I''m rather fed up with people making slight remarks about Americans!

[yssie]

Date: 12/18/2009 5:50:33 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade
Just a cultural insight from a Chinese person:

I think another reason in China for the 'stupid American' stereotype is that compared to the Chinese school systems, the American ones are 'easy' on students. They tend to think China is the more academically stringent country, and to a degree, they are correct in that the pressure and prestige related to doing well in school is extremely high there. There are relatively few colleges there compared to the US, and children start taking aptitude tests in middle school in order to apply to high schools. College applications are nationalized and basically consist of your test scores, and the competition is much more intense and rigorous than in the US. In China, you never really hear things like 'It's ok, not everyone gets A's', it's more like 'You will get A's or your life will be miserable'.

I think the fact that America as a country doesn't stress academic competition as much and most students can go to college if they want due to the number of community colleges, kind of gives some Chinese people the impression that as a country, America isn't as 'smart'. Personally in my family, I've had cousins seek schooling in Canada and England because they wouldn't have been able to get into a good enough college in China to be competitive in the job market after they graduated. And believe me when I say the academic competition and white collar job competition there is fierce. I attend an Ivy League medical school here in the US, so I'm no stranger to competition, but I think I would have suffered a nervous breakdown trying to make it into an elite institution in China.

The sad thing is, most Chinese people think the system works and produces the best and brightest. But personally, in comparing stories with my cousins who grew up there, it really seems just to stifle creativity and turn kids into cynical and bitter stress balls. I love that the American education system values more than just test scores. But that's a different rant.

Anyways, just thought I'd add that in because honestly, although not everyone there thinks all Americans are dumb, there is a widespread belief in China that it's easier to be 'dumb' in America because you can still lead a comfortable life without a Harvard diploma.

ETA: Also, shows like Paris Hiltons' The Simple Life don't exactly help either.
ETA2: I once had a woman confide in me that she prefers Asian physicians because we are smarter and have better hygiene...I really didn't know how to react to that.

I have to second this observation from one Indian perspective.


I went to school in India for 7 months, in the middle of year - 6th grade equivalent. My parents left me with extended family for health reasons, and went back home to work, and I was already miserable without them, so my story is biased due to circumstance if nothing else, but I'll offer it anyway:


I had math (algebra and geometry separately), english, foreign language, art, Indian history, world history, botany, biology, and intro chemistry. I had the advantage of coming from an English-speaking country, and I was up to par in math, bio and chem only because my parents had always insisted I study beyond the regular curriculum in these subjects - I definitely would've been woefully behind otherwise. My brain was being intellectually pushed to its utmost.


I couldn't have been happier to get out of there and back to my old school. I was beyond stressed out, had absolutely no friends - in fact, most of the kids were really horrid to the foreign student who "looked like them but acted so differently", and even the teachers treated me differently - some liked me and were kind and helpful, some rejoiced in mocking me for what I didn't know. I hadn't done anything in a team for over half a year, let alone class excursions or anything like that, and I'd been rapped over the knuckles with a ruler once for not finishing my homework, and again for saying that couldn't possibly be allowed. Everything was literally by the textbook, I learnt quickly enough not to voice my own opinions if they different from those of the teacher or 1st or 2nd ranked students, and the attitude was "do or die", even at that young age.


I certainly would've been a very, very different person had I been schooled in such an environment for any extended period of time.


I definitely agree there's a lot of stigma concerning the western schooling style in some places, but having experienced both, it's so much easier to laugh off misguided commentary as just that.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 12/18/2009 5:50:33 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade
Just a cultural insight from a Chinese person:

I think another reason in China for the ''stupid American'' stereotype is that compared to the Chinese school systems, the American ones are ''easy'' on students. They tend to think China is the more academically stringent country, and to a degree, they are correct in that the pressure and prestige related to doing well in school is extremely high there. There are relatively few colleges there compared to the US, and children start taking aptitude tests in middle school in order to apply to high schools. College applications are nationalized and basically consist of your test scores, and the competition is much more intense and rigorous than in the US. In China, you never really hear things like ''It''s ok, not everyone gets A''s'', it''s more like ''You will get A''s or your life will be miserable''.

I think the fact that America as a country doesn''t stress academic competition as much and most students can go to college if they want due to the number of community colleges, kind of gives some Chinese people the impression that as a country, America isn''t as ''smart''. Personally in my family, I''ve had cousins seek schooling in Canada and England because they wouldn''t have been able to get into a good enough college in China to be competitive in the job market after they graduated. And believe me when I say the academic competition and white collar job competition there is fierce. I attend an Ivy League medical school here in the US, so I''m no stranger to competition, but I think I would have suffered a nervous breakdown trying to make it into an elite institution in China.

The sad thing is, most Chinese people think the system works and produces the best and brightest. But personally, in comparing stories with my cousins who grew up there, it really seems just to stifle creativity and turn kids into cynical and bitter stress balls. I love that the American education system values more than just test scores. But that''s a different rant.

Anyways, just thought I''d add that in because honestly, although not everyone there thinks all Americans are dumb, there is a widespread belief in China that it''s easier to be ''dumb'' in America because you can still lead a comfortable life without a Harvard diploma.

And there''s definitely a jealousy component. The rights and opportunities we enjoy, the freedom we have to chase our own happiness, the social safety nets in case we stumble, it''s something to be envious about. I used to be angry that my cousins would belittle my accomplishment in school because ''oh, it''s so much easier in America'', but it''s hard to be mad at them knowing how tough it can be there.

Ditto!!

on everything that you said from this "DUMB" Chinese dude.

 

[loriken214]

America is such a melting pot of cultures and I find it hard to find a "typical" American to criticize. Who exactly are they referring to when they make such comments? I would like to expand upon their idea of a common American and what is so awful about them.

Lori

 

[noelwr]

Date: 12/18/2009 4:17:08 PM
Author: zipzapgirl
Especially the Europeans, who then start to feel very sorry for us with their 6 weeks vacation

this European gets ONLY 5 weeks per year!

 

[beebrisk]

"Americans are stupid" "Americans are rude" "Americans are loud".

Yeah, whatever.

Fact is, "Americans" live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it "stupid, rude and loud", without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?

As for the "fanny pack carrying" American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.

The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not "Americans" that are the ignorant ones.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM
Author: beebrisk
''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.

Yeah, whatever.

Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?

As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.

The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

Really? The ONE country eh? What about the boat people seeking asylum trying to get to Australia?

"Fact is" eh? I hope you were trying to sound like the ignorant American we''re poking fun at....

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 12/19/2009 4:01:34 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM

Author: beebrisk

''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.


Yeah, whatever.


Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?


As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.


The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

Really? The ONE country eh? What about the boat people seeking asylum trying to get to Australia?


''Fact is'' eh? I hope you were trying to sound like the ignorant American we''re poking fun at....

I understand that for reasons of logistics, etc., we are not the ONLY place people come for freedom. However, immigration is a huge and rich part of our history and the country continues to beckon the oppressed all over the world. I would safely say of those who look for asylum around the globe, *most* dream of coming to America...as opposed to say, Australia.

But I suppose that would make me seem arrogant and ignorant to some. As opposed to just downright nasty like your comment. Oh well....

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/19/2009 4:28:49 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 12/19/2009 4:01:34 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM

Author: beebrisk

''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.


Yeah, whatever.


Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?


As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.


The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

Really? The ONE country eh? What about the boat people seeking asylum trying to get to Australia?


''Fact is'' eh? I hope you were trying to sound like the ignorant American we''re poking fun at....

I understand that for reasons of logistics, etc., we are not the ONLY place people come for freedom. However, immigration is a huge and rich part of our history and the country continues to beckon the oppressed all over the world. I would safely say of those who look for asylum around the globe, *most* dream of coming to America...as opposed to say, Australia.

But I suppose that would make me seem arrogant and ignorant to some. As opposed to just downright nasty like your comment. Oh well....

But you said we were the ONE country. You don''t think other countries don''t "beckon" the oppressed?

And wow, you would presume to know what *most* dream of? Yeah, that comes across arrogant and ignorant. If pointing that out makes me nasty, I would far rather be called nasty any day.

I do love this country. My family immigrated so I''m the first to say that this country is great. And it is the power that it is for a reason. But its people can also be ignorant and arrogant for that reason.

 

[steph72276]

I think people that make huge blanket generalizations are the stupid ones. In a country of millions from different backgrounds/races/cultures there are going to be all kinds of people...ignorant, rude, brilliant, kind, etc.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 12/19/2009 5:40:52 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 12/19/2009 4:28:49 PM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 12/19/2009 4:01:34 PM

Author: TravelingGal

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM


Author: beebrisk


''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.



Yeah, whatever.



Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?



As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.



The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

Really? The ONE country eh? What about the boat people seeking asylum trying to get to Australia?



''Fact is'' eh? I hope you were trying to sound like the ignorant American we''re poking fun at....

I understand that for reasons of logistics, etc., we are not the ONLY place people come for freedom. However, immigration is a huge and rich part of our history and the country continues to beckon the oppressed all over the world. I would safely say of those who look for asylum around the globe, *most* dream of coming to America...as opposed to say, Australia.


But I suppose that would make me seem arrogant and ignorant to some. As opposed to just downright nasty like your comment. Oh well....

But you said we were the ONE country. You don''t think other countries don''t ''beckon'' the oppressed?


And wow, you would presume to know what *most* dream of? Yeah, that comes across arrogant and ignorant. If pointing that out makes me nasty, I would far rather be called nasty any day.


I do love this country. My family immigrated so I''m the first to say that this country is great. And it is the power that it is for a reason. But its people can also be ignorant and arrogant for that reason.

It wasn''t the "pointing out" that was nasty. After all, "it''s not WHAT you say, but how you say it".

As for other countries "beckoning" the oppressed. I''m sure they do. I was reflecting on our particular history as it''s been such an integral part--and indeed the reason we exist today. The New Colossus, written as a testament to this speaks volumes. If that''s arrogant and ignorant, I''ll happily be labeled as such.

Last I looked however, the US doesn''t exactly have a monopoly on arrogance or ignorance.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Haha, this is a semantics thing, but as someone who has spent time in various countries and talked to many people about their dreams of immigrating to America, I have to disclose that most want to come to America because of the opportunity, not necessarily the company. Which I find kind of funny but understandable since I think most people feel safer and more comfortable around people of their own cultural background.

I always thought it was funny when in China, I'd talk to people who think Americans are ignorant and arrogant. I think it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black, because it wasn't so long ago that China thought itself the center of the universe, and turned away valuable western science because it was convinced that the Chinese were vastly superior and wouldn't be able to learn anything from "the barbarians". Whoopsy.

Also "rude" is very subjective. I think it's only rude if you refuse to adjust your behavior even after being made aware of it's inappropriateness, and insist on acting in a contrary way. Like if I ask you to take your shoes off before coming inside, and you big-fat don't do it because you like your shoes, then I'll think it's rude. I think many people that think Americans are "rude" are just being too quick to judge, and they might find that taking some time out to teach us the norms would help both parties.

 

[hihowareyou]

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM
Author: beebrisk
''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.


Yeah, whatever.


Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?


As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.


The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

From an Australian perspective, this is exactly the attitude that has us calling Americas arrogant and obnoxious. Australia may not be the huge powerhouse that America is and we have our problems (don''t try to tell me America doesn''t have some too) but there is ample opportunity here, thousands seek asylum here every year and who are you to say on their behalf that they would rather be in America?

I think America is a great country and can understand that as a citizen you can feel free to live in a bubble where the American way is the only way and you are living in the best country on earth. When you say/publish comments like the ones above however, you are implying that people who live in other countries are experiencing a lessor existence, don''t then be surprised when they get defensive and call you arrogant. Belonging to the majority gives your words an enormous amount of power to disregard other cultures and ways of living as ''wrong'', ''unimportant'', etc. You assume that everyone wants to live in America, just like the assumption that all americans are loud and stupid it is a huge generalization. The difference is that your words wield much more power.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 12/19/2009 7:16:58 PM
Author: hihowareyou

Date: 12/19/2009 2:49:14 PM

Author: beebrisk

''Americans are stupid'' ''Americans are rude'' ''Americans are loud''.



Yeah, whatever.



Fact is, ''Americans'' live in the country where much of the rest of the world wants to be. Americans live in the one country that people literally KILL themselves to get to. Americans also live in a country where many have died to secure the right to call it ''stupid, rude and loud'', without reprisal. Can Mrs. X say all this about hers?



As for the ''fanny pack carrying'' American tourists in their sneakers and baseball caps? Well, their money is as good as anyones.



The remarks make me angry too, but really just reaffirms the idea that perhaps it''s not ''Americans'' that are the ignorant ones.

From an Australian perspective, this is exactly the attitude that has us calling Americas arrogant and obnoxious. Australia may not be the huge powerhouse that America is and we have our problems (don''t try to tell me America doesn''t have some too) but there is ample opportunity here, thousands seek asylum here every year and who are you to say on their behalf that they would rather be in America?


I think America is a great country and can understand that as a citizen you can feel free to live in a bubble where the American way is the only way and you are living in the best country on earth. When you say/publish comments like the ones above however, you are implying that people who live in other countries are experiencing a lessor existence, don''t then be surprised when they get defensive and call you arrogant. Belonging to the majority gives your words an enormous amount of power to disregard other cultures and ways of living as ''wrong'', ''unimportant'', etc. You assume that everyone wants to live in America, just like the assumption that all americans are loud and stupid it is a huge generalization. The difference is that your words wield much more power.

Amazing how you can deduce from my post that I believe others live a "lessor existence" and that I assume everyone wants to live here. Hmmm.

While I do believe in American exceptionalism in many ways I am hardly alone. What I feel as pride, perhaps others perceive as arrogance. And no-that NEVER surprises me. Unlike the president however, I will not apologize for it.

Treading on forbidden waters in the forum, so I''ll end it there.

 

[loriken214]

I have a penpal that came to America from Ireland in 1986. He got his college degree here and has fathered 4 children from two American women here. He HATES America, but still he''s here for the opportunities that she affords him. He refuses to become an American citizen and carries his green card.

Even though this person HATES this country, he still came here for his education and for job opportunities. It is easy to condemn America, but she''s here to use when you need her.

Lori

 

[justginger]

I think I used to be an arrogant, ignorant American. And then I started traveling - and moved abroad. And I realized, "Hey - there are a LOT of great places to live in this world!! America isn''t the center of the universe!" I''ve become much more accepting of the way that other people do things, because I''ve seen that not only do they work, but people are legitimately happy. I honestly could name no less than a dozen countries in which I would happily live - every single place has a delicate balance of pros and cons.

It is natural instinct to defend what is your''s and to think it''s not only acceptable, but great. Look at children from parents who are less than ideal...if given the option to stay with them or go to a really fantastic neighbor, surely 9 times out of 10 they''d choose to stay. You love what you know - and what you''ve been TOLD is great (thanksm convincing propaganda). Additionally, the United States has been *the* international superpower for decades now. It''s difficult for most Americans to even consider that that status may eventually slip, if it isn''t already.

I get sick to DEATH of Americans, honestly -- and I am one.

I get sick of them because their actions in the international community directly impact me, and more often than not, it''s in a negative way. I have defended America and Americans from so much trash talking and petty comments, it''s not even amusing any more. I loathe seeing really overweight, loud, rude, arrogant Americans ruining tourist experiences for other people (thankfully we don''t get too many in Australia because realistically, Americans who can afford to travel down here are usually well educated and socially aware). It makes me cringe, because I know that the people they interact with will log the experience in their minds -- and when they meet me and hear my accent, they''ll subconsciously paint me with the same brush.

So, yes, I also get tired of defending Americans and listening to idiotic anti-American dribble. But on the flip side of that, I also get tired of listening to my countrymen touting that it''s the ONLY place in the world to live. Many people in the world are blessed with their various homes. In fact, one of my coworkers is from India, then lived in Kenya, and when it came time to pick a forever home, her sister chose the US, her brother chose the UK, and she chose Australia. I think all three did pretty damn good.

 

[LilyKat]

Date: 12/20/2009 12:24:20 AM
Author: loriken214
I have a penpal that came to America from Ireland in 1986. He got his college degree here and has fathered 4 children from two American women here. He HATES America, but still he''s here for the opportunities that she affords him. He refuses to become an American citizen and carries his green card.


Even though this person HATES this country, he still came here for his education and for job opportunities. It is easy to condemn America, but she''s here to use when you need her.


Lori

Loriken, not sure exactly what you''re trying to imply by this, but I''d say your friend is the exception rather than the rule. The majority of immigrants bend over backwards to try to fit into their new home, go to great lengths to be accepted, and have a great respect and affection for it. The attitude that all (or most) immigrants "use" America (or any of their host countries) while "hating" it... is a popular misconception that just makes me a little uncomfortable.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[Tuckins1]

Well, as an American, I also am tired of hearing how terrible we are. I know a lot of jerks that are from various locations around the world, and I also know MANY wonderful, kind, caring people who are from the US.... I also hate it when I hear people making stupid comments about other nationalities... like "French people are wussies", or "Arab people smell". Ignorance knows no nationalities.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 12/20/2009 6:31:53 AM
Author: justginger
I think I used to be an arrogant, ignorant American. And then I started traveling - and moved abroad. And I realized, ''Hey - there are a LOT of great places to live in this world!! America isn''t the center of the universe!'' I''ve become much more accepting of the way that other people do things, because I''ve seen that not only do they work, but people are legitimately happy. I honestly could name no less than a dozen countries in which I would happily live - every single place has a delicate balance of pros and cons.

It is natural instinct to defend what is your''s and to think it''s not only acceptable, but great. Look at children from parents who are less than ideal...if given the option to stay with them or go to a really fantastic neighbor, surely 9 times out of 10 they''d choose to stay. You love what you know - and what you''ve been TOLD is great (thanksm convincing propaganda). Additionally, the United States has been *the* international superpower for decades now. It''s difficult for most Americans to even consider that that status may eventually slip, if it isn''t already.

I get sick to DEATH of Americans, honestly -- and I am one.

I get sick of them because their actions in the international community directly impact me, and more often than not, it''s in a negative way. I have defended America and Americans from so much trash talking and petty comments, it''s not even amusing any more. I loathe seeing really overweight, loud, rude, arrogant Americans ruining tourist experiences for other people (thankfully we don''t get too many in Australia because realistically, Americans who can afford to travel down here are usually well educated and socially aware). It makes me cringe, because I know that the people they interact with will log the experience in their minds -- and when they meet me and hear my accent, they''ll subconsciously paint me with the same brush.

So, yes, I also get tired of defending Americans and listening to idiotic anti-American dribble. But on the flip side of that, I also get tired of listening to my countrymen touting that it''s the ONLY place in the world to live. Many people in the world are blessed with their various homes. In fact, one of my coworkers is from India, then lived in Kenya, and when it came time to pick a forever home, her sister chose the US, her brother chose the UK, and she chose Australia. I think all three did pretty damn good.

Your entire post, especially the highlighted part was just asinine. Your assumption that people without a formal education or the funds to travel abroad are fat, and not socially aware is beyond ridiculous.
But hey, that''s acceptable right? Because after all, bashing Americans makes you sound well educated, well off, and socially aware.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/18/2009 8:10:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 12/18/2009 5:50:33 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade
Just a cultural insight from a Chinese person:

I think another reason in China for the ''stupid American'' stereotype is that compared to the Chinese school systems, the American ones are ''easy'' on students. They tend to think China is the more academically stringent country, and to a degree, they are correct in that the pressure and prestige related to doing well in school is extremely high there. There are relatively few colleges there compared to the US, and children start taking aptitude tests in middle school in order to apply to high schools. College applications are nationalized and basically consist of your test scores, and the competition is much more intense and rigorous than in the US. In China, you never really hear things like ''It''s ok, not everyone gets A''s'', it''s more like ''You will get A''s or your life will be miserable''.

I think the fact that America as a country doesn''t stress academic competition as much and most students can go to college if they want due to the number of community colleges, kind of gives some Chinese people the impression that as a country, America isn''t as ''smart''. Personally in my family, I''ve had cousins seek schooling in Canada and England because they wouldn''t have been able to get into a good enough college in China to be competitive in the job market after they graduated. And believe me when I say the academic competition and white collar job competition there is fierce. I attend an Ivy League medical school here in the US, so I''m no stranger to competition, but I think I would have suffered a nervous breakdown trying to make it into an elite institution in China.

The sad thing is, most Chinese people think the system works and produces the best and brightest. But personally, in comparing stories with my cousins who grew up there, it really seems just to stifle creativity and turn kids into cynical and bitter stress balls. I love that the American education system values more than just test scores. But that''s a different rant.

Anyways, just thought I''d add that in because honestly, although not everyone there thinks all Americans are dumb, there is a widespread belief in China that it''s easier to be ''dumb'' in America because you can still lead a comfortable life without a Harvard diploma.

And there''s definitely a jealousy component. The rights and opportunities we enjoy, the freedom we have to chase our own happiness, the social safety nets in case we stumble, it''s something to be envious about. I used to be angry that my cousins would belittle my accomplishment in school because ''oh, it''s so much easier in America'', but it''s hard to be mad at them knowing how tough it can be there.

Ditto!!

on everything that you said from this ''DUMB'' Chinese dude.

Yes, and the flip side of that is that China is probably quite frank that most people are going to BE poor and struggle, and they''re OK with a culture that extremely stratified. (You say that they apply for high school? I''m assuming that highschool is not required/guaranteed?) America is not quite like that. We were actually built on the idea of the AVERAGE person being able to live decently and with dignity. Of course the types of jobs that allowed that are now offshore, and the ones that allow that now, DO require a college degree, so our educational system is attempting to make average people - many of whom are not suited for collegiate style bookwork - into college grads. And we lie to ourselves that this is possible AND desirable, forgetting that someone still has to take out the trash.

And yes, the Chinese can be absolutely brutal on their children, even here. I know one family where mom decreed that one son would be a doctor and one son would be a lawyer, neither wanted to be either - one wanted to be an engineer as I recall - but both went down the path dictated by their parents. They have naturally been successful, but I''m sure the personal costs have been high. I saw an interesting show on PBS a few years ago about the topic of growing up Chinese in America, and one 1st generation interviewee made the point that many Chinese families here, when they get together, don''t compare the state of their businesses, or their own job successes, but play one-upsmanship games using their kids: My kid is going to PRINCETON. Yeah, well MY kid is going full ride to HARVARD. No pressure there for the kids, right?

And for the record, I do know a bit about the interior dynamics of Chinese families - I have 3 cousins who are half-Chinese, half-American. I think it was a good blend, as my family is big on education in their own right - lots of masters and PhDs in engineering, law, and education - but with the American view that you still need to end up doing something YOU like. Happy, successful, smart cousins all...

 

[ksinger]

Date: 12/20/2009 9:32:37 AM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 12/20/2009 6:31:53 AM
Author: justginger
I think I used to be an arrogant, ignorant American. And then I started traveling - and moved abroad. And I realized, ''Hey - there are a LOT of great places to live in this world!! America isn''t the center of the universe!'' I''ve become much more accepting of the way that other people do things, because I''ve seen that not only do they work, but people are legitimately happy. I honestly could name no less than a dozen countries in which I would happily live - every single place has a delicate balance of pros and cons.

It is natural instinct to defend what is your''s and to think it''s not only acceptable, but great. Look at children from parents who are less than ideal...if given the option to stay with them or go to a really fantastic neighbor, surely 9 times out of 10 they''d choose to stay. You love what you know - and what you''ve been TOLD is great (thanksm convincing propaganda). Additionally, the United States has been *the* international superpower for decades now. It''s difficult for most Americans to even consider that that status may eventually slip, if it isn''t already.

I get sick to DEATH of Americans, honestly -- and I am one.

I get sick of them because their actions in the international community directly impact me, and more often than not, it''s in a negative way. I have defended America and Americans from so much trash talking and petty comments, it''s not even amusing any more. I loathe seeing really overweight, loud, rude, arrogant Americans ruining tourist experiences for other people (thankfully we don''t get too many in Australia because realistically, Americans who can afford to travel down here are usually well educated and socially aware). It makes me cringe, because I know that the people they interact with will log the experience in their minds -- and when they meet me and hear my accent, they''ll subconsciously paint me with the same brush.

So, yes, I also get tired of defending Americans and listening to idiotic anti-American dribble. But on the flip side of that, I also get tired of listening to my countrymen touting that it''s the ONLY place in the world to live. Many people in the world are blessed with their various homes. In fact, one of my coworkers is from India, then lived in Kenya, and when it came time to pick a forever home, her sister chose the US, her brother chose the UK, and she chose Australia. I think all three did pretty damn good.

Your entire post, especially the highlighted part was just asinine. Your assumption that people without a formal education or the funds to travel abroad are fat, and not socially aware is beyond ridiculous.
But hey, that''s acceptable right? Because after all, bashing Americans makes you sound well educated, well off, and socially aware.

Sadly, stereotypes are so persistent because there is a kernal of truth in them. They are never completely or even mostly true, but true enough to be useful when humans go tribal, and they live in everyone''s head, whether they admit it or not, like it or loathe it. Tribal associations are in our genes. Identifying or not, with a group, is so deeply a part of being human, we''re never going to eradicate it completely.

 

[Haven]

I find it amusing that Phoenix started what is essentially a *vent* thread about the persistent anti-American comments that she has to endure, and it has now devolved into a "Well, Americans *might* deserve to be slighted because they are/do/behave/XYZ . . . "

If you belong to a different culture and you find Americans to be rude, obnoxious, and irritating, that's fine. I understand that as humans we have a need to identify and classify others, and I also understand that it's likely that most of us have witnessed a rude/obnoxious/irritating American at some point in our lives. There are a lot of Americans, and many of us enjoy foreign travel, so we're out there, mingling. I imagine that there *are* a lot of rude Americans out there, just as I imagine that you will find a representative group of rude people from any culture. I get it.

However, I find this thread to be less revealing of Americans' stupidity and rudeness as it is of the strong intolerance of many on this board. It's actually extremely discouraging and I'm a bit gobsmacked that so many are eager to post such revealing responses.

 

[CJ2008]

Date: 12/19/2009 6:05:02 PM
Author: steph72276
I think people that make huge blanket generalizations are the stupid ones. In a country of millions from different backgrounds/races/cultures there are going to be all kinds of people...ignorant, rude, brilliant, kind, etc.

I couldn't agree more.

Let's not forget that a lot of the things we find "rude" is just a different culture's way of doing things. So unless we are willing to understand where the differences might come from, it's ignorant to make generalizations about any one particular group of people.

 

[swimmer]

Yes, every nation and country has wonderful people and a few bad apples.

The convo here most interesting to me is the difference between Chinese and American educational goals. I''ve taught in both countries and have even occasionally been paid by the PRC'' Ministry of Education to teach Chinese teachers how to "teach in a more western-style." The Chinese govt realizes that their educational system is great at churning out millions of number-crunchers and memorizers of data; skills that can easily be replicated with a computer or even a decent calculator. However, it is in the PRC''s best interest to not create a generation of critical-thinkers. Those kids would rise up against their oppressive govt within two decades if encouraged to question everything around them in the fashion of US schools.

Generally speaking, Chinese students are not encouraged to think abstractly, to identify patterns of change, or to hypothesize future outcomes; most teaching is done through rote memorization over application of skills. I see the end result of this in the vast vast majority of my Chinese grad students in the US and in working with teachers in China; in general, these young Chinese are great at formula application, but really struggle to come up with questions, and simply cannot grasp the idea that their opinions are valuable. Getting Chinese teachers to journal on their own thoughts and reflections is almost impossible. Quoting respected theorists or even Mao is the norm. They are proof that memorizing lists of verb conjugations does not mean that you can communicate in a language, but since that is what the tests are based upon...that is what success is defined as. Then again, there is a lot to be said for developing a strong memory.

Of course, on the flip side, continuing in terms of generalizations, American students seem overly-invested in sharing their opinions even if they are based on zero facts or research. American students are not rewarded for memorizing lists of facts and critical thinking skills are encouraged (other than by our recent faddish embracing of standardized tests that measure rote memorization only). If you want a worker who can problem-solve and think "outside the box" you want one who has learned critical thinking skills and knows how to communicate effectively. In theory, this is what most American schools focus upon. In practice, the focus upon self-esteem can be taken too far with students expecting praise for having done nothing and many US parents who want to protect their children from any possible negative consequences.

Ultimately of course, these differences are cultural and are rooted far deeper than the classroom. A Superintendent in the US recently asked me how Chinese teacher can manage 60 kids in one classroom when American classrooms can only hold 30 max. He insisted that Chinese teachers must be better at their jobs based upon this observation. I understand these differences emerge not from schools, but rather from familial and cultural expectations of behavior. Chinese families do not permit high school aged daughters to even think about dating. The sadly common refrain of many US parents who say "what can I do with my teenager, I can''t control him!" would be shunned in China. Teachers each assign 3 hours of homework a night and Chinese parents do not complain. Teachers are admired and seen as authority figures in China. In the US, there is a homework free movement and teachers are barely paid. In China, extra-curricular activities are practicing English (English Corner) and test-prep, not cheerleading, football, or what-have-you. All important, but not necessarily going to help on the SATs. These differences are not for better or worse, they are simply differences, and they are marked.

Interestingly enough, my research department at a major university is composed mostly of pairs of American women and Chinese men, working to formulate questions and design research methods/data sets together. I design questions, formulate hypotheses, and my partner controls the matrices of data. Sort of like our strengths complement each other and make up for one anothers'' weaknesses. But that is just a thought there. I would love to hear from others who have experience with this sort of international collaboration where strengths and weaknesses are used to complement one another.

(could I have written "generally" enough? Yes, there are some exceptions to the norm, and of course someone is going to bring up that person; I am just speaking to the hundreds of Chinese and American teachers and the thousands of US and Chinese students that I have worked with in school settings.)

 

[4ever]

I''m not going to lie, I''ve noticed quite a bit of really negitive comments towords Americans, especially in the last 5 years or so. Things like Americans are stupid or "I hate America".

To an extent I understand where this comes from. As a small country with comparitivly very little influence, the amount of political power and influence America has is very frustrating. Your leaders are able to make choices and desisions that effect many other people globally that we can not. No one likes to feel powerless and not in control of their own futures. When a big desision is made that we don''t agree with or do not belive is in our, or other contries interests, it is probably going to be seen as a "stupid" desision.

Also, American culture is proving to be so dominating. The large amount of quality film, television and music produced in America has proven popular the world over, to a point where in smaller countires, like New Zealand, a good 60% of our television programs are American and les then 30% are made in New Zealand and express our NZ identity and culture. Large American couperations and brands like Coke have also spread their products, their brand and the assosiated American culture all over the world. This global Americanisation is changing the culture of people the world over to a more Americanised culture. Also, not in our control.

I understand when people say that Americans are stupid or they hate them, they don''t mean they hate every single individual American and assume they are all stupid, I would actually expect that any Americans that come to NZ would be treated as individuals and with kindness and respect. I think the reasons for these comments come from an unhappyness with American influence and global actions.

 

[lucyandroger]

justginger, How do you differentiate between Americans making generalizations about other countries and cultures, which you see as bad, and your generalizations about Americans who may have less formal education, are less well-off financially, or may be overweight, which you seem to think is appropriate?

Do you think it is okay to discriminate/ pre-judge people based on socio-economic status, formal education level, and weight?

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 12/20/2009 2:40:16 PM



Let''s not forget that a lot of the things we find ''rude'' is just a different culture''s way of doing things. So unless we are willing to understand where the differences might come from, it''s ignorant to make generalizations about any one particular group of people.

Ditto everything said here.

Also, generalization and criticizing another "group" is the human norm and is happening everyday and everywhere (within the homogeneous group). The problem of such discussion on PS is that we are such a heterogeneous group that even if you suggest a slight hint of negativity towards another group, some are going to be offended. I suggest we leave the discussion on the philosophical level rather than using literal examples to maintain the holiday cheers.

I am curious however... Phoenix, since you brought up the vent, what is your nationality? and what are the locals from your home country think of Americans?

 

[CDNinNYC]

As a non-American living in the US, one thing I've surprisingly encountered are slight/disparaging remarks against America by Americans. There have been a few social situations where I meet someone new and once they find out where I'm from, they proceed to make either non-flattering or apologetic comments about the US. I can only assume they think we think negatively of them and want to apologize for our 'impression'. It's embarrassing to hear strangers say such things about their country and I always end up having these awkward conversations where I'm defending the the US to Americans.

Anyone else experience something like this?

 

[justginger]

elle, your response to my post was just ridiculous -- over the last 4 years I''ve spent HOURS defending Americans to the international community. And doing so in a well spoken, factual manner - not going off half-cocked or just claiming that America is the greatest country in the world, because we say so. Along the way, I have developed the ability to see the shortcomings of the States, just like I can clearly see the shortcomings of my new home. I''m ok with that - I think pretending like any country is a utopia is a waste of time. And why would bashing Americans -- WHEN I AM ONE -- make me look good?

I think you misinterpreted my post. I did not intend to link weight to any other factors - education, social awareness, financial status, etc. Weight is a completely independent factor in life, though I do find it difficult to defend the statistically large size of many Americans. It''s difficult to convince people abroad to give you respect, when you don''t respect yourself enough to give yourself a healthy life.

As for the dig about education in my post, I was not alluding to formal education -- I meant education in general, whether it is formal or self taught. I think education is critical to being socially aware. Those who are ignorant are terrible representations of any country. Thankfully, many self-chosen idiots do not find the means to travel great distances, though you certainly get the exceptions. And yes, I do judge people on the basis that they wish to remain uninformed about the world at large, or if they make disparaging remarks about the culture of a country they choose to visit, or if they treat waitstaff like personal laborers, etc. That is what I am judging against when I see Americans behaving badly -- just as I do when I see very similar Australians in Bali, lording over the locals.

So feel free to judge me in return, but I feel very comfortable with my place in the world. I come from a fantastic country, and I live in a new fantastic country. Like I said, there are many blessed individuals who are in all of the first world countries around the globe.

 

[swimmer]

I was telling DH about this thread and he reminded me of two different events that we encountered in Ireland. A few years ago, we were with 60 of my students in a pub somewhere along the Ring of Kerry; the cutest little freckled Irish kid, probably 9ish? ran over to us and shrieked "f*** George Bush!" We were in shock, stopped eating our stew, and the American students discussed chasing after him to explain that we are from Boston and not big Bush fans either. They wondered where the hatred came from and kept tuned into the BBC and local news for the rest of the trip.

On our last trip there this past summer we were again in a pub, different students, watching a step dancing performance, one Irish dancer was wearing a "Yes We Can" Obama shirt, and near the end of the impromptu show the singer asked "our American friends" to join in the singing and dancing. Throughout our trip Irish people stopped my students several times to congratulate them on our new president and his positions on the environment, peace, etc. So perhaps some of the hatred towards Americans will now diminish?

And yes, Ksinger, (ha, I hear your DH in your response!) Probably already told you this, but I once had a US student of mine ask while we were in a Chinese school, where the special ed students were. After I got the teacher to understand what was meant, a girl with burns on her face was pointed out. For students with learning or physical disabilities in China, high school is not a possibility. They have greater opportunities for manual labor, but no chance for differing abilities in most of the developing world. The resources are too scant for these govts to pursue a "no child left behind" type of policy. Which of course is deeply flawed in practice, but compelling in theory.

 

[elle_chris]

Ginger- In your initial post, each time you mention defending America, it''s followed by stereotyping the same group. Using words like "arrogant and ignorant", followed by "I get sick to death of Americans", then went on to say "I loathe seeing really overweight, loud, rude, arrogant Americans ruining tourist experiences for other people (thankfully we don''t get too many in Australia because realistically, Americans who can afford to travel down here are usually well educated and socially aware"
I dunno but that doesn''t sound like defending to me, no matter what the context. Then again, I''m not asking you to defend it. Just asking you to understand that what you wrote comes off as bashing.