Hint of a window?

[stepcutgirl]

Hello all. I am going to be purchasing this sapphire for a bezel pendant necklace. It says in the description that it has a hint of a window. Should a bezel close this up? It''s going to be a very open bezel like a James Meyer style. Thanks.

 

[LD]

That actually has quite a big window. Bezel setting doesn't guarantee closing up a window. It will make a stone look darker sometimes. What you might need is to concentrate on the basket under the stone - this can help to close up a window on occasion but again isn't guaranteed.

 

[movie zombie]

have you actually seen the stone? if its a vendor description and a vendor picture, its going to be hard to assess the window situation.

mz

 

[stepcutgirl]

No, I have not seen the stone. I think it is going to go in an open bezel necklace or possibly (if it looks really nice in person) into a tiffany legacy type setting as a ring. Is a window very noticeable in person if it is a darker stone?

 

[LD]

The darker the gemstone, the more noticeable the window will be. So, for the sapphire you''ve posted above, what I think you''ll see is dark blue around the edges of the stone but then you''ll be able to see right through it in the middle to the skin underneath. An open bezel necklace isn''t likely to close the window and it will be very visible.

In a Legacy type ring, it might close depending on the basket. I had a very very badly windowed sapphire and set it in an LOGR setting and the window almost disappeared but if you look at the photos you''ll see that probably has a lot to do with the basket of the setting itself. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-to-make-a-window-disappear-in-logr-setting.107888/

 

[Michael_E]

A window is something which is apparent for two reasons. One, you can see through it just like a window and two, (probably the worst thing about them), they lack any reflectivity in the windowed area. This means that you can''t "close them up" since they will always show those two traits, regardless of setting style. Can you get a side view of this stone ? Windows are always in the center of the stone and they are always caused by the facets around the culet being too shallow to allow reflections back to you. If you can get a side view it will let you know if the stone is too shallow, or was cut deeply, but with a "belly" causing the facets around the culet to be too flat. If it''s cut deeply, the color is good and the price is right, it may be worth recutting to remove the window and improve the overall look of the stone. Prices for recutting only the pavilion are always less than an entire recut and with nearly as good and effect on its looks. In any case, I would always ask for a side view of the stone, as it gives a good idea of many of the properties of the stone which aren''t apparent from a top view.

 

[stepcutgirl]

Wow. That''s an amazing difference your setting made! I think i understand a little better. Thanks. I think I''m going to get the stone and see how bad it is. I really like the color of it. I can always return it if I see it can''t be closed. Of course I won''t have any idea so once I get it I will take my own pics and let you all tell me your thoughts.

 

[stepcutgirl]

Michael, here is a side view

 

[Michael_E]

Thanks stepcutgirl. That stone is the perfect shape for a minor recut that wouldn''t affect the face up size at all. You''d have two choices with a recut, one being to mimic the existing step cut pavilion with one which is steeper at the culet, the other would be to do a partial recut where the facets around the culet would be brilliant cut and just let the edge of the mains and points of the stars fall where ever they land on the existing pavilion break facets. Either style would work well, give better reflectivity in the center of the stone and not affect the color of the stone appreciably. That stone does have very nice color and it would be a great candidate for having a minor recut done on it.

 

[stepcutgirl]

Thanks Michael. That makes me feel a little better about it. While I don''t really understand the differences in the two types of recuts you speak of, I think I understand that they would keep the color but help the window?

Do you know who would do a re cut or if it''s a lot of money for one?

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 11/22/2009 11:50:10 AM
Author: stepcutgirl
Thanks Michael. That makes me feel a little better about it. While I don''t really understand the differences in the two types of recuts you speak of, I think I understand that they would keep the color but help the window?


Do you know who would do a re cut or if it''s a lot of money for one?

The differences in the types of recuts are pretty subtle, with the step cut style being more in keeping with how this stone looks now and so the style I''d suggest. As for cutters, there are a number of them who do this well. I think that there was a thread on this a while ago and I''ll let one of the other folks here chime in on this.

 

[LD]

SCG - can I offer a few more thoughts?

1. Are you absolutely 100% stuck on getting this particular Sapphire? The only reason I ask is that (a) it''s a hassle finding somebody to re-cut your stone and (b) there will be a cost involved and so that leads me to (c) why not put the extra money to finding a "perfect" stone in the first place??????

2. Certainly in the UK if somebody does a re-cut on your stone, you are not insured under their insurance if they break it. I don''t know what the policy is in the US but it''s worth checking. Ok, with an experienced benchman/lapidarist your stone should be safe but there''s always that horrible time when it''s not.

3. It is impossible to tell whether a window will close up unless you have stone and setting together. In 9/10 times, a window may lessen but won''t disappear and as Michael has said, the performance of the gemstone is always affected. The one I linked to above is nothing short of amazing in that I have too many window''ed stones than I should have(!) and this is the first one I''ve since virtually disappear. It''s not normally a gem I would ever think of setting.

4. The lighting in the Vendor''s picture is very bright indeed. Can you ask for a photo taken outside in normal daylight? If you''re going to go to the bother of buying a gemstone that you know has some issues, then please make sure that the Vendor''s lighting isn''t affecting the colour you''d see IRL.

 

[stepcutgirl]

I''m not absolutely stuck on this sapphire, but I do really like the color and I can afford it. I was paying this vendor for a quite expensive sapphire when I decided it was too much money to put into a stone that wasn''t for a very important piece like an engagement ring. Since i have been paying for so long the vendor suggested I look at his other sapphires for one I could afford for the amount I already had paid him. I found two I really liked but one had an off center cutlet that I thought would drive me nuts. I would really like a square or round stone and both in sapphires are hard to find. I quite like this color, shape and size and I can get it with only a few dollars more that what I have already put into this vendor.

So...that is why I''m looking into this one. It''s possible it may not need a recut. If I get it and I think i will like it in a particular setting with out the window being obvious...great. It depends on the amount of a recut too.

 

[chrono]

If you plan on an open bezel, I expect the window will not close up. The picture was taken at an angle to minimize the appearance of the window. I expect a medium sized window when viewed in person. With a recut, there are risks that you have to accept. In addition to the fee (which might be $200 or thereabouts depending on who is cutting it and how much fixing it needs), there is also the risk of damage where an unseen fracture will grow, in addition to the colour possibly being affected as well.

 

[PrecisionGem]

This window closing thing has me puzzled. Certainly nothing optically changes in the stone, so the window is still there. I think the effect may be that since in a typical ring, there is some metal underneath the stone, you are no longer looking right through the stone and either at white paper, or flesh, but rather seeing some shaped metal. This metal then appears to actually be facets in the stone?

So I would think that in a bezel setting for a pendant, you may not have anything behind the stone, and you would again be looking right through it and see your flesh. So the window wouldn''t really be closed at all.

I have never had a stone with a window mounted, so I''m only speaking from speculation.

 

[LD]

Date: 11/22/2009 6:36:59 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
This window closing thing has me puzzled. Certainly nothing optically changes in the stone, so the window is still there. I think the effect may be that since in a typical ring, there is some metal underneath the stone, you are no longer looking right through the stone and either at white paper, or flesh, but rather seeing some shaped metal. This metal then appears to actually be facets in the stone?

So I would think that in a bezel setting for a pendant, you may not have anything behind the stone, and you would again be looking right through it and see your flesh. So the window wouldn''t really be closed at all.

I have never had a stone with a window mounted, so I''m only speaking from speculation.

That''s exactly what happens but strangely it doesn''t happen to all gems with windows. I think it depends on the shape of the basket, the placement of the metal and how that relates to the facets on the gemstone. Most windows won''t disappear when set. Minimised perhaps but you''ll still be accutely aware of it.

 

[stepcutgirl]

I do understand about the window closing, that it doesn''t actually close but appears to no longer be there. I have decided to get the stone to see in person. If I really like the color and size in person I believe i will be getting just the underside recut. I have spoken to someone who does this type of recut and I''m willing to take the small risk of something bad happening if the stone is truly badly windowed and can be closed by a recut.

Thank you all for all your comments. I''m slowly learning.

 

[haagen_dazs]

those photos look familiar.. hmmm

 

[chrono]

Gene,
That is correct; the window is still there, however, the reflection of the metal around it gives the illusion of the window not being there, or at least lessened / less obvious.

 

[LD]

Date: 11/22/2009 7:40:35 PM
Author: stepcutgirl
I do understand about the window closing, that it doesn''t actually close but appears to no longer be there. I have decided to get the stone to see in person. If I really like the color and size in person I believe i will be getting just the underside recut. I have spoken to someone who does this type of recut and I''m willing to take the small risk of something bad happening if the stone is truly badly windowed and can be closed by a recut.

Thank you all for all your comments. I''m slowly learning.

No SCN. In MOST gemstones, the window will still appear to be there and you''ll continue to see it once set. It is most unusual for a window to close/disappear once the gemstone is set. The photos I posted above illustrate what might happen in, say, 1 out of 100 times. If you ask any collector what happens with a windowed stone once set, they''ll tell you that the window MAY get slightly smaller but nearly always there''s a patch in the middle of the gemstone that you can see straight through to the finger.

The reason I posted the photos of my horribly cut/windowed sapphire was because it virtually disappeared - something I''ve never ever seen before and I''ve been setting loose gemstones for many years.

Please don''t buy this thinking once it''s set it''ll no longer appear to have a window. If you have it re-cut there''s a good chance it will go away but I doubt it will without the recut.

 

[stepcutgirl]

Thanks LD. If this sapphire is more than just a teensy amount windowed (and I believe it will be decently windowed) then I am going to have it recut. I feel if it really is the color and size I want when it arrives it will be worth the recut. You have been very helpful with all this and I am glad allof you take the time to help those like me learn.