Help! I was scamed and now need a new diamond!

[stkit]

I just made the biggest mistake of my life! I apologize if this post is a little long. I bought a diamond from a jewler in New York who was supposed to be a family friend...I cold not have been happier and even went ahead and had a ring custom made at Excel. As a precaution, when I got the diamond I had it appraised. Long story short, it is not what I was promised. Below is a summary of both appraisals:

1st appraisal sent to me by our family jewler before I bought the diamond:

From the Gemological Appraisal Laboratory of America
Emerald Cut
Measurements 8.27x5.26x3.60 MM
Weight 1.50 Cts
68.4% - Depth
68% - Table
Girdle - Thin
Cutlet - None
Polish - Good
Symmetry - Good
CLARITY GRADE – VS1
COLOR GRADE – D
Fluorescence – none

The 2nd appraisal I had done confirmed the weight and measurements but graded the diamond with a G COLOR and S1 CLARITY

Is there any doubt that this guy scammed me? TO go from a D to a G sounds absurd.

I have alredy paid for the diamond but hopefully I can get my money back.

My question to all you jewlers out there is does anyone know of a diamond with the same measurements above that is available for purchase? Can a custom ring be refitted to another diamond size?

My other big dilema now is that I am out of the coutnty and am flying back on the 23rd to propse...help! Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I am sure as heck going to post the name of the jewler on this website if he does not resolve this...

 

[mrssalvo]

there was a recent thread where someone was in a similar situation. A bunch of the experts chimed in, which I''m sure they will again here. In the meantime you might want to read what they said to the other poster. You can find it here

 

[mrssalvo]

was the second appraisal done when the stone was mounted? it is possible for the color grades to be different once a stone is mounted.

it also will depend on the type of setting you have on whether or not the ring would be able to fit a different size stone without having to be reworked.

 

[valeria101]

There are two circles in this sort of Hell: the price is sometimes in line with the actual grades (G/SI1) or worse, you may have paid for D/VS1. Which is it?

I hope you can return it 'no questions asked', but if not... does it look bad? Was it very bad value? G/Si1 doesn't sound bad - that it has been misrepresented as D/VS1 sounds sour

Anyway: who did the appraisal? If they sell jewelry themselves, it wouldn't be unheard of to receive a 'pessimistic' appraisal if the 'appraiser' hope to get further business from you that way.


... and this sort of uncertainty is why GIA is such a huge business

 

[mrssalvo]

What lab graded the stone you bought?

 

[stkit]

The 2nd appraisal was done as well with the diamond not in a setting. I paid $9,600. Not sure if I paid too much? I have seen diamonds with the D/VS1 characteristics for less and for more on pricescope. I guess it comes down to the cut?

 

[stkit]

The first report where I bought the diamond provide an appraisal from the Gemological Appraisal Laboratory of America, Inc.

the 2nd was done by a loca jewler that is a very trusted family friend that has been in the jewlry business for 30+ years. Not sure what certifications he has though b/c I am overseas and hav enot yet seen the report. He simply sent me an e-mail stating the size, color and clarity. He was also never told about the appraisal that accompanied the diamond.

 

[mrssalvo]

I have never heard of the lab who graded the stone on your first appraisal

.

hopefully, one of our experts will chime in. You obviously should have what you paid for but I think you''re going to need a more detailed independant appraisal to make a case with the original jeweler. your family friend who took a look probably won''t be good enough unless he has the creditials to back it up. Jewelers normally do not have the same qualifications as appraisers.

 

[kenny]

There is no such thing as "Actually a G SI1".
There is no "actually".
Labs have different standards.
This stinks, but it is just how it is.

If I were you I'd just focus my efforts on getting a refund.
Then buy a stone with a report from a lab with higher standards, like GIA.
You can also make the sale contigent on verification from an appraiser you trust prior to ever taking posession of the stone.

If you can't get a refund take heart that if your 1.5 ct emerald cut DID get a D VS1 from GIA it would have cost more than getting a "D VS1" from this other lab.

 

[mrssalvo]

just did a quick search here. a D VS1 1.5 Emerald cut runs closer to 12K
a G SI1 runs slightly less or right around what you paid. I''d take it to and independant appraiser. They can look at the stone and tell you if you over paid or not. If you are happy with the stone and paid a fair price for what you have, then I''d keep it, if not, you may have recourse with the jeweler It may not be worth the trouble. If a full refund is still possible, I agree with Kenny, take it and find a stone with a GIA cert.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/14/2006 10:39:36 AM
Author: stkit

I paid $9,600. Not sure if I paid too much?

GIA graded 1.5 cts D/VS1 goes from $9800 - $14k.. But most are around 10k. I wouldn''t jump to conclusions that every bit of price differences there is explain by cut (there is a range of different quotes for each stone, although not quite that much different).

Now, G/Si1... goes from $6800 to $9800. So if that is a fair grade, there are less expensive ones.

(btw. took GIA & AGS reports, table & depth 58-75% to get those results. Other lab reports are discounted a bit... and their grades considered less strict.).

It wouldn''t be unusual to pay higher price at a local store than online though, so the quote does not sound outrageous for a well cut stone. I can''t see yours, but at least the numbers sound OK. The diamond seems to have good spread (looking relatively large for its weight) compared to the others listed here - barely any is larger and this is one detail that is factored into price, usually.


If whatever inclusions make this one SI do not show at all, it would be a lucky find. Too bad it got sold with an inappropriate description

Perhaps the jeweler had the options to convince you that G/SI1 look clean & colorless after you had already made your mind that D/VS1 is the safe way to go. Oh well.. so, they took the easy way out.

Not that misrepresentation does not leave a bad taste - it does big time. IMO, you have every right to return the diamond because of it, even if it does look very nice indeed.

 

[RockDoc]

RE: 2 nd Appraiser

You should always make sure that you appraise the appraiser. This is vital for you to know what credentials, experience and equipment the appraiser has.

Most of the people doing appraisals out there are seriously lacking in one or all of the above "requirements" to really do the job right.

Being independent - i.e. not selling jeweler is immensley important. There are just not many truly independent appraisers. Probably about 20 of them in the entire US, and even less have advanced lab equipment needed to really provide comprehensive results.

To even make things more confusing and misleading for consumers is that a wide number of people exaggerate their credentials, telling consumers that they are for instance GIA CERTIFIED APPRAISERS. This is a blantant exaggeration of credentials. Additionally many of the appraisal groups and societies permit a "basic" membership which many use to impress consumers as a legitimate credential when it actually is not. If a person claims membership in an appraisal society, you need to check to see if they are a tested member of they have taken the courses that provide verification that the person you intend to do your appraisal has some important knowledge under their belt, rather than just being a affiliate member where the only requirement is to claim you are in the business of appraising and write a membership fee check.

The ASA and AGS do not permit exaggeration of their credentials, and require that their course be taken in order to advertise membership. NAJA and ISA do have affiliate or some sort membership status that one can say they''re a member of, to impress people that they have appraisal credentials, when in fact they do not.

Another issue that is important to know is that being just a gemologist, does NOT provide education, testing or credentials for appraising.

Evidence of this is very apparent when reading posts by consumers about how they got less than they thought from the appraiser they went to.

Unless you have a highly credentialed appraiser who IS local to you, selecting an appraiser because he is close to you is NOT the way to "APPRAISE THE APPRAISER".

Probably the largest number of true credentialed appraisers that are well equipped are active on this forum, regularly comment in various threads, and offer help and assistance commonly and unselfishly.

Rockdoc

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/14/2006 10:42:30 AM
Author: stkit
The first report where I bought the diamond provide an appraisal from the Gemological Appraisal Laboratory of America, Inc.

the 2nd was done by a loca jewler that is a very trusted family friend that has been in the jewlry business for 30+ years. Not sure what certifications he has though b/c I am overseas and hav enot yet seen the report. He simply sent me an e-mail stating the size, color and clarity. He was also never told about the appraisal that accompanied the diamond.

yep....another one of those lab report from mickey mouse and his friends. i don''t think you got scamed,you just got what you paid for.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/15/2006 12:12:37 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 4/14/2006 10:42:30 AM

Author: stkit

The first report where I bought the diamond provide an appraisal from the Gemological Appraisal Laboratory of America, Inc.



the 2nd was done by a loca jewler that is a very trusted family friend that has been in the jewlry business for 30+ years. Not sure what certifications he has though b/c I am overseas and hav enot yet seen the report. He simply sent me an e-mail stating the size, color and clarity. He was also never told about the appraisal that accompanied the diamond.

yep....another one of those lab report from mickey mouse and his friends. i don''t think you got scamed,you just got what you paid for.

yep thats the third or 4th report of that "lab" being 2+ grades off.
Thats why there needs to be a national grading standard.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 4/15/2006 3:36:41 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/15/2006 12:12:37 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 4/14/2006 10:42:30 AM

Author: stkit

The first report where I bought the diamond provide an appraisal from the Gemological Appraisal Laboratory of America, Inc.



the 2nd was done by a loca jewler that is a very trusted family friend that has been in the jewlry business for 30+ years. Not sure what certifications he has though b/c I am overseas and hav enot yet seen the report. He simply sent me an e-mail stating the size, color and clarity. He was also never told about the appraisal that accompanied the diamond.

yep....another one of those lab report from mickey mouse and his friends. i don''t think you got scamed,you just got what you paid for.

yep thats the third or 4th report of that ''lab'' being 2+ grades off.
Thats why there needs to be a national grading standard.

Hi Storm


There IS a "national" standard! It''s is the one set by the GIA for clarity and color. For cutting proportions the AGS is becoming the standard. But this is a subjective science (or art) and an opinion.

I totally agree that "something" needs to be done so that consumers depending on the accuracy of grading reports is reliable.

The problem isn''t the standard. The problem is professional accountability. There are just too many people issuing opinions that aren''t professionally qualified.

This goes not only for people who don''t have a stitch of knowing all the complex details who aren''t in the trade, to those who are untrained and uneducated within the trade as well. Add to this the combinations of people who do know, but choose to be intentionally deceptive, and those who attempt to be ethical and honest who don''t know.

Add to this mix, there are many who issue opinions on grading, that certain sellers seek out those labs who will overstate the quality in order to produce what appears to be a good lab report but isn''t. Certainly, this forum "singles" out who those labs are. The unfortunate part is usually by the time a consumer is vicitimized by these practices, the deed is already done.

What''s the answer? That is a problem that this industry has wrestled with for decades. Many groups in the trade have certification programs, but still some get the credentials but ignore the standards that go with them. Others state they have the "certifications" but don''t.

Some say it''s the consumer''s fault i.e. caveat emptor. If the consumer accepts or goes to someone or a lab and doesn''t do a little due diligence in checking out the reputation of the lab, appraiser, seller of whomever before they make the purchases, then who is to blame.

One "cure" would be licensing those with continuing educational testing and courses that would be REQUIRED in order to be licensed. But this probably won''t happen.... more people against it than for it. The states don''t want to legislate this as they don''t see that is is imperative to do. Doctors, dentists, attorney, and accountant''s have these requirements in order to be able to be licensed and practice. But funding to require this is pretty much ignored on a legislative basis. It is appearent that professional licensing is important to professions where there is potential damage to health issues, and financial issues, as well as issues that harm people on a wide basis of harm like the building trades. However to get the lawmakers busy it takes a calamity where thousands are "damaged". A lot of states have ammended their building codes but only after hurricanes do damage. They did license real estate appraisers, but only after there were tremendous financial losses of the savings and loan entities failed and incompetent and/or dishonest appraisals were but to blame since the Feds had to bail out all the problems.

If someone buys a item or art or jewelry, if there is a loss, it is individual rather than widespread. So it isn''t important to fund this type of program. Even when there are licensing standards, people operate outside the parameters of it. To get "attention" there has to be an Enron, Tyco, World Com, in such a a massively publicized event that lawmakers change the rules.

Until then, consumers need to be diligent. The internet has certainly helped in getting the message out there. But there are still more guys with the "black hats" rather than ones with the white hats out there.

It''s a "political" world.. and that too has its affect on things as well, but this is not limited to the diamond and jewelry world.
It''s everywhere and about everything to a great degree.

Rockdoc

 

[f0rbidden]

RockDoc,

that was, by far and large, the best explanation about the diamond grading situation I''ve read - anywhere.
Well stated and thoroughly explained, I now feel that I understand the true complexity of the situation.

So now, i sit here in these early morning hours, rolling the problem around in my head searching for a solution. I remember when people buying used cars had to be wary, as you never really knew what you were getting - then, along came CarFax. You could check out your purchase before hand and find out exactly where your car had been before it became yours - now they even offer a guarantee and will refund your purchase price in the event they missed some important piece of information.

It would seem that the respected grading labs have attempted to do something similar - those who research or who ask questions on places like PS find out that GIA or AGS are really the better options, and if you choose to go with a diamond certed by another lab, you never really know what you''re going to end up with - but still, as you said, buyer beware.

It''s a shame that a purchase such as this, which is not only a heavy financial investment but also a huge emotional one, isn''t better regulated. Maybe when a president or a prime minister is mislead and ends up with something other than what they paid for, governments will be more inclined to become involved.

And, my last little comment...I don''t think we need a national standard. I think we need an international one.

 

[RockDoc]

Thank you, Forbidden......

Was very thoughtful of you to make those comments.

It is appreciated, but now I''m blushing too.

Rockdoc

 

[diamondgirlNY]

I am sincerely sorry to hear that you are having such troubles. RocDoc was great in explaining the "nature" of the industry... Reputation and a person''s word used to mean something years ago....there are still jewellers/dealers who live by the "code" of the industry, and rely upon the honest man''s word...
My point here, is YES there are numerous problems with "grading" and "appraising" non cert stones etc.... but I believe that the true "root" of the problem lies with the "family jeweller" who sold you the stone, sight unseen. He has you as a client, someone who is willing to trust him, he should be even more careful and diligent in making sure you are getting the best deal out there, and not be so wishy washy about the whole thing.... the relationship with the person who referred you to him and yourself is also something he should consider. I think that you should ask him to provide you with a GIA stone with the same color and clarity and price. He sold it to you as a D VS then you should demand that he provide you with a world recognized lab. I agree with RocDoc that there are no "guarantees" as far as color and clarity, but GIA is a leading Lab because of their "consistancy"...they are not infallible, but the industry uses them as a "benchmark" to standardize the market...

best of luck to you.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi Stkit. I think the first step is to find out what you really have. A grading that everybody involved will accept. A GIA or AGS report
would work nicely.

Then work with the original seller using the GIA or AGS grading as a benchmark. If the grading is the same, fine. If it is less than what the seller told you (and you like the stone) ask for the appropriate discount.

If you don''t like the stone use the proper grading as your reason for returning it.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 4/14/2006 2:21:32 PM
Author: RockDoc

Being independent - i.e. not selling jeweler is immensley important. There are just not many truly independent appraisers. Probably about 20 of them in the entire US...

If you use the generally accepted definition of "independent appraiser", (one who does not work for a jeweler and does not buy or sell), I would say you're wayyyyyyyyyy low on your estimate Doc.

If you use your definition of an "independent appraiser", (one who does not work for a jeweler, does not buy or sell, and does not do any appraisal work for a member of the trade), then possibly your estimate is correct.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 4/15/2006 11:39:01 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 4/14/2006 2:21:32 PM
Author: RockDoc

Being independent - i.e. not selling jeweler is immensley important. There are just not many truly independent appraisers. Probably about 20 of them in the entire US...

If you use the generally accepted definition of ''independent appraiser'', (one who does not work for a jeweler and does not buy or sell), I would say you''re wayyyyyyyyyy low on your estimate Doc.

If you use your definition of an ''independent appraiser'', (one who does not work for a jeweler, does not buy or sell, and does not do any appraisal work for a member of the trade), then possibly your estimate is correct.

Hi Rich!

I am using MY definition of what an independent appraiser is. Mine is based on, and reconciles with the "reasonable person''s test", and one that every attorney I''ve asked says IS the proper standard of being completely independent.

I should clarity that to say that " the appraiser doesn''t do work for a jeweler that a potentially opposing third party would rely on", or more plainly expressed an assignment that would be used as a "sales tool".

I have a legal matter that I need to find an attorney for who has not, or his firm has not, had a case representing an insurance company. Pretty tough to find.

I don''t think my estimate of how many completely independents there are out there isi low at all. I think I''ve been a little "generous" in estimating that number.

Have a great holiday weekend. You ridin'' your new motorcycle this weekend? Weather seems great here for that.

Rockdoc

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 4/15/2006 2:38:06 PM
Author: RockDoc
I don''t think my estimate of how many completely independents there are out there isi low at all. I think I''ve been a little ''generous'' in estimating that number.

Rockdoc

Perhaps so. You''re the only one I''ve ever met. Do you know of any other appraisers who fit your definition of independent?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 4/15/2006 2:38:06 PM
Author: RockDoc

Have a great holiday weekend. You ridin'' your new motorcycle this weekend? Weather seems great here for that.

Rockdoc

Thanks for reminding me. I think I''ll take a midnight cruise down to the beach...

 

[RockDoc]

Hi Richard

Did you go...?????

Maybe you saw the Easter Bunny hidin'' some of the colored eggs on the beach?????

A wishful thought...... How about an Easter Bunny that would hide fancy colored diamonds to hunt for?

Rockdoc

 

[Modified Brilliant]

To even make things more confusing and misleading for consumers is that a wide number of people exaggerate their credentials, telling consumers that they are for instance GIA CERTIFIED APPRAISERS.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scariest scenario that I''ve seen twice this month....a Graduate Gemologist (G.I.A.) advertising his/her credentials as a "GIA Certified Appraiser." If a GG can''t even use the correct approved title...what can you expect from them as far as a "detailed" appraisal?
Right away that shows a lack of understanding. intentional or unintentional...there''s no excuse.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com