Is it EVER OK to lie?

[Independent Gal]

A thread on BWW https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cake-ethics-101.77749/ got me thinking about so-called "white lies". It may be frivolous and icky to lie for the sake of pretty cake (at issue in that thread). But are there ever cases where you think that lying, while bad may be justified?

At the extreme: lying to save someone's life.

But what about things like: lying to keep somone's feelings from being seriously and pointlessly hurt? lying to avoid telling a secret you promised to keep? lying to fulfill other responsibilities (like, say you had to lie to get your child medicine she needed or something like that)

Other cases?

Just curious how you ladies think about stuff like this.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Hmmm...without coming off as Holier than thou..

I think any color of a lie is bad. Color should be something enjoyed and experienced with our eyes, not interpreted with our minds or more importantly our hearts.

The heart will still bleed red when any color of a lie is revealed.
(oh that was good...you can quote me on that one! I just made that up really. It isn''t a lie. White, grey or any shade! Woo Hoo!)

You know that other quote (that I didn''t make up) of CHARACTER IS WHO YOU ARE WHEN NO ONE IS WATCHING? I think you can take from that, that you are left with yourself and your choices. When it is all said and done, or when your head hits your pillow at night, why toil about the bad seed you have sown? Shouldn''t truth always prevail?

see your other thread for my

reply...

 

[phoenixgirl]

I'd like to meet a person who never lies. I think the difference is that we can convince ourselves that it's not a lie if we have a good reason.

When would I lie?

When even refusing to answer the question would betray a confidence or endanger someone. For example, I had a student ask to speak to me in the hall and tell me about physical abuse he was suffering. Another student asked me out of concern what the student had wanted to talk to me about. I figured saying something like, "Oh, I can't discuss that" or "It was private" would just make it obvious that he had told me something really bad, and I didn't know if he wanted others to know, so I made something up.

When dealing with someone irrational (think personality disorder), you know, the kind of people who manipulate and misinterpret and make trouble. If you work with these people, you can't always just decide not to interact with them. So sometimes you have to lie to keep them from having information that they might twist to use against you. There's this teacher at work who has been making up obvious lies to get students in trouble or to deflect blame if a parent confronts her. It's really scary, and I know I need to be very careful around this person until her lies catch up with her. So in essence, I have to lie to protect myself from the liar!

Other than these types of situations, I wouldn't lie. I hate it when people won't own up to little things they did wrong and make up obvious lies to cover it up. As long as you force yourself to be honest about those little mess-ups, I think you're less likely to make big mess-ups. I also think it's important for me to model integrity with my students. One time my profuse apologies to a boy whom I had incorrectly identified as being the one who threw something led to me developinng a great relationship with a troubled girl who lived in a group home. The kid was like, "Aw, shucks, don't make a big deal bout it," but the girl just nodded and said, "Yeah! You SHOULD apologize if you're wrong!" Now, that situation doesn't involve lying, but I think a lot of teachers adopt an attitude of "well, even if I was wrong, it wasn't my fault" so they wouldn't own up to it. And not owning up to what you've done is a kind of lying.

 

[Independent Gal]

DKS the question was whether lying while bad could still be justified. Moral principles often come into conflict. When they do, one of them doesn't stop mattering just because the other one takes over. Sometimes it's justifiable to do bad things. It stays 'bad' to do them, even when you're justified in doing so. It's also always bad to let someone die whom you could have saved, to hurt someone's feelings is always bad, not keeping your promises is terrible, and doesn't say much for your character, etc. So what I'm asking is, I'm curious where other people draw the line? What kinds of circumstances would someone lie in?

See what I mean?

So, no I personally don't think truth should always prevail. CERTAINLY not at the cost of someone's life. I would lie through my teeth if I knew where an innocent hunted person was hiding. I'm pretty sure I would gloss over things (lie by ommision) if my friend who interviewed at my organization last week asked what was said in the meeting following her interview (let's just say it was pretty horribly cruel). And I think I would lie and say "I don't know" if I had promised not to tell something, if saying "I promised not to tell" would be as good as telling. But in all those cases, it would still be bad to lie. Just, not quite as bad as being someone who let someone die, gratuitously allowed someone's ego to be crushed to no good end, or became someone who doesn't keep their promises.

Would you not? Not even to save a life? Not to sound holier than THOU, but if you wouldn't lie to save a life, I'd think you were pretty selfish - putting your conscience and purity above someone else's life. See what I mean?

 

[zoebartlett]

I''m not a fan of lying but I do believe there''s such thing as a harmless little white lie occasionally. Indy, I know I said in your cake thread that you wouldn''t have to lie if you chose another option, but I don''t think it would hurt anyone if you fibbed a tad.

 

[Independent Gal]

Hey Zoe, I actually don''t think the cake justifies lying at all.

It''s a cake! It''s not a person, know what I mean? But I think we found a way to tell him what''s what that doesn''t involve lying OR sticking him with the whole bill.

It just got me thinking about lying in general is all.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Indy...arghhh...your thread was WHITE lies...

You never mentioned I was PREFORMING A WHITE LIE to save a life. You are right I do sound like a crumb. Woa is me.

 

[Independent Gal]

Phoenix''s case about irrational or personality disorder people is an interesting one. Hmmmm.

 

[door knob solitaire]

ouch.

 

[Maisie]

I would lie in an instant if it meant saving someones life.

Other than that, I don''t like lying, and I hate being lied to.

I am not perfect and I have lied before.

As a christian I would repent if I lied, I would feel bad otherwise. I would say on the whole I don''t lie.

 

[neatfreak]

I think we all lie. It's part of human nature. But I only lie when my internal morality monitor tells me that the lie would do more good than the truth would. And I try not to lie per se, I just won't as honest as usual.

A good example is that if a friend shows me a dress they love and I hate, I won't lie and say I love it, but I won't be my usual brash honest to the hilt self. I will gauge their love for it, and if they really love it, I will just say something like "it really fits your personality". If they are asking my honest opinion on something however, and they aren't sure, then I'll be 100% honest about it.

Another good example is like something that happened last weekend. We went out to dinner with some friends and at the last second a mutual but not close friend called and really needed my help. I told her I could help, but had to be back at 7:30 because I had dinner plans. Which she unfortunately hadn't been invited to even though she is also friends with the other people. So I told a white lie and said it was arranged just at the last minute, and did she want to come? In my mind it was better than telling her she had been forgotten when we were making plans.

Hope that makes sense...


ETA: And in the case of more serious lies, I also would lie to save someones life, etc. without even thinking about it.

 

[Independent Gal]

Oh no! DKS what are you ouching about? I hope I didn''t offend you somehow! Didn''t mean to certainly.

 

[diamondfan]

I would lie in a heartbeat to save one of my kids or family member, to help an innocent person...all lies cannot be painted with the same brush.

I have even lied to save someone''s feelings when I think that the truth is only going to be hurtful and not really accomplish anything. I might consider a lie of omission versus an outright lie necessary sometimes. Sometimes telling the truth is only about making you feel better or clean or absolved, and it can really mess someone else up. Though I like to be pretty straighforward in life, does telling someone after the fact that you hated their hair style at a party really help? If asked, later, did I think it looked good, I might think about whether THEY liked it, or I might nicely say, Hey, I think THIS style would look awesome, what about trying that one tonight for a change? Or I might say, Hey, it was not my favorite look for you, I know how great you can look...so I am accomplishing somewhat of the same goal without being too blunt or hurtful. Things can be tempered so they are less hurtful. If one friend asked me if another person liked them or not, or said something about them, and I thought the truth necessary for someone''s well being, I might find a way to say it, otherwise I might just say I did not really know anything. Sometimes getting into the thick of things can make it much worse, and people can be angry at you later on for telling them the truth, though they might claim they want to hear it.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I''ve lied to spare someone''s feelings. I''ve lied about liking gifts. Of course I would lie to save someone''s life. I think the difference is the intention of the lies. I really don''t see the harm in white lies.

 

[somethingshiny]

I don''t lie (often) and I despise being lied to. I think lying (besides being a sin) is like saying "I think you''re dumb enough to believe this." Or, "I''m so much smarter than you, you''ll never figure this out." So it comes off very disrespectful and self-centered to me.


I think if a person plans a lie, it''s malicious. But, if a person lies to spare feelings, etc, it has no ill intent. But, I believe all lies will come back to bite you in the butt.

 

[Diamond*Dana]

I am not a fan of lying, but I cannot say that I have never told a lie either. I would, without a doubt, lie if it was a life or death situation, but I would not lie to purposely be deceptive. I would lie to avoid hurt feelings if it was nothing serious. I guess that it would all depend on the particular situation.

 

[bem3231]

Date: 2/2/2008 2:00:28 PM
Author: diamondfan
I would lie in a heartbeat to save one of my kids or family member, to help an innocent person...all lies cannot be painted with the same brush.


I have even lied to save someone''s feelings when I think that the truth is only going to be hurtful and not really accomplish anything. I might consider a lie of omission versus an outright lie necessary sometimes. Sometimes telling the truth is only about making you feel better or clean or absolved, and it can really mess someone else up. Though I like to be pretty straighforward in life, does telling someone after the fact that you hated their hair style at a party really help? If asked, later, did I think it looked good, I might think about whether THEY liked it, or I might nicely say, Hey, I think THIS style would look awesome, what about trying that one tonight for a change? Or I might say, Hey, it was not my favorite look for you, I know how great you can look...so I am accomplishing somewhat of the same goal without being too blunt or hurtful. Things can be tempered so they are less hurtful. If one friend asked me if another person liked them or not, or said something about them, and I thought the truth necessary for someone''s well being, I might find a way to say it, otherwise I might just say I did not really know anything. Sometimes getting into the thick of things can make it much worse, and people can be angry at you later on for telling them the truth, though they might claim they want to hear it.

I think that diamondfan makes a good point about the subtleties in lies of omission. While there have been examples here about lying to save someone''s feelings about an outfit, etc., a natural example for this board might be lying to save a friends feelings about their diamonds, given that not everyone is part of the PS enlightened diamond-informed set!

Since having begun the journey of diamond enlightenment, I have had several friends and co-workers get engaged. When they gush about their rings (as they certainly should and are entitled to!), I''ve heard things like "We were told that the most important thing is color and so this is a high color - what do you think?" when I know that cut is king and that they''ve purchased a poorly cut stone. To point that out, however, would seem trite and sort of condescending and would make them feel badly about something that should give them nothing but warm fuzzies. And so, such ''lies of omission'' when they are intended to preserve someone''s feelings are, in my opinion, justified, and do more good than harm.

Had they asked my opinion *before* purchasing a stone I would have, of course, directed them here and then their story might likely have had a different ending.

This is just one example - the whole topic of the justifiability of white lies is something that is so relative and personal, in my opinion.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I generally agree with DKS, but I think there is a place for tact. We might not love someone''s ring, but we can say, "Oh, what a pretty diamond!" I do think there is a time for holding back on our true feelings when it would hurt someone else.

I can think of another example, too. There was a time in the past where someone was harrassing one of my children before caller id. If I answered the phone, I might say my child was not there. A lie? Probably. But in order to protect your children, you may sometimes have to do that.

 

[ladypirate]

There was just an episode of House about this--interesting.

In the case of saving someone''s feelings, I can certainly understand the justification. Although I tend to go for the lies of omission rather than downright saying "no, of course you don''t look fat in that!"

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Another example.... Corrie Ten Boom''s family hid Jews from the Nazi''s and would have had to lie to protect those they were hiding in order to save their lives. I see no wrong in that, only good.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 2/2/2008 5:03:28 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Another example.... Corrie Ten Boom''s family hid Jews from the Nazi''s and would have had to lie to protect those they were hiding in order to save their lives. I see no wrong in that, only good.

I agree. That is the thing about lying. It isn''t black and white only shades of gray.

 

[lumpkin]

When it does more harm to be truthful and the truth is irrelevant anyway, I say lie a little. In the case of lying to save someone innocent, of course. When lying to save someone''s feelings, maybe it''s better not to completely lie, but for instance, if they ask if you like their new dress and it''s obvious they love it, you could surely find something about it to complement. To me that''s not really lying. When I think of lying I think of someone being deceitful, dishonest, or manipulative.

 

[isis~goddess]

yes, if you don''t want to hurt someone, of course. however, good wordsmithing can get you out of a total and complete lie, and then you don''t have to hurt someones feelings OR lie to avoid doing it.

 

[diamondfan]

I think it is about shades of grey. And I try to think of the impact. If my friend loves a dress that I think is hideous and she asks me my view, I would not say I love it just to please her, but I also might not be really blunt either. I would walk that fine line of moving her away from it and towards something else. Of course, an opinion IS subjective sometimes, so maybe my view that it is ugly is not really correct either. But, if asked, and offering my view, I would tread lightly in order to get my point across without being cruel. I also think sometimes the truth is not the issue, but rather, learning when and when to say something. If someone else is happy with their outfit, why go there if you disagree? If you have not been asked, sometimes silence is the better part of valor.

 

[firebirdgold]

I''m not saying it''s ok to lie, but I tend to ignore other people''s little lies due to the fact that I''m prone to telling them when stressed or feel trapped by a question. I''m not even making a pre-meditated choice to lie, it just comes out. Am I the only one who does this? (feel free to lie to make me feel better!

)

 

[perry]

Indy:

Great question and my view goes like this:

A line from a movie.... "You want the truth.... You can''t handle the truth..." In some situations that is a true statement (but a lot fewer than many people believe - more often it is in how the situation - the truth - is presented and explained).

There are people who are generally honest, and those that generally lie.

The generally honest ones tell the truth on a number of things even when it does not present themselves in the best light - and also expect to be told the truth and are really disapointed when they are not.

The generally dishonest ones sees lies as the normal way that the business of life is done and the normal way of getting ahead.

I am sure there are people in the middle as they transition from one position to another (and such transitions are possible as I''ve done it - went from being generally dishonest as a kid to generally honest).

But, the generally honest ones still lie. There is a ballance in life - and most people feel the need, usually appropriately, to protect their own and others privacy over telling someone else such information.

There is also the fact that you can affect your mental outlook or position by repeating statements to yourself - that while not currently true - can be true if we convince ourselves of it (mental conditioning of our attitudes and personal beliefs).

Items told to you in confidence are just that - and while their are situations where I feel you should break the confidence and tell someone; those tend to be extreem situations where great harm is imminent (i.e. someone tells you that they are going to kill someone). However, you should also be carefull of what you agree to keep confident (or who you agree to have as a confident).

Telling a lie to prevent a persons feelings from being hurt. Depends on the situation, the issue, and how important that person is to you- and what they expect of you. Telling a lie over a cake - not something I would do.

Let me tell you what I believe the biggest trouble area is on this subject: Maritial fidelity....

Will you promise that you will forever be my only partner? How many people expect that in marriage. How many people only want to here "yes" as the answer. So what if I say no... up front. What happens to the marriage if something happens later on in life when people said "yes". I have watched whole families be destroyed over that one (many times).

What if I tell you up front no... I won''t promise that because there are certain extreem situations in life that if they arose would be more important than that.

Indy you raise the point that you would lie to save a persons life. Would you play the part of their S.O or spouse to save their life if needed (and I mean really fully act in all ways as their S.O or spouse)?

So on that issue (marital fedelity): Do I tell a white lie with the anwer of "yes" and set up a potential crises in the future; do I tell the truth and say that while I would not look for outside relationships - and would work hard to kill of any somewhat normal interest by others - that there are certain normally rare extreem situations in life that if they occur that I would be willing to have sex with others, and some gray areas in between the two. That I would hope that those extreem situations never occured to me (or her - it goes both ways), but surviving - or doing the most good - in those situations would be more imporatant; and marriage on a whole is more important and about a lot more than just being absolutely totally faithfull regardless of the situation).

Part of the question of when it is OK to lie - and for what kind of situations it would be OK to lie gets into the question of properely considering the implications of what it is that a person asks and expects from another up front. For me, allowing some flexibility in many things seems to work best (both in questions and answers). Then I look at the overall whole on how things are stacking up.

Honestly yours,

Perry

 

[Independent Gal]

So many interesting thoughts and ideas!

I just want to engage one thing Perry said. It''s intereseting about the marital fidelity case. If FI didn''t fully intend to be faithful to me forever, no matter what, there is no way I could marry him. If he verbally said "I promise I''ll always be faithful" and then cheated, what would destroy the family wouldn''t be that he had broken the promise, but that he had cheated. So, I don''t think it''s necessarily the promising to be faithful (or lying about it) that destroys families. It''s the cheating (or not).

The case about saving someone''s life is interesting because I framed "would you lie for that?" as "would you sacrifice your integrity as a truth-teller and dirty your conscience because the other person''s life is more important than your feeling of purity?" So you up the ante: how much of your sense of self and integrity WOULD you sacrifice for someone else''s life? Would you violate your marriage vows, e.g.? An interesting question. And one I definitely need coffee before attempting to answer.

 

[perry]

Indi... Thanks for the consideration.

Actually, the question is also one that probably millions of women face when being rapped. Most rapes are not about being absolutely forced beyond all fight... They often are at some point a realization that - the best way for me to survive is to stop fighting (or perhaps the best way to survive in the best shape is to stop fighting).

Now has that person broken a fidelity vow (assuming they made one)? If someone threatens to inflict great emotional or bodily harm if they don''t cooperate - is it breaking the such a vow?

Of course it is breaking such a vow... from a literall standpoint. You have not been faithfull - you did allow it. But a person''s life and well being is more important (at least that is the way I see it); and I consider that the vow was inappropriate for those situations and never should have been asked to have been absolute.

I personally know a gal who was rapped - and her current boyfriend was furious becasue she was not faithfull.. she must have asked for it... and she should have faught to her death if necessary. How juvinal in my book.

I also personally know a gal that was a real political refuge from Haiti - who''s family was executed, and would almost certainly be executed on the spot is she returned to Haiti (this was years ago).

The US government initially denied her appropriate imigration status. We actually discussed the concept of marriage in order to save her life. Now others were able to raise money through a religious orginzation to hire a high powered immegration lawyer for her... which did get her a stay in exportation - and eventually green card and imigration status. But, we were probably about 1 week away from getting married. I was single, and we were otherwise casual freinds (and we had never dated). But would she have married me instead of being exported and executed; yes. Would I have married her for the same reason; yes. What kind of marriage would it have been... a very interesting one I am sure. Would it have lasted. Not sure... (last I heard that she was happily married to another person from Haiti and both are now US citizens, and it has been over a decade since I''ve seen her at a freinds house at this point).

But before those two situations I had to consider a situation with my sister.... My background is such that I have personally seen the woman sex slave industry in the third world (late 1970''s). I have been where $100 US would buy you a young lady as your personal sex/ torture slave (teenager, older; caucasion, aisian, african, spanish, etc) to do with as you wanted (even kill if you wanted); and they would drug her so she would not resist or feel pain if that is what you wanted (and dispose of her body - or even of her the next day if she was beyond use in the brothels). The brothels were full of such young ladies which could be hired for normal services for $10 US, and you could get a full night for $20.

Some years later when I was in college my younger sister takes up with a guy from a place where young occasionally ladies go missing (if you catch my meaning) to supply such trade. As a break from college he offered her a job in the local resort town (his family owned major resort property) if she would travel home with him.

I was concerned, but she wanted to be with him. So I told my sister that if something happened - if she did not feel right - that I would immediately come and get her, all she had to do was get word to me. If she disappeared I would come find her.

Now I have never paid any prostitute for services as it is against my personal morality, and I have never had any 1 night stands with strangers either for similar reasons (I really do want to about a gal in other ways first). I have obviously had many opportunities becasue I have been in many a brothel becasue that was where the guys wanted to be - and safety was by being in groups. But, I would sleep through every brothel in the way to find my sister - or my wife should she be kidnapped and sold into the sex slavery ring. I would even buy her myself and use her myself if necessary to get her out; and I''m not going to appologize to anyone nor consider my actions immoral (now others may consider me very immoral for such a stand; tough).

It is experiences like that which make me carefull of what people are asking - and make me understand that in this morally imperfect world - some times doing the "right" thing means making choices that may not look right from another perspective.

Thus, I do not ask anyone to commit to such absolute statements. That does not mean that there are not conditions that I am not willing to commit to - and that I am going to ask my wife to commit to a similar level. Key thing though. There should not be any guilt - nor reason to hide what happened - if anyone finds themselves in an extreem situation and does what seems to be the best thing for that situation.

I do admit that I would be concerned if someone somehow always seemed to be getting into such extreem situations.

Oh, my sister returned safely, did marry the guy here, and quiclky divorced him when she found out that the he was sleeping arround immediately every time she was gone on a trip (even overnight). She has since told me that my promising to come and get her was one of the greatist things I ever did for her as she realized when she got there that she was in over her head - and could only hang on and enjoy the area and experience because she knew that I would come and get her at a call.

Do have a great day, and do consider the implications of what you are asking and expecting from others. So when a person ask a question - what is it they are really asking. Are you lying if you answer the question from a perspective that the other person is thinking the question ask.

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

perry,

you have said in many words and good examples something that was said to me years ago regarding being an adult and following the law: the adult weights the situation and makes a decision and does not follow the law blindly. these words apply also to lies. while we may all abhor lying and being lied to, i will and do lie when the occasion calls for it. many many things many many times can be handled by evasion, but some cannot. if anyone asks me if my friend "x" is gay, i would rather say i don''t know, its never come iup n conversation. a lie, yes. but to say i don''t know, you''ll have to ask him is still a lie and may put him into a confrontation with someone he''s not ready or willing to deal with since he''s not out.

movie zombie

 

[Haven]

This is an interesting topic, and it reminded me of the Scientific American Mind mag issue from summer of 2005. There were some excellent articles in there about lying and why we lie, and even how everyone lies (even if we don''t want to admit it.) If I was more ambitious I''d scan some of the articles into the computer to post, but alas--it''s game day, and I have papers to grade.

As far as lying to save a life is concerned, I would do it. I would also lie to spare someone''s feelings, and in fact I think people do that all the time, especially on Pricescope--I''ve read many threads where brides change their choice of ring or dress or venue or whathaveyou, and then people who posted in the affirmative in the original thread repost in the new thread saying how they didn''t really like the first choice and they think this one is much better.

I have to say that anyone who truly views lying as a black-and-white issue reminds me of the earlier stages of moral development as Kohlberg saw it--remember the Heinz dilemma from Psych 101 in college? I just don''t believe it''s as simple as "lying is always wrong" and "the truth is always right." Sorry, I wish the world was that simplistic, but it just isn''t.