I had an I diamond appraised today, and was told that it was a K.

[Harriet]

Toby refused to recommend another vendor to us. Btw, David graded it blind.

 

[ljmorgan]

Good luck with the new appraisal, maybe his masters were off a bit? I have an AGS stone that was appraised dead on by Martin Fuller without seeing the cert first. It''s my understanding that AGS has the most stringent grading guidelines, and that AGS stones on average appraise the best (compared to their cert) out of AGS, GIA, EGL, etc.

 

[kenny]

Harriet wrote, "The appraiser had it next to an I, and it was yellower."

What was the size of that other stone?

A 3-carat I will look more yellow than a 1-carat I because in the 3-carat you are looking through more material.

Also how do you know that other stone was not off and yours was correct?

 

[Harriet]

That''s why Wolf was surprised -- I think his masters were new, and he thinks AGS is the most stringent of the labs.

 

[SKR]

Date: 12/28/2006 5:47:50 PM
Author: Harriet
Toby refused to recommend another vendor to us. Btw, David graded it blind.

Exactly, so the negative comments about them seem unjustified. They graded based on what they could see.

I would be surprised if both of them got it wrong by two grades.

If Brian at WF has also graded it, then it makes the whole situation very confusing and maybe another opinion from the like of Dave Atlas is justified. Brian's opinion is worth its weight in gold - despite being a vendor he says it like he sees it and I trust his view also. Somewhat baffling.

 

[Harriet]

The master was smaller. Look, I''m not ruling out the possibility that my appraiser was himself mistaken. I''m merely shocked at the discrepancy.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:01:32 PM
Author: SKR

Date: 12/28/2006 5:47:50 PM
Author: Harriet
Toby refused to recommend another vendor to us. Btw, David graded it blind.

Exactly, so the negative comments about them seem unjustified. They graded based on what they could see.

I would be surprised if both of them got it wrong by two grades.

If Brian at WF has also graded it, then it makes the whole situation very confusing and maybe another opinion from the like of Dave Atlas is justified. Brian''s opinion is worth its weight on gold - despite being a vendor he says it like he sees it and I trust his view also. Somewhat baffling.

Unfortunately, Brian''s out of the office these couple of days.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:00:34 PM
Author: Harriet
That''s why Wolf was surprised -- I think his masters were new, and he thinks AGS is the most stringent of the labs.

are his masters diamonds or cz''s?

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:02:10 PM
Author: Harriet
The master was smaller. Look, I''m not ruling out the possibility that my appraiser was himself mistaken. I''m merely shocked at the discrepancy.

I would be shocked too. I think this is definitely a case when another opinion is called for and justified. I''m sure WF will work with you though and extend the return period if the grading proves to be off.

 

[kenny]

Harriet wrote, "The master was smaller. Look, I'm not ruling out the possibility that my appraiser was himself mistaken. I'm merely shocked at the discrepancy."


There may be no discrepancy if the masters were smaller.

IF you line up 10 diamonds all with the color I from 1 to 10 carats you will see more color as the stone gets larger.
That is how it is supposed to be.
More material, more color.

I'm sure that appraiser must know this, and have some way to compensate for size.
But for you to say it was next to an I and it was yellower means nothing if that other stone was smaller.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:10:03 PM
Author: kenny
Harriet wrote, ''The master was smaller. Look, I''m not ruling out the possibility that my appraiser was himself mistaken. I''m merely shocked at the discrepancy.''


There may be no discrepancy if the maters were smaller.

IF you line up 10 diamonds all with the color I from 1 to 10 carats you will see more color as the stone gets larger.
That is how it is supposed to be.
More material, more color.

I''m sure that appraiser must know this, and have some way to compensate for size.
But for you to say it was next to an I and it was yellower means nothing if that other stone was smaller.

I have no pretensions to expertise. As you point out, the appraiser must compensate for size. Thus, the shocking discrepancy still holds.

 

[SKR]

I would be surprised if two appraisers got it so wrong but I guess these things can happen - I mean diamond grading is not an exact science is it? Regardless, even if they did get it wrong, it doesnt mean their integrity is in question. They probably realised the crap would hit the fan as soon as they graded it two off the report but stuck to their opinion.

Did Toby also think it was a K ?

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:18:05 PM
Author: SKR
I would be surprised if two appraisers got it so wrong but I guess these things can happen - I mean diamond grading is not an exact science is it? Regardless, even if they did get it wrong, it doesnt mean their integrity is in question. They probably realised the crap would hit the fan as soon as they graded it two off the report but stuck to their opinion.

Did Toby also think it was a K ?

Unequivocally

 

[JohnQuixote]

Harriet is understandably upset. We are concerned on her behalf and will stand behind her 100%.

We offered to send the diamond for another opinion at our expense because of the inconvenience Harriet has already experienced.Even if Harriet were to decide against this diamond we want outside eyes on it for our own record.

There are two possible outcomes:

1. The first appraiser was having a bad day and the stone is an I.If Harriet wants to keep it we have encumbered all costs associated with her inconvenience.

2. The diamond was graded incorrectly by AGS.If so, we stand ready to do whatever Harriet wishes; send it back to AGS for re-grading, help her locate another, adjust the price accordingly or issue a refund.

In the big picture the nice thing about the AGS/GIA is that such discrepancies are rare. In fact, appraisers of premium diamonds often note apparent color and clarity higher than the lab grade. But right now we're concerned with Harriet's picture: The bottom line is that grading decisions are subjective ones, made by human beings.Mistakes can be made, either at the lab or by another professional.

Regardless, we will stand behind our customer.

 

[SKR]

Get it apprasied by David Atlas and speak to Brian when he gets back. Brian is totally solid. Also in terms of H&As, I think WF are one of the best vendors around. It sounds like, regardless of DA's view, you will now always think about the other appraisal. Have you considered getting the other I stone that's on WF's website? I have been nudging a friend of mine, who is also looking for a round diamond to speak to WF about this very stone.

 

[kenny]

John Pollard wrote, " In fact, appraisers of premium diamonds often note apparent color and clarity higher than the lab grade."

Premium meaning well-cut or large?

If the latter might it be because no appraiser can be expected to have master sets of diamonds of 1-carat, 2-carat, 3-carat, 4-carat and so on?

If they don't have a stone of a similar size to compare it to they have to imagine how much more yellow a that master stone would be if it were larger? Or how do they determine color of larger stones? Do they all use lab equipment?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 12/28/2006 5:35:21 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 12/28/2006 5:33:18 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/28/2006 5:27:05 PM
Author: Harriet
Is it possible AGS is mistaken?

possible but not likely..Brian also graded the stone he wouldn''t put his name on it if he didn''t think it was right.
spectral2000 results are nice in these cases because it backs up the appraiser.

Then it sounds like to me she needs to use an appraiser with the machine.

This may be the rub. Dave has imagem, but it doesn''t have the history, I can''t conceive, of the spectra2000.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:21:03 PM
Author: JohnQuixote


We offered to send the diamond for another opinion at our expense because of the inconvenience Harriet has already experienced.Even if Harriet were to decide against this diamond we want outside eyes on it for our own record.

just to be 100% clear its kewl your(wf) paying for it and there is nothing im my mind bad about ya all over it, but if the report is for her she needs to be the client.
i think you agree?
I dont know the wording of the specific offer im just commenting on how I think the proper way to pay for it is with her as the client of record for the appraisal.
that protects everyone even if its not needed it looks better.

I think everyone knows your trying to do the right thing here :}

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:21:03 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Harriet is understandably upset. We are concerned on her behalf and will stand behind her 100%.

We offered to send the diamond for another opinion at our expense because of the inconvenience Harriet has already experienced.Even if Harriet were to decide against this diamond we want outside eyes on it for our own record.

There are two possible outcomes:

1. The first appraiser was having a bad day and the stone is an I.If Harriet wants to keep it we have encumbered all costs associated with her inconvenience.

2. The diamond was graded incorrectly by AGS.If so, we stand ready to do whatever Harriet wishes; send it back to AGS for re-grading, help her locate another, adjust the price accordingly or issue a refund.

In the big picture the nice thing about the AGS/GIA is that such discrepancies are rare. In fact, appraisers of premium diamonds often note apparent color and clarity higher than the lab grade. But right now we''re concerned with Harriet''s picture: The bottom line is that grading decisions are subjective ones, made by human beings.Mistakes can be made, either at the lab or by another professional.

Regardless, we will stand behind our customer.

John,

Thank you for your response. As I have maintained, Whiteflash, through Katie, is acting appropriately. That said, my earlier encounter with one of your colleagues was extremely disappointing, and I hope it has been described to you. Separately, is it possible for the stone to be graded by GIA? I am sufficiently satisfied with both the stone and your company that I want to work with you to come to a fair resolution.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/28/2006 6:26:22 PM
Author: SKR
Get it apprasied by David Atlas and speak to Brian when he gets back. Brian is totally solid. Also in terms of H&As, I think WF are one of the best vendors around. It sounds like, regardless of DA''s view, you will now always think about the other appraisal. Have you considered getting the other I stone that''s on WF''s website? I have been nudging a friend of mine, who is also looking for a round diamond to speak to WF about this very stone.

WF says the other stone looks just like the one in question.

 

[oldminer]

If this diamond ends up coming to us for another look at the color we will use official GIA diamond master stones along with CZ''s we have calibrated with larger diamonds. Also, we own an SAS2000 Spectrophotometer which does color grading as well as any device available commercially today. I have immediate access to ImaGem equipment to get exacting CIE color coordinates, but while technically interesting, the color system used in the trade and in labs remains visual and subjective.

I have no axe to grind so we''ll give an expert opinion and the customer can take any action they deem correct. It seems WF is acting in good faith and we will, too. I am very concerned for the integrity of the diamond business and take these matters most seriously.

 

[Harriet]

David,

According to Whiteflash, the stone is on its way to you. Thank you for your reassurance. I hope you will help resolve the issue.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

That is fabulous to know that David has the color device!!!

Please let us know what happens, Harriet. I just hope it all works out for you to get a diamond you LOVE!

 

[Harriet]

Thanks. It''s been a long search, and it was distressing to hear what today''s appraisers had to say.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/28/2006 7:16:40 PM
Author: oldminer
If this diamond ends up coming to us for another look at the color we will use official GIA diamond master stones along with CZ''s we have calibrated with larger diamonds. Also, we own an SAS2000 Spectrophotometer which does color grading as well as any device available commercially today. I have immediate access to ImaGem equipment to get exacting CIE color coordinates, but while technically interesting, the color system used in the trade and in labs remains visual and subjective.

I have no axe to grind so we''ll give an expert opinion and the customer can take any action they deem correct. It seems WF is acting in good faith and we will, too. I am very concerned for the integrity of the diamond business and take these matters most seriously.

kewl that you have the sas too :}
Im confident in you.
I hope it wasnt taken as i didnt trust you, I was just concerned about appearances and wording.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 12/28/2006 8:11:10 PM
Author: Harriet
Thanks. It''s been a long search, and it was distressing to hear what today''s appraisers had to say.

harriet, I can only imagine what your feeling. I bought an AGS stone too and would be just as shocked if my independant appraiser said it was 2 grades lower than I thought. I do hope you can find some peace of mind in knowing your stone is going to a highly respected person who will do right by you and that WF will do their best to make sure you are compensated financially if need be. For your sake, I really do hope the AGS grade is correct and you can keep your stone and find it a lovely setting (if you haven''t found a setting already). Please let us know what you find out

 

[starryeyed]

Date: 12/28/2006 5:35:50 PM
Author: Harriet
The appraiser had it next to an I, and it was yellower.

Hi Harriet. Did you happen to see the survey done by PS regarding labs and pricing? This section may answer some of your questions about AGS: Color & Clarity. I''m not sure that enough diamonds were sampled to draw a solid conclusion, but it seems the trend is for AGS to be a little less strict than GIA on color.

I remember reading on one thread that Garry H does not stock anything less than H in larger diamonds. That 3-carat GOG diamond that''s a "G" may be a better bet for you.

Do you see the color? Does it bother you? Personally I think it''s better to get a smaller stone that is whiter. People always tend to make the comments under their breath like, "So it was big, but did you see how yellow it was??" I''d prefer to have something 3-carats in the F-G range (GIA) rather than larger and yellower. That''s just me though.

 

[Beacon]

This is a really interesting case! After David Atlas looks at it there will be much more information. If it were me, unless the first appraisal was an absolute fluke, I would say send it back to AGS and get them to explain it. GIA grading is certainly a viable option too.

K stones are generally quite tinted, especially in such a big carat weight. I am surprised AGS could mess it up. If the stone still looks like a K to David, well, I think AGS has some ''plainin'' to do!

Did the stone match the cert in all other respects, e.g. carat weight, inclusion map?

 

[ellchris]

Regarding "Just Appraisers", I used them over the summer to have two pieces appraised (worked with Toby) and I have to say that they''re very professional.
They don''t buy or sell diamonds and they don''t refer clients to vendors. Toby went out of his way to get the correct dollar value for my wedding ring which
meant actually going to the ONE store in manhattan that carried the line.
I have nothing but good things to say about them and would trust their opinion.
Very sorry to hear what happened Harriet. It will be interesting to see what Dave Atlas says though.

elle

 

[alamb]

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-vs-appraiser-what-do-you-think.14886/=

It looks like this issue has come up before with David.