meet the advertised quality but it was still a great deal...Like that makes it okay?!

I e-mailed the company asking how they determine a rating of "ideal" cut since most of their stones are listed as "ideals." I was hoping to get some measurements or something concrete sent back. The reply was that customer service is their number one priority and that they use industry standards in determining the quality of the cut. I don't know that I believe that.

So, while I'm grateful to Shenoa for leading me here, I would never buy from them. I DO like a lot of the settings there, though!

 

[Carmen]

=(




In my opinion, You definitely HAVE TO get it appraised... and if you see they diamond and based on your own feelings, if you don't feel for it, don't like it in any way, RETURN IT. You don't want to spend that kind of money for something that you don't 100% love. When you really fall in love with something you see, you'll know it.




With what I've read, I doubt what they've advertised as their quality. With the money you are spending you can get a GREAT hearts and arrows cut with sites like




www.goodoldgold.com


or


www.superbcert.com




or if you want to save some money... just look for an ideal cut with these sites.... but you'll pay about the same price and better return policy...




Like goodoldgold offers 30 days money back...




And if they place only gives you five days.... there's something wrong with that.




They should have more confidence in their own products....at least I think so.. and if they don't... why should you?




Carmen

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/29/2003 5:18:11 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

aljdewey, you have some really good points- and that always seems to be the case with your posts- I really enjoy reading them!

------------

Thanks, David!

(I really gotta start paying you people more! LOL)

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 12/7/2003 6:46:18 PM aljdewey wrote:

------------

Thanks, David!

(I really gotta start paying you people more! LOL)

----------------[/quote]


Which reminds me, AL,..... I didn't get my last check. And, I worked overtime last week too!

 

[aljdewey]

Honey, EVERYONE worked overtime last weekend during my frenetic search!!! LOL




You guys are the best!

 

[pqcollectibles]

Babe! I am soo glad for you too! I can't wait for the cascade of Eye Candy that more than a few of us EXPECT!

 

[aljdewey]

Should be coming soon - heard from Rich S. tonight......he's doing the appraisal tomorrow but said it's a TOP TOP TOP SI2 - DEFINITELY eyeclean.




Oh, and he said - it's GORGEOUS .




I'm DYING to get it........I should have it Wednesday!

 

[pqcollectibles]

Wednesday????? and not Tuesday???? Sounds like Rich may like it just a tad too much! HeeHeeHeeHee

 

[aljdewey]

Wednesday......because he's appraising it Monday and then taking it Tuesday to a master setter to have it set in the setting for me.




He's SOOOOOO awesome......




I'll tell ya.....I never imagined I'd feel more trust in folks I never met than in those locally. This is one the largest purchases we've ever made, and it's without a doubt in the top three in terms on confidence.




Thank GOD for Pricescope!

 

[canadiangrrl]

PQ, Mara, and I are taking our cheques from you and buying adult-oriented refreshments. Because we need them now. Oh, and those red bodysuits, too. The cheques are in the mail, right? Whatever.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Rich is, without a doubt, one of the great treasures of Price Scope! He's Priceless!

 

[tinajakubin]

hi, i was just reading about the diamond that you purchased from shenoa & co. i just ordered a emerald cut diamond ring yesterday. my question is.........was the diamond that you ordered everything that you expected? was the color and clarity accurate to the description they gave you? are you completly satisfied? please e-mail me [email protected]

 

[kimv]

We are interested in a ring posted on ebay at Shenoa & Co, here is the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2693401797&category=45399&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1
We are wondering if it is worth the price or even worth buying and possibly returning if our appraiser finds that it was not a good deal. I understand from reading other postings on this site that Shenoa may be mis-representing the rings by using pictures that may not be the actual ring you are bidding on. The bottom line is that we are looking for a decent reasonable ring in an antique setting. I would appreciate anyones feedback.

 

[strmrdr]

"Opinions of appraisers may vary up to 25%"

They are giving themselves an out if an appraisal comes back low.
Also it appears to be an uncerted diamond.

Overall Id run run run run away.

 

[Nicrez]

I have been to Shenoa's 47th Street store, and although I didn't buy there, I had a really good experience with them. If anyone is thinking of buying from them online, here is the information you have for the guy I spoke to At Shenoe & Co.




Neil L. Papier


Senior Vice President


1 West 47th Street


New York, NY 10036


(212)764-1625


[email protected]




Maybe if someone specifically was held responsible for the item being shipped to purchasers from E-Bay, they would not have so many complaints. My thoughts. Find a ring you like, and call talk to Neil and make sure you have him verify the stone in an e-mail. Give him the accountability of being honest for his company, and I am sure people will have less issues. I liked them, but if people truly are getting ripped off, try this method.

 

[valeria101]

Following the link on Ebay I see that you have not bid o the ring yet. The price is alarmingly low... so this is either the bargain of the century or a hoax, regardless of what the reputation (which, unlike Nicrez, I ignore) of the associated B&M store is. In an F-SI stone, the color grade is the one that dictates value the most, so, I would not be in much hurry to buy such a stone uncertified. I see no papers readily available posted with the auction... not very reasuring. I am not very sure that this would be a 1 carat F-SI diamond or just a diamond ring worth 3k : both is not quite probable, in my view. For the "buy now" price you should be able to get a reliably certified diamond of this grade and a setting in the same range

BTW: no idea what they call 'vintage" setting, it is obviously a new ring.