How do you really know if the melee is high quality?

[TLS]

When dealing with very small stones used for bands etc. - how do you really know what quality you are getting? no one runs sarins on stones this small. If you don''t have a personal relationship with the jewelry store providing these what kind of questions do you ask to ensure that the melee is high quality?

For example, I can ask for excellent or ideal cut, but every has their own "version" of both of these, so how do you really know what you are getting?

Also, I am not really sure "ideal" is necessary for melee and wonder if "very good" will be sufficient. Would "very good" cut melee look ok next to an "ideal" cut diamond?

what specifics should I be asking for?

 

[denverappraiser]

TL1,

Become involved in the process of selecting which stones will be used in your ring. Bring your Idealscope.

Most jewelers will buy melee in packages of several stones ranging from a few to hundreds. The manufacturers assemble these parcels based on stones of similar quality and size. Higher quality equals higher price, of course. That's why they do it. Tell your jeweler that you would like to be extremely picky and have them show you their highest quality parcel of the appropriate size. Sit down with them and individually pick out the stones that you want to use.

Neil Beaty
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

We are frequently asked to sort through a group of small diamonds to eliminate any that don't reach the standards proposed in an estimate. We first select out any that don't meet the required color. Then we check for UV fluorescence to be sure there are none that would really mismatch in bright sunlight. After that we go over the clarity to see if all meet the required grade. By this time we have looked a couple times at all the stones. One more check, with a loupe and Ideal-Scope, does the main job of being sure they meet high performance or Ideal standards.

That's how it is accomplished. I have not seen any melee cut to anything but near Tolkowsky standards being sold as "ideal". Possibly, in the near future, we will see some variation with high performance yet some different cutting parameters than one might expect. We'll certainly be ready for it when and if it occurs. I think right now no consumer is looking for anything but a very high quality standard cut in small round diamonds when they are willing to pay for "ideal" makes.

 

[jackson]

How hard is it to replace one of those little stones? when I had my appraisal it was pointed out to me that one of the stones was a lower color...it was easy to see under 10x...and now i notice it all the time in natural light settings!

 

[Mara]

I also agree on using the IdealScope to determine what types of melee suffice for your standards....excellent light return should tell whatever you want to know!

 

[denverappraiser]

jackson,

This depends on the design of the ring. Usually it''s not all that hard. Occationally the easiest way to do this is to simply destroy the offending stone in order to avoid damage to the mounting but this will depend on the size and price of the stone in question. A capable jeweler should have little trouble doing this.

Neil Beaty
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[TLS]

thanks everyone, but what about settings that are pre-made. A few that I am looking at aren''t custom. should the jeweler always be able to tell you what the quality are for the diamonds being used. Lately I have been given info on color and clarity and as far as cut goes, I am hearing "very good" and I am skeptical of those words...

I also am confused about using the idealscope because i find the colors vary so much depending on the angle that I hold the stone and how close I hold my stone to the bottom of the scope.

For example, when I hold my ideal stone beneath the scope I generally get a lot of very dark pink, most people refer to this as "red". Maybe I am a bit particular about my colors but i still refer to this as dark pink, not red, but I think i am seeing the color I should be... however, I notice there is one little "facet" that shines back white if i hold it just the right way and i am wondering what this is? i strongly doubt it could be severe leakage in one little spot since my specs were very good on the stone. it almost looks like a reflection, then it goes away if i change angles.

 

[jackson]

are you using scope on set or unset stone....?

 

[jackson]

Thanks, Denver Appraisor.....I hinted at this, now I have to come right out and ask.....hate to be a pain!

 

[qtiekiki]

Date: 12/27/2004 1:26:12 PM
Author: jackson
How hard is it to replace one of those little stones? when I had my appraisal it was pointed out to me that one of the stones was a lower color...it was easy to see under 10x...and now i notice it all the time in natural light settings!

I don''t think it''s that hard to replace one of the stones because one of the pave in my ering band was missing and my FI''s jeweler was able to replace the missing pave in less than an hour while my FI was watching.

 

[TLS]

actually i was using the ideal scope for a diamond that was in one of those temporary holders. It''s not really a real setting, but it just holds the diamond. it does have 4 prongs.

 

[mdx]

Date: 12/27/2004 1:22:48 PM
Author: oldminer
We are frequently asked to sort through a group of small diamonds to eliminate any that don''t reach the standards proposed in an estimate. We first select out any that don''t meet the required color. Then we check for UV fluorescence to be sure there are none that would really mismatch in bright sunlight. After that we go over the clarity to see if all meet the required grade. By this time we have looked a couple times at all the stones. One more check, with a loupe and Ideal-Scope, does the main job of being sure they meet high performance or Ideal standards.

That''s how it is accomplished. I have not seen any melee cut to anything but near Tolkowsky standards being sold as ''ideal''. Possibly, in the near future, we will see some variation with high performance yet some different cutting parameters than one might expect. We''ll certainly be ready for it when and if it occurs. I think right now no consumer is looking for anything but a very high quality standard cut in small round diamonds when they are willing to pay for ''ideal'' makes.

Hi Dave
Maybe slightly off topic but I think you may find this interesting.
We just received sample parcel of collection colors 0.20crt Ideal Cut with H&A from a sight holder. What’s interesting is they where cut in new factory in China with a new type of fully automatic machine. They grade them as triple excellent, which is excellent polish symmetry and cut. I ran a few on the Sarin and was amazed at the repeatability of the facet angles. All within 1% deviation.
When I get back to the office after the holidays I will post a few Ideal Scope images and Sarin scans
Johan

 

[Kamuelamom]

What does one do if they do not have the luxury of seeing the stones in person, such as in the case of buying them online (ie, Whiteflash)? Does it come down to working with someone trustworthy who can choose them for you?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/27/2004 4:36:40 PM
Author: Kamuelamom

Does it come down to working with someone trustworthy who can choose them for you?

... and the return policy, right

 

[twilight]

TL1. There are high quality mele out there but for most jewelers the cost is prohibitive for the price point they want to reach. Today most mele diamonds are polished from india which has become very specialized and good at cutting round brilliants. India''s cutting is based on a low manufacturing cost, high volume business model. Mele of Russian make is the gold standard in the industry though but extremely few people are willing to pay the 20-40% cost difference between the two. When you are talking about mele of 1-2 pointers though there is basically a imperceptible difference between the two at that size. As long as the mele is of high color and purity I would not worry about any other factors.

 

[TLS]

ok sorry to dredge up this topic again....but i was checking with the vendor i want to work with and they basically told me that almost none of their designer rings use ideal melee....that it uncommon to find ideal melee being used in these non custom made rings. I think they had one designer that does use them so I am trying to find out more about that, but does that mean I will be paying through the nose most likely for the ideal melee even though we are talking about tiny diamonds here

So how am I going to know if I am getting good cut quality melee? should i settle for average melee being used? is most being used by the standard designer rings avg or very good?

this won''t be a custom made setting so i have no options with choosing the diamonds.

I want my band to sparkle as much as my center stone.... so are there any other questions i can ask or do i have to just test it with my eyes?

 

[Mara]

How big are these melee? If they are tiny aka .01-.03 carat or even maybe .05 you won't see a thing but absolute sparkle.

When I had my custom e-ring made, I asked our jeweler for well-cut melee. They said they used it, but who really knows, it's hard to use the IdealScope on them! I tried...it looked as though there was alot of light return but on stones that small it was tricky. My stones are .03 each.

When I had my wedding ring made from WhiteFlash, they used ACA H&A melee. Melee cost was probably a bit cheaper as what I paid for the e-ring melee and it was .02c sized. I can see the H&A in a picture they took but again the IS image is really hard to get with the tiny stones, even in the ACA ring.

To be REALLY honest, they both sparkle like the dickens. I love knowing that if I really tried hard I could see some H&A in the ACA melee but the bottom line is that its not as though one ring sparkles and the other looks dull.

From what I can tell, when they are that tiny, the cut doesn't matter as much, as long as you aren't talking horribly included yellow stones.

I would specify you want well-cut melee and leave it at that but if you really want to go the extra mile, you could see if WF would sell you the ACA melee for your setting. I have heard yes and no on that answer so I don't know if they do it for rings they don't create, but it's worth a try if you really want that ideal-cut guarantee on paper.

Good luck!

 

[TLS]

Mara thank you for responding, I think you have set my mind at ease that well cut melee will look very sparkly and nice, and that it is not completely necessary to have ideal cut. That is mostly what I wanted to make sure of - I will just need to keep my eyes open when viewing the settings in person I guess

.

I am honestly not really sure what size the melee is since the ones i have seen were online and they only provided the total ctw which was like .35 for the band I think, so I am guess we are talking tiny melee here. I am not real good at judging stones that size. I am looking at some of the precision set bands. the e-ring is almost eternity set, with a very small space in the back for sizing and the wedding band is completely eternity style i believe.

thanks again

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I have seen some pretty poorly matched diamonds on well branded rings and it just shows how important it is to have a good source and a skilled person to sort them. In your case it is hit and miss as you are not seeing a large range. Smaller stone in my experience are rarely graded well. I wish they were, but there are good reasons why they are not.

I think it plays an enormous difference, though it isn''t hard to get right.

I have never heard of any cut ratings in smaller stones.

If you have a parcel to choose through, then choose. Custom or not is not really an issue. Mores-the-point, the size of the company and accessabilty to the manufacturing process is. Having said that, you would be lucky to see a parcel and actually trust is the key. I have looked over many stones, but I would have nothing near the skills of an experienced gemologist

Oldminer, your type of service is invaluable to me. Today, I bought some 30pt''ers and I was absolutely chuffed because they were all H&A (at the same price as any other). They took the time to sort them for me. I had almost demanded I sort through a packet as I had promised my customer I would do, but they didn''t let me. There is just no way, I would have done their job as well as they did.

I used to use a dealer in the UK when buying 1-5pt''ers and they not only matched their diamonds perfectly, they calibrated the sizes perfectly too (very important for a setter - I don''t have to arrange them in order of size, or change drill bits each hole and drill different depths - tripling the time). You know what? They had two catogories - good and very good.

Back in Aus we have the 4c''s and I am dubious of that. It seems a little odd. However, through the ones who let me sort my own stones (who are cheap), I do very well.

I don''t know it will, but I hope this helps.

I wish I could say more, but I think it depends on where the parcel is from, what the ruff was and who did the sorting. I believe you could garnish an informed oppinion of a company by examples of their melee. It might be just one particularly fussy sorter and a good policy on diamond sourcing that makes all the difference. Branding not-dependant.

PS

 

[TLS]

thank you platinumsmith!


Can anyone recommend some designers that are known and have a reputation for using high quality melee since I am not going the custom route. I am looking at precision set right now.

thanks

 

[TLS]

just wondering if anyone could vouch for any particular designers with stock settings that are known to use high quality melee?

 

[SLH]

TL1,

Try Whiteflash. I have read that their melee is beautiful.

 

[fortheloveofdiamonds]

Michael B. it is not stock, but it is made to order...

 

[Mara]

TL see my response in the ''designer wedding sets'' thread...I think honestly with any top-notch designer who takes care to produce beautiful settings, they would use good quality melee. With a $2k setting chances are you are not going to get crappy stuff.