Help Me Understand - Price Diffs Store v. On-line

[Loves Vintage]

Maybe I''m a little slow to understand what is going on here, so please excuse me if my question seems too basic. We just got back from a nice, well respected local shop. Spent lots of time looking at Hearts on Fire diamonds, which I knew nothing about before entering the store. Loved a Hearts on Fire setting, but was not completely sold on the Hearts on Fire stones. One of the last diamonds they quoted us (not a Hearts on Fire) was:

1.01
E
VS2
Not an ideal cut, but has more characteristics of an ideal cut than the level just below. He said there are 10 or 12 different characteristics they look at in order to grade the cut, and if one of those elements do not meet the ideal cut grade, then the diamond cannot be classified as ideal. I did not ask for a certificate or for clarification on which characteristics kept the diamond out of the ideal cut classification.

$9,900 - which seemed like a bargain compared to the Hearts on Fire.

So, I immediately came to this site and did a search for a 1.01, E, VS2, and no stone is even near 9,900. The highest was around $6,500!!

So, please help me understand why such a huge difference in price?!?!?!? Is there a way I can tell on-line if a stone is an ideal cut?

 

[Sparkalicious]

Hi! I''m a newbie like you and by no means a professional or expert, however, with regards to your question about finding out if a diamond is ideal cut, my understanding is that you would have to have the information from the cert so that you could compare the specs of your diamond to those of what is considered to fall within the "ideal" range.

I found a great picture about what is ideal range somewhere and I have attached it for you so that you can take a look.

With regards to pricing, especially if the stone you have found is not ideal cut, the pricing does appear to be high considering what is available out there. At one store I looked at there was a 1.35 ideal cut E, SI1 diamond, EGL certified for $7,975.
With your stone being right around 1.00 carat as well, prices will tend to be a little bit more than if it is what off just a little, for example, 1.15 or something like that.

This is just my two cents from what I have learned snooping around the internet, during my numerous trips to the jewellry store etc. I hope this helps.

Good luck shopping!

 

[Loves Vintage]

Hi Sparkalicious,

Thanks for your response and for posting that nice ideal cut chart. You know what''s even more strange about the diamond I mentioned above, when he first showed it to me, he said it was priced at 11k (somewhere in the 11k range, I don''t recall), but that he had room to go down on the price of this particular stone. The 9,900 was actually marked on the tag below the 11k number. This is a very nice shop, a large store, in business for decades, very well regarded. Is that what I''m paying for? How are they selling this diamond for almost 10k, when anyone can get the same diamond for 6k on-line? This is not Tiffany''s, so it''s not like you''re paying for the box. I understand that there are overhead costs, etc. and something to be said for reputation, but not that much of a mark-up?!?! I''m so confused.

P.S. The setting that I fell in love with is a split-shank pave set . . . I just noticed that you had a similar setting picked out in your other post. Of course, I can''t have mine unless I get a Hearts on Fire diamond to put in the middle . . . .

 

[iheartscience]

B&M stores do have higher overhead costs, which accounts for some of the price difference between online and B&M diamonds. I think the rest of the price difference can be attributed to a lack of knowledge by consumers. They charge that much because they can!

Buy online! No amount of in store service is worth $3-4000 extra, in my opinion. If you want a Hearts on Fire setting, I''m pretty sure that you can buy the HoF settings separately from the center stone. I think someone on here did that recently.

Check out Whiteflash.com and GoodOldGold.com for great hearts and arrows stones at good prices. You won''t be sorry! You can get a 1.5 carat J/VS2 Whiteflash ACA Hearts and Arrows diamond for $9435! I don''t know if you''ve checked out the threads here much yet, but if you do a search for J colored stones you will be blown away. They face up very white and are a great value if you''re looking for a larger diamond for a great price. If you''d rather have a whiter stone over a larger stone, you can still get a 1.2ish carat WF ACA for around $6900!

Plus Whiteflash and GoodOldGold have great upgrade policies so you can get a bigger diamond or change shapes if you want to later on. Definitely spend some more time here, read up on diamond cut, and buy online!

 

[Sparkalicious]

I know ... I can''t have mine either yet.

You know what ... I have encountered the same difficulties. Trying to figure out who is scamming and who is not.
One place I was dealing with ... reputable as well but with lots of overhead due to location & advertisements/marketing ... advised they would knock $2,000 off the price of a diamond they had b/c I brought them the details on another one I had found!!! I didn''t like this at all because this action doesn''t seem to have much integrity so I decided to go elsewhere.

I LOVE split shank rings! I''m so glad to have found someone else who does as well. I have found that Simon G has quite a few to pick from ... I just love they way they look with a bridge with channel set diamonds. Do you have any pics of your desired setting?

 

[iheartscience]

I forgot to emphasize how important the cut of the diamond is. Don''t settle for "just below ideal." Get an ideal cut! Cut is more important than any of the other C''s. (Color, clarity, carat.) Your best bet is to look for an AGS certified ideal cut diamond that is graded 0 for light performance. Also use the Holloway Cut Adviser (located under the Tools link at the top of the page) to weed out stones.

 

[Sparkalicious]

If you are interested I have a jeweler I am dealing with in the Seattle area who has been great to deal with and who is able to offer designer settings at a a much lesser cost than standard B&M locations. They have graduate gemologists on staff and a master appraiser. They do deal online as well, if you are interested. Maybe they could provide you with some pricing comparisons?

 

[Loves Vintage]

This is my setting (I''d suggest turning the volume down):

http://www.heartsonfire.com/index.php?col=1#/us/en-us/diamond-collection/view-details.php?item_id=2884&item_name=Felicity%20Dream%20Split%20Shank%20Solitaire&style_name=FelDrmSpShR&type_id=1&type_name=Rings&subtype_id=1&subtype_name=Engagement%20Rings

It is very, very delicate looking in person.

 

[Sparkalicious]

What a lovely ring!

Thanks for sharing it with me!

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 11/23/2007 7:41:41 PM
Author: thing2of2
B&M stores do have higher overhead costs, which accounts for some of the price difference between online and B&M diamonds. I think the rest of the price difference can be attributed to a lack of knowledge by consumers. They charge that much because they can!


Buy online! No amount of in store service is worth $3-4000 extra, in my opinion. If you want a Hearts on Fire setting, I''m pretty sure that you can buy the HoF settings separately from the center stone. I think someone on here did that recently.


Check out Whiteflash.com and GoodOldGold.com for great hearts and arrows stones at good prices. You won''t be sorry! You can get a 1.5 carat J/VS2 Whiteflash ACA Hearts and Arrows diamond for $9435! I don''t know if you''ve checked out the threads here much yet, but if you do a search for J colored stones you will be blown away. They face up very white and are a great value if you''re looking for a larger diamond for a great price. If you''d rather have a whiter stone over a larger stone, you can still get a 1.2ish carat WF ACA for around $6900!


Plus Whiteflash and GoodOldGold have great upgrade policies so you can get a bigger diamond or change shapes if you want to later on. Definitely spend some more time here, read up on diamond cut, and buy online!

Thanks so much for the info and the insight. I am more of a 1 carat kind of girl. With the HoF''s today, I was almost persuaded to go into .71 territory! I am not set on an HoF center stone at all. I just love the setting that I found today. HoF will not allow consumers to purchase their settings alone. Must come with an HoF diamond. Soooo, now what I need to find is a very similar setting. I''ve come across quite a few already that are similar, but not exactly what I had in mind.

After seeing a 4k mark-up today, I don''t see how we would not buy on-line. I am so glad I came across this site!! I really thought I was getting a great deal on that E colored 1.01!!

Yes, I do want at least an ideal cut. The first ring I tried on was an estate ring -- ideal cut, .95, F colored, SI1, with six surrounding G colored stones. It is just a lovely, lovely ring. Beautiful platinum setting. It was only 6,500 for the whole ring!! That store explained that estate pieces actually cost less than new diamonds because they are "used". I was very surprised by this, but that''s why I thought all of the rings today were so much more expensive, until I came home to this wonderful site!!!

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 11/23/2007 7:48:35 PM
Author: Sparkalicious
If you are interested I have a jeweler I am dealing with in the Seattle area who has been great to deal with and who is able to offer designer settings at a a much lesser cost than standard B&M locations. They have graduate gemologists on staff and a master appraiser. They do deal online as well, if you are interested. Maybe they could provide you with some pricing comparisons?

Sure. Are you dealing with them in person? Is your bf going to buy on-line? It sounds like you''ve been shopping around a bit, and I''d be curious to know if you were going to buy locally.

I am astounded that jewelers would lower their prices substantially if you brought in your own research. I don''t know what they would have done if I had brought in research today. This is such a confusing process.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 11/23/2007 7:44:22 PM
Author: Sparkalicious

One place I was dealing with ... reputable as well but with lots of overhead due to location & advertisements/marketing ... advised they would knock $2,000 off the price of a diamond they had b/c I brought them the details on another one I had found!!! I didn''t like this at all because this action doesn''t seem to have much integrity so I decided to go elsewhere.

i don''t know all of the details obviously, but IMO there are many company''s that will pricematch or offer a discount if you can find the same thing elsewhere, jewelry stores as well as places like best buy..etc. I think it''s just good business, heck, I love to find a deal and many time ask for their best price, or if they can do better or how much can they knock off. I don''t think it shows a lack of integrity really, they are just trying to make the sale and you are being rewarded with the discount b/c you educated yourself..

 

[iheartscience]

Are you sure about HoF not allowing people to purchase their settings alone? I think I recall someone here doing just that. It could be that the jewelry store is just telling you that so you''ll buy a diamond from them. Or maybe they just don''t do it. Either way, the setting is a fairly simple one and I''m sure you could find it from a PS vendor. WF does great custom work and I believe they have a similar stock split shank setting on their website.

If you want to avoid the confusion of wheeling and dealing with a B&M, I suggest skipping it and buying online. If you go with a reputable PS vendor like Whiteflash.com or GoodOldGold.com, you''re definitely going to get the best price possible on a super ideal cut diamond. What color/clarity combo are you looking for? I''m sure we can suggest several diamonds for you to choose from if you''re ready to buy!

 

[Sparkalicious]

Yes, we are dealing with them in person. I know it is horrible & I feel archaic saying it but we just can''t bring ourselves to buy a diamond online ... yet. I feel like I need to see it in person in order to "experience" its beauty and decide if it is the one or not.

We have been shopping around for a long time and I was really pleased with the customer service we were getting from a popular retail store, however, as I began to get more education, I realized that even though they are an "engagement ring store", they did not carry the type of quality in which I was interested. Also, their prices were not that competitive. Basically, they were working off the "emotional" angle of the process where the ambience/customer service they offer in their store is what gets you hooked.

Anyways, long story short, my bf was researching loose diamond prices online for comparison purposes and came across Gemological Trading Corp in Seattle. We booked an appointment and met with Mary. She was phenomenal to deal with, however, the product she had to offer was exceptional as well. I fell in love with a 1.28 E VS2 ideal cut round brilliant. We are pretty certain we are going to go with this one but we just want to cover off a few final things before we decide to commit to this beauty.

Their website is http://www.seattlediamond.com/. Check them out ... The website isn''t fancy or anything, however, what they make is incredible ... My bf & I are pretty convinced about the value they offer. While we were there Mary showed us this 4 or 5 carat canary diamond band that was set in platinum. It was fabulous -- Looked as good as an A on a report card. I''m sure that they will be willing to help you out.

Remember if you are out of state as well, if you buy online, you won''t have to pay tax! Bonus!!

I hope you find what you are looking for! By the way, I checked out the Hearts on Fire website ... Boy am I glad I have never heard of these before ... They would just get me in trouble. They sound absolutely beautiful. I''m not even going to look at one until after we get my diamond and setting.

 

[Sparkalicious]

Mr Salvo,

Thanks for the sage advice. I think you are right ... My feelings are not really rational though ... My emotions have been like a roller coaster throughout my diamond/setting quest.

I just felt as though the action was disingenuous b/c they were so good at building rapport with us that I was foolish enough to believe that they were "looking out" for the best deal for us. It is business and as a business person, if you can sell something for one price and get it, why not, right? That''s the point!

I appreciate you attempting to infuse me with some logic. It feels much better to look at this situation from your perspective and simply as a welcome side effect or prize for taking the time to get educated and become an informed consumer.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 11/23/2007 10:03:53 PM
Author: thing2of2
Are you sure about HoF not allowing people to purchase their settings alone? I think I recall someone here doing just that. It could be that the jewelry store is just telling you that so you''ll buy a diamond from them. Or maybe they just don''t do it. Either way, the setting is a fairly simple one and I''m sure you could find it from a PS vendor. WF does great custom work and I believe they have a similar stock split shank setting on their website.


If you want to avoid the confusion of wheeling and dealing with a B&M, I suggest skipping it and buying online. If you go with a reputable PS vendor like Whiteflash.com or GoodOldGold.com, you''re definitely going to get the best price possible on a super ideal cut diamond. What color/clarity combo are you looking for? I''m sure we can suggest several diamonds for you to choose from if you''re ready to buy!

I am not at all sure about HoF not allowing settings alone to be purchased. I am sure that is what the jeweler told me, and they were quite adamant about it. They pulled out the 9,900 deal, and they would not put that diamond on the HoF setting. They also had a similar style in stock, more similar to the WF standard setting you mentioned, and I outright rejected that setting. The reason why I like the HoF setting so much is because it is sooooo delicate looking. The shanks are very, very narrow. If you look at the two pictures (sorry, I could not copy the HoF setting from their website) you will see that the pave''s are open on the sides of the HoF whereas the WF setting is completely enclosed. Adding that extra metal to fill in the edge/sides of the WF makes the ring more substantial, so the ring really loses its delicate quality.

I just started looking really (2 stores) so I''m even impressed at how sure I am about the detail above!!! You think WF could modify their standard setting to remove that extra metal on the sides?

The stone itself, I think I want an F, VS1 - SI1 (I cannot detect a difference within this clarity range.)

The only thing that I am now confused about is size!! I always thought .95 to 1 was perfect, but I was wearing a 1.25 HoF for quite a while yesterday, and that size seemed quite lovely too! So, I guess I am not quite sure yet.

I would like to buy on-line though. Say I could purchase the HoF setting alone, and I get a stone on-line, where do I go to get the stone set? A local jeweler?

Thank you so much for your help.

 

[Sparkalicious]

I love your questions and thought pattern! They mirror my own and help validate all of the confusion I, myself, have been experiencing.

Do you like a bridge under the center stone that is "framed" so to speak by the split shank? If so, for a long time I was drooling over this Simon G ring I called the "V" ring. I don''t know the style number and, unfortunately, have no pics to show you but from what you have described, it sounds as though it would be right up your alley. Firstly, it is a split shank ring with pave set diamonds. It has bridge of channel set diamonds that run under the center stone and when you look down at the ring, you see the bridge in the middle of the split shank ... Bad description but it is so lovely. The center stone is held by 4 prongs ... A "V" with pave set diamonds on each side of it.

I''m attaching a picture of a Judith Conway setting that I saw and loved. It does not have a split shank or a bridge under the center stone but it still might give you a better idea of what I am trying to describe. If you think you might like it, try checking out the Simon G website to find a vendor in your area.

 

[Sparkalicious]

style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 452px">Date: 11/24/2007 1:27:58 AM
Author: Loves Vintage

Date: 11/23/2007 10:03:53 PM
Author: thing2of2
Are you sure about HoF not allowing people to purchase their settings alone? I think I recall someone here doing just that. It could be that the jewelry store is just telling you that so you''ll buy a diamond from them. Or maybe they just don''t do it. Either way, the setting is a fairly simple one and I''m sure you could find it from a PS vendor. WF does great custom work and I believe they have a similar stock split shank setting on their website.


If you want to avoid the confusion of wheeling and dealing with a B&M, I suggest skipping it and buying online. If you go with a reputable PS vendor like Whiteflash.com or GoodOldGold.com, you''re definitely going to get the best price possible on a super ideal cut diamond. What color/clarity combo are you looking for? I''m sure we can suggest several diamonds for you to choose from if you''re ready to buy!

I am not at all sure about HoF not allowing settings alone to be purchased. I am sure that is what the jeweler told me, and they were quite adamant about it. They pulled out the 9,900 deal, and they would not put that diamond on the HoF setting. They also had a similar style in stock, more similar to the WF standard setting you mentioned, and I outright rejected that setting. The reason why I like the HoF setting so much is because it is sooooo delicate looking. The shanks are very, very narrow. If you look at the two pictures (sorry, I could not copy the HoF setting from their website) you will see that the pave''s are open on the sides of the HoF whereas the WF setting is completely enclosed. Adding that extra metal to fill in the edge/sides of the WF makes the ring more substantial, so the ring really loses its delicate quality.

I just started looking really (2 stores) so I''m even impressed at how sure I am about the detail above!!! You think WF could modify their standard setting to remove that extra metal on the sides?

The stone itself, I think I want an F, VS1 - SI1 (I cannot detect a difference within this clarity range.)

The only thing that I am now confused about is size!! I always thought .95 to 1 was perfect, but I was wearing a 1.25 HoF for quite a while yesterday, and that size seemed quite lovely too! So, I guess I am not quite sure yet.

I would like to buy on-line though. Say I could purchase the HoF setting alone, and I get a stone on-line, where do I go to get the stone set? A local jeweler?

Thank you so much for your help.

With regards to size ... Go for bigger!

1.25 is a bigger bang for your buck anyways. I started out only wanting 1 carat as well but as I looked and looked and looked ... I started to get greedy and really comfortable with 1.25 as well. Now I have found a 1.28 carat stone but I keep thinking, maybe, just maybe I can go a little bit bigger ... I read somewhere on PS a post that made a lot of sense. There is a huge visual difference b/n a 1 carat and 1.25 carat stone, however, there is a minimal difference, visually, between a 1.25 carat and 1 and a half.

It''s crazy how many things there are to think about, isn''t it? I had no idea, when embarking on this process that it could get so complex or that it would be so interesting and fun!

 

[Kay]

The Whiteflash Allegro setting looks very similar to the HOF split shank. It is $1,295 in white gold and $1,975 in platinum. Whiteflash also does quite a bit of custom work so they could probably modify it to your liking. It is set with their line of super ideal stones called "A Cut Above" or ACA for short. ACAs have the same fire as HOF, but without the same mark-up. Whiteflash also carries non-branded ideal cut stones in their Expert Selection line. Often these stones just miss being ACAs and cost a bit less.

http://www.whiteflash.com/Engagement-Rings/Styles/Diamond-Settings/-Allegro-in-D-_1117.htm#

Here are a few ideal cut stones that look good and are under $9,900:
1.011 ct G VS2 A Cut Above H&A for $7,635: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-54077.htm
1.01 ct D VS2 Round Ideal Cut "Expert Selection" for $7,676: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-155612.htm
1.12 ct F VS1 A Cut Above H&A for $9,879: http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-329894.htm


My e-ring (marquise) came from Whiteflash and I love it. The price and cut quality were so much better than what we found locally. I referred a colleague who bought an expert selection round brilliant, and it is beautiful.

 

[galleygal]

Hello, just wanted to say that I have that HOF setting and it''s beautiful. My FI picked it out and while trying two different settings on, the sales lady took out a HOF diamond and then one of their loose diamonds and we mixed them up on accident. We couldn''t tell which was which, obviously my FI went with the diamond that was half the price as a HOF. You should be able to find a jeweler that will sell a HOF setting w/o a HOF diamond. However, we did purchase the loose diamond from them as well. HOpe that helps.

 

[Kay]

If you want to go closer to the 1.25 mark, here are a few Expert Selection stones that might work for you:

1.24 ct F VS2 Round Ideal Cut $9,138: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-273585.htm
1.222 ct E VS2 Round Ideal Cut $9,375: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-256918.htm
1.26 ct F VS1 Round Ideal Cut $11,050: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-60624.htm
1.215 ct G SI1 Round Ideal Cut $6,685: http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-513834.htm

SI clarity stones can be a great deal as long as a trusted vendor verifies it is eye clean. Good luck shopping.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 11/24/2007 1:42:25 AM
Author: Sparkalicious
I love your questions and thought pattern! They mirror my own and help validate all of the confusion I, myself, have been experiencing.

Do you like a bridge under the center stone that is ''framed'' so to speak by the split shank? If so, for a long time I was drooling over this Simon G ring I called the ''V'' ring. I don''t know the style number and, unfortunately, have no pics to show you but from what you have described, it sounds as though it would be right up your alley. Firstly, it is a split shank ring with pave set diamonds. It has bridge of channel set diamonds that run under the center stone and when you look down at the ring, you see the bridge in the middle of the split shank ... Bad description but it is so lovely. The center stone is held by 4 prongs ... A ''V'' with pave set diamonds on each side of it.


I''m attaching a picture of a Judith Conway setting that I saw and loved. It does not have a split shank or a bridge under the center stone but it still might give you a better idea of what I am trying to describe. If you think you might like it, try checking out the Simon G website to find a vendor in your area.

That is a very lovely ring. I think I prefer a lower setting, so I don''t think a bridge will work for me, although I have to say, I love, love, love the settings with an x under the diamond. I still don''t know what this is called. Not a straight x, but with a bit of a curve to it. Anyway, that was before the pave split shank concept.

Today, we are going to go look at my vintage ring again. I''ve never asked about the cert for this ring, so I''ll do that today as well. And, there''s another shop that has both HoF and the other designer you mentioned above. So, we will go there too.

Comparing the prices that Kay listed above for 1 carat E''s and F''s, I''m guessing the search I did yesterday that showed $6,500 as the highest price was for less than ideal cut diamonds . . . . The 9,900 ring was not an ideal cut either, but maybe the mark-up is not as high as I first thought?

Still not sure what we will do, but we will keep looking. Yes, this is a very complicated process. I never would have imagined!!

 

[Loves Vintage]

Date: 11/24/2007 2:42:31 AM
Author: galleygal
Hello, just wanted to say that I have that HOF setting and it''s beautiful. My FI picked it out and while trying two different settings on, the sales lady took out a HOF diamond and then one of their loose diamonds and we mixed them up on accident. We couldn''t tell which was which, obviously my FI went with the diamond that was half the price as a HOF. You should be able to find a jeweler that will sell a HOF setting w/o a HOF diamond. However, we did purchase the loose diamond from them as well. HOpe that helps.

Thanks so much for letting me know. I looked up your other posts and found the pictures of your ring. It is just gorgeous. You and your Fi have very good taste!!

I will find out from another shop today whether they will put a non-HoF stone in an HoF setting. It could be just the shop that I went to yesterday that would be unwilling to do this. To be continued . . . .