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Insurance for Antique Damaged Stone

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elrohwen

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Date: 2/28/2010 2:11:17 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
OK, this is gonna sound crazy, but I am not sure if buying separate insurance for your ring is really that great an option anyways.

You will never replace the sentiment, so it doesn't help with that. You did not pay out of pocket for the diamond, so you don't need insurance to cover that either. I have no clue what they would try to offer you as 'like kind and quality' if it were lost anyways! I don't think you would want what they would offer. So what does insurance really get for you? The only way it would help is if you get a cash-out policy so that you can buy what you like with the insurance money. But that will cost more. In a sense, you only really need to cover the cost of the setting. Typically, your homeowners policy automatically covers jewelery up to a certain value (in our case it is $5k), with a small deductible. The only benefit to a separate rider is to cover a greater value or to have no deductible. In your shoes I would be tempted to just let the home owner's policy cover the setting (which would require an appraisal listing its value), and just accept the risk on the diamond.

And yes, my husband works in insurance
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D_D, that's definitely something else to think about. My worry is that, if it were lost, even if we got back the $2500 we paid, buying a new stone would cost a lot of money. If the insurance agreed to purchase something similar, would I be able to add money to that? I would be willing to throw in $4k extra to buy a nicer stone of the same size, for example. I just don't know if I would be able to put up the $10k required to buy a nice stone out of pocket. I'll talk about your idea with DH (and Travelers) and see what he thinks.

A cash out policy would absolutely be the best - I'm interested in Chubbs and I'm going to try to find out if I could meet their minimum $12k requirement somehow. Perhaps if I get a pair of studs or something in the next few years I could bring the total (including my ering and other two rings) up to their minimum. Also, if they insure items other than jewelry, I have a cello worth a bit (covered under renter's at the moment) that I could get appraised and added on - assuming they would count that towards the $12k. I really need to call them and do some investigating. Getting cash is really the only way to ensure I get something comparable if I lost my ring. Of course, the premium may be more than we're willing to pay. It claims 1-3% on the value, and 1% wouldn't be outrageous, while 3% would probably be too much.

This is some great insight thought. Lots of things I didn't think of originally when we had it insured.


For denverappraiser, here are the rest of the details. I was pretty shocked at how spready and shallow it is - it really looks pretty in person, so I didn't expect those numbers. Plus, OECs are usually on the deep end of the spectrum, not shallow. In addition to the chip, the description talks about a black inclusion - almost invisible to the eye. I can see it, but I've spent time staring at it. Unless I look for it, I don't normally see it.

Shape: Old European Cut
Weight: 1.67ct
Size: Max Diameter - 7.88mm. Min Diameter - 7.85mm. Depth - 4.55mm
Depth Percentage - 57.9%
Girdle: Medium, rough
Clarity: I2
Color: H
Symmetry: Fair
Culet: Large
Polish: Fair
Fluorescence: None
Description: An internal characteristic can be seen reaching the surface from the crown to table facets. A large girdle chip can also be noted crossing a facet junction and reaching into a crown facet and the pavilion. It also extends and crosses a pavilion facet and extends to the culet.
 

Dreamer_D

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I think you need to ask the insurance company how it will work if there was a loss.
 

elrohwen

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Date: 2/28/2010 2:30:18 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
I think you need to ask the insurance company how it will work if there was a loss.
Definitely. I''ll do some calling around tomorrow. Thanks for your help
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denverappraiser

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I’m with DD, this may not be a good prospect for insurance at all but a declared value policy seems like your best bet if you can get one. Be aware that the premiums on this type of policy are usually higher, often double or more. I mention this because you switched away from Travelers in order to get lower premiums and you will almost certainly be going the other direction here. It's also not certain that you can get an insurer to agree to insure the ring only, without the diamond. They might, but be sure to ask your agent if this is even a choice if you're considering it.

There’s a couple of ways that appraisers address things like this in terms of documentation. They can value it based on the ‘pre-damage’ condition and then deduct the loss in value from the damage; they can value it based on the recut potential less the cost of repairs; they can value it based on what one like it would cost on the open market in it's present condition (difficult because, as you’ve observed, things like this don’t trade frequently in the open market). Ask them how they came by that value conclusion and discuss with them your concerns. I agree that $6k retail seems a little low to me for most methods assuming it’s otherwise an SI1 from the other inclusion and that the repair potential remains over 1.50cts but, again, I haven’t seen the stone and they have. Not that it matters but from the picture but I wouldn’t call that an Old European Cut.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

elrohwen

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Date: 2/28/2010 3:56:50 PM
Author: denverappraiser
I’m with DD, this may not be a good prospect for insurance at all but a declared value policy seems like your best bet if you can get one. Be aware that the premiums on this type of policy are usually higher, often double or more. I mention this because you switched away from Travelers in order to get lower premiums and you will almost certainly be going the other direction here.

There’s a couple of ways that appraisers address things like this. They can value it based on the ‘pre-damage’ condition and then deduct the loss in value from the damage; they can value it based on the recut potential less the cost of repairs; they can value it based on what one like it would cost on the open market in it''s present condition (difficult because, as you’ve observed, things like this don’t trade frequently in the open market). Ask them how they came by that value conclusion and discuss with them your concerns. I agree that $6k retail seems a little low to me for most methods assuming it’s otherwise an SI1 from the other inclusion and that the repair potential remains over 1.50cts but, again, I haven’t seen the stone and they have. Not that it matters but from the picture but I wouldn’t call that an Old European Cut.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Interesting. What would you call the cut? I would personally put it in the transitional catagory - it''s certainly not an RB, but it''s not an old OEC either. It has the flower petal pattern commonly associated with transitionals.
 

elrohwen

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Date: 2/28/2010 4:06:39 PM
Author: denverappraiser
It looks like a modern round brilliant to me, albeit a spready one.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Really? I don''t see that at all. I''ve compared it with RBs and it looks significantly different in the facet pattern. Maybe the picture is misleading.
 

denverappraiser

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I'm sure he/she called it OEC because they see a 'large' culet, which I'm not seeing in the picture. 60%ish table, 57.9%depth, long lgf's that look about 75%+ all sounds pretty modern. If it truly has a big culet and I'm just missing it in the picture I'ld call it transitional.

'Round Brilliant' covers a lot of different looks.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

elrohwen

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Date: 2/28/2010 4:11:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser
I'm sure he/she called it OEC because they see a 'large' culet, which I'm not seeing in the picture. 60%ish table, 57.9%depth, long lgf's that look about 75%+ all sounds pretty modern.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
I do agree with the second part - the dimensions are not OEC-esque. The culet really isn't visible either without a loupe (at least not to me), so not sure why it was considered large in the appraisal. Though I've had a few jewelers call it an OEC (at first glance). And as I said, I see quite a difference in facet pattern between it and RBs (even an RB from the '40s that my mom owns). Could the difference in facet patterns be related to the spread?

By its history, I would put it in the 1920s - I should really ask DH's grandfather when it was purchased which would help place the cut.

eta: It could also be that the cut is wonky, and I'm used to seeing more ideal cut diamonds. Not sure. As I said, it's very different from my mom's RB (her mother's originally) - hers looks more like a typical RB facet pattern, but my stone has better light performance, which doesn't make much sense to me considering the depth.
 

elrohwen

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I just found the appraisal from 1981 and it calls the stone a modern round brilliant, interestingly enough. It doesn't have much other information as it was done while set and not loose. The chip was already present.

Also, I actually can see the culet, but only if I look carefully. It's not nearly as large as most I've seen in pictures of OECs, OMCs, etc but it's there. It's only possible to see when the ring is tilted so that light comes through it, rather than having the ring band behind it.
 

elrohwen

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Unfortunately, the table % isn''t included on the appraisal, but I''m getting anywhere from 53-55% when I measure using a graphics program. Not totally accurate, but the best I can do.
 

denverappraiser

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Date: 2/28/2010 4:30:02 PM
Author: elrohwen
I just found the appraisal from 1981 and it calls the stone a modern round brilliant
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Date: 2/28/2010 4:58:42 PM
Author: elrohwen
Unfortunately, the table % isn't included on the appraisal, but I'm getting anywhere from 53-55% when I measure using a graphics program. Not totally accurate, but the best I can do.
If you’ve got a straight from the top view photo then looking and measuring the table with photoshop or something similar works pretty darned well to calculate table percentage. Remember there are 4 different table measurements and it’s the biggest flat-to-flat (not point-to-point) dimension that you’re looking for and you divide by the average of the min and max diameter. Tilting the stone in the images seems to screw up the measurements but I'm not sure why. 55% is entirely believable, I didn't actually measure anything, I was just guessing. You can get a decent estimate of the lgf and star facets this way too.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Dreamer_D

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From the photo I too was thinking that it looked like a modern RB more than an OEC.
 

elrohwen

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Thanks to both of you for giving me more information on the cut! It''s something I''ve always been curious about. I plan to buy more antique diamonds in the future, but at the moment I don''t really have much first hand experience with when a cut is transitional vs RB.
 
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