Harry Windston doesn''t mind windows!!

[T L]

. . . so neither should you!!

http://www.harrywinston.com/Product.aspx?alias=031a-colorchangepurplesapphireandbaguettediamondring&current=colored-stone-rings&section=rings

I guess I'm just a little perplexed as to why a very expensive and famous jeweler with world class gems wouldn't at least close up this window? For me, fine color is one thing, and I don't mind windows if the color is great, but it's just a bit shocking to be paying those prices and seeing that gaping window.

ETA: And sorry I didn't spell Mr. Winston's name right in the title.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

ha-ha-ha...its pretty, but um yeah, for those prices I expect more

 

[Michael_E]

If I was cutting large world class stones like that I doubt very much whether I'd be worried about a small window either. Harry Winston is most likely not cutting these stones, but are buying them from another cutting organization. Since this sort of material is so valuable, it pays large dollars to keep as much of that crystal intact as possible and still get an adequate looking stone. For every carat of material removed the cutter probably loses $2000. If removing the window meant losing $2000 there are very few cutters who would do so. Why? Most people are not so concerned about a little window. They realize that this is a one of a kind crystal that was fashioned to keep as much of it intact as possible and still get a nice stone. Expecting more from Harry Winston is kind of funny, since they are providing exactly what their clientèle values the most and a little window is not even on the radar screen.

Check out some of their other pieces or some of the extremely high valued offerings being sold lately in other venues and you'll find small to large windows in many gems selling in the hundreds of thousands to millions. In these cases it's the intrinsic beauty of the material itself and sometimes it's provenance that is valued far more than the cutting style. Maybe Harry Winston actually does know something about what they're doing after all ?

 

[ma re]

TL was probably refering to doing something different with the setting, which would give the impression of a closed window, but I could be wrong (I doubt she''d suggest precision cutting on an 8 ct CC sapphire...). If that''s the case I understand your point TL, but I guess that would require changing the whole design, as those baguettes would give off a completely different look if set next to a (example) bezel set stone. It''s also a question of how the color would react to this change, not to mention the CC effect, so if those two would end up diminished... And Michael''s point about general public is spot on, cause my mom has a gemstone set into a ring with a window the size of a volcano, and she never thought that''s something that was not suppose to be there. Same goes for my cousin''s wife, who has a stone in a pendant with a huge window as well - people who are not obsessed with jewellery (like the Brady bunch around here) don''t even know there''s such a thing as a window in a gemstone.

 

[T L]

Michael,
This is a purple color change sapphire that wholesale, while valuable, isn't worth as much as a Kashmir or other fine Burmese sapphire. I think the House of Harry Winston could afford to remove the window. It is a reputation thing too as well. If Laurence Graff could cut six carats out of the Whittelsbach (which I thought was disgraceful and a lot more expensive to do), I think HW's benefactors could close up this window. I doubt the man, HW himself, if alive today, would approve.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 3:45:22 AM
Author: ma re
TL was probably refering to doing something different with the setting, which would give the impression of a closed window, but I could be wrong (I doubt she''d suggest precision cutting on an 8 ct CC sapphire...). If that''s the case I understand your point TL, but I guess that would require changing the whole design, as those baguettes would give off a completely different look if set next to a (example) bezel set stone. It''s also a question of how the color would react to this change, not to mention the CC effect, so if those two would end up diminished... And Michael''s point about general public is spot on, cause my mom has a gemstone set into a ring with a window the size of a volcano, and she never thought that''s something that was not suppose to be there. Same goes for my cousin''s wife, who has a stone in a pendant with a huge window as well - people who are not obsessed with jewellery (like the Brady bunch around here) don''t even know there''s such a thing as a window in a gemstone.

True, do something to either close up the window, or even use a better setting to hide, it, but I doubt the latter would work. As for your mom''s ring, did she get it from HW???? I have some rare gems with huge windows, and for someone like me, it''s not going to benefit me to close them, but that purple sapphire from an extremely high priced jewelery fashion house???? That''s a totally different story.

 

[ma re]

Date: 1/23/2010 10:36:50 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

As for your mom''s ring, did she get it from HW????

LOL, should''ve specified I was talking B&M pieces

Thanks for a good laugh...

 

[RevolutionGems]

I''m not convinced the stone is actually windowed. It looks to me like you are simple seeing the bottom facets through the table. I would like to see the stone with some direct light to see how it performs. That window may just be an optical illusion.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 11:56:19 AM
Author: Revolution
I''m not convinced the stone is actually windowed. It looks to me like you are simple seeing the bottom facets through the table. I would like to see the stone with some direct light to see how it performs. That window may just be an optical illusion.

Rev,
I have to disagree with you, but even if you are correct, why would a high end jeweler like that release such a horrid looking photo of this ring? If I were them, and the window was not obvious IRL, wouldn''t you think they would make it look that way on their website??? You would think??? Right? LOL!

 

[RevolutionGems]

Your are right Tourm. It is a curious choice.

I am sitting here typing trying to come up with a valid reason they would use that photo on their front page. I can''t come up with one.

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 1/23/2010 12:06:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/23/2010 11:56:19 AM
Author: Revolution
I''m not convinced the stone is actually windowed. It looks to me like you are simple seeing the bottom facets through the table. I would like to see the stone with some direct light to see how it performs. That window may just be an optical illusion.

Rev,
I have to disagree with you, but even if you are correct, why would a high end jeweler like that release such a horrid looking photo of this ring? If I were them, and the window was not obvious IRL, wouldn''t you think they would make it look that way on their website??? You would think??? Right? LOL!

TL, I''m with you, though I also think the common person browsing high end jewelers'' sites would never notice or question it.

Remember the Legacy with bad miligrain on the Tiffany site? How many people would even notice that?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 12:35:17 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier

Date: 1/23/2010 12:06:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/23/2010 11:56:19 AM
Author: Revolution
I''m not convinced the stone is actually windowed. It looks to me like you are simple seeing the bottom facets through the table. I would like to see the stone with some direct light to see how it performs. That window may just be an optical illusion.

Rev,
I have to disagree with you, but even if you are correct, why would a high end jeweler like that release such a horrid looking photo of this ring? If I were them, and the window was not obvious IRL, wouldn''t you think they would make it look that way on their website??? You would think??? Right? LOL!

TL, I''m with you, though I also think the common person browsing high end jewelers'' sites would never notice or question it.

Remember the Legacy with bad miligrain on the Tiffany site? How many people would even notice that?

LTP,
Isn''t that sad?

As for Tiffany''s print ads, they''re deplorable, and I cannot believe they release that for public consumption. My theory is that they have gotten so cocky that they could put crap on their website, and the consumer just doesn''t see the lacking quality, and Tiffany knows this and doesn''t care. You should have seen the horrible uneven millgrain work I saw on a Tiffany ring in an article in Brides Magazine recently, my jaw dropped. I was also looking at a Cartier diamond e-ring solitaire ad, and the stone had very obvious inclusions in it. I was a bit appalled at that as well. It''s a bit amazing how one''s reputation can make them bury their head in the sand.

I don''t expect such quality or such pristine ads from your regular jeweler, but I do from the big design houses.

 

[Sagebrush]

Jeff,

I agree, that image is odd? Is it a stone cut just at the edge of windowing or has the image been altered? We have all seen stones cut just that way but...

Some of the most famous and expensive gems on earth are windowed. The Regent, The Wittelsbach. Graff cut just 4.45 carats off the Wittelsbach. I am waiting for an image of the recut stone, will post it!

I dislike windows, they disturb the eye, however, Micheal E. is correct, no one is going to gut a fine sapphire to remove a window.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 1:40:58 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Jeff,

I agree, that image is odd? Is it a stone cut just at the edge of windowing or has the image been altered? We have all seen stones cut just that way but...

Some of the most famous and expensive gems on earth are windowed. The Regent, The Wittelsbach. Graff cut just 4.45 carats off the Wittelsbach. I am waiting for an image of the recut stone, will post it!

I dislike windows, they disturb the eye, however, Micheal E. is correct, no one is going to gut a fine sapphire to remove a window.

I disagree, and is that really a fine museum quality sapphire? It's just huge (8 carats). I've seen people on PS with really fine sapphires get JW recuts all the time.

 

[Kim Bruun]

This forum has made me really critical about windows - having learned that it is a result of the cut, I have really come to appreciate how a window can kill an otherwise good stone. If this stone does indeed have a window, it deserves to be recut. The colour is absolutely gorgeous - why sacrifice some of it for the sake of a little extra weight?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:28:06 PM
Author: Kim Bruun
This forum has made me really critical about windows - having learned that it is a result of the cut, I have really come to appreciate how a window can kill an otherwise good stone. If this stone does indeed have a window, it deserves to be recut. The colour is absolutely gorgeous - why sacrifice some of it for the sake of a little extra weight?

I've actually seen better colored color change sapphires than that one, if that's what the color looks like IRL. To be fair, it's an ad, and it could look worse, or better, than the ad. Now if it was truly a unique, rare, museum quality piece, like the Whittelsbach for example, I could see the huge gaping window left in place. The Whittelsbach, which I keep referencing is not only important because it's one of the largest blue diamonds in existence, but also because of it's historic value, so while not enirely a fair comparison, I think it brings the point across.

I do think HW can afford to recut the otherwise horrible native cutting on that stone. I'm not saying it needs a top end precision cut, but I do think it would be more of a beautiful and valuble stone if it was truly a quality colored gem. HW's buyers have connections to some of the world's most beautiful gems, so I'm clueless why they would buy THAT??? I think it's totally about major profit in this one ring's particular case. I also wonder if they left it like that because it might be a very deep stone, and therefore, if they recut it, it would greatly, not just a little, lose saturation of color, which in the end, would mean it's not the best quality to begin with.

Check out the obviously brown padparadscha they have on their site as well. There's one that's quite beautiful, and another, when in comparison, looks very brown.

 

[Michael_E]

I disagree, and is that really a fine museum quality sapphire? It''s just huge (8 carats).

Try and buy something like that and you''ll find out pretty quickly if it''s a museum quality gem.

There''s a wee bit of a problem with analyzing this gem from a picture, as is always the case when the thing is not sitting in hand. If this were actually a window you would be able to see more of the bottom of the band through the stone. Since all you can see is part of the band on the very sides of the window, I would have to agree with Jeff, that this is not a window in the traditional sense. I think that this stone may be cut around the culet a bit deeply and so what you''re seeing is a reflection out the sides of the stone. This would correlate to what is termed "leakage" in the diamond section of this forum. The effect is similar, since you can sort of see out of the bottom of the stone, BUT it''s not a window. Jeff is quite correct in that this stone would have to be held in hand in order to make a more critical appraisal of how it looks. I''d sure like to see a side view of this stone. Anyone have a buddy at Harry Winston ? Maybe we could get them to post some videos of their stones on Youtube. Yeah, right.

 

[T L]

That''s NOT a window? Ummmm okay.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:37:12 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
HW''s buyers have connections to some of the world''s most beautiful gems, so I''m clueless why they would buy THAT???

They''d buy that for the same reason that they''d buy the Paraiba tourmaline ring that looks like little balls of water sitting on ice...because it''s beautiful AND because they CAN buy it. Those darn Paraiba''s are completely included, but the inclusions add to the artistic effect and the color is fantastic. The people who wear this stuff aren''t going to be wearing them to their job at the local hardware store. They''re wearing them at special occasions and making a statement with them. Inclusions ? No big deal, they add to the effect. A little brown in the HUGE Padparadscha, well that''s just part of the stone and in real life I''m sure that it doesn''t take away from the stone at all.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:43:10 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
That''s NOT a window? Ummmm okay.

Where''s the band ?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:54:38 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 1/23/2010 2:37:12 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
HW's buyers have connections to some of the world's most beautiful gems, so I'm clueless why they would buy THAT???

They'd buy that for the same reason that they'd buy the Paraiba tourmaline ring that looks like little balls of water sitting on ice...because it's beautiful AND because they CAN buy it. Those darn Paraiba's are completely included, but the inclusions add to the artistic effect and the color is fantastic. The people who wear this stuff aren't going to be wearing them to their job at the local hardware store. They're wearing them at special occasions and making a statement with them. Inclusions ? No big deal, they add to the effect. A little brown in the HUGE Padparadscha, well that's just part of the stone and in real life I'm sure that it doesn't take away from the stone at all.

Michael, but that's exactly my point. In the past, if I wanted the best of the best, I would go to HW, and now I think they're sinking into the same pit that Tiffany did a long time ago, and others are following. There are other wonderful jewelers with smaller names, and wonderful gem suppliers, that would sell the same quality material as HW touts they sell, but for fair pricing. If I'm buying from HW, I don't want to pay those prices for included and windowed (IMO) stones. I guess we just see it differently. I see it from a consumer standpoint (if I was a millionaire - LOL!), and you see it from a seller standpoint I think.

JMO.

ETA: Have you ever seen Nomad's gems??

No huge windows either and very large and fine color.

http://www.gemsbynomads.com/

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 1/23/2010 3:01:18 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I guess we just see it differently. I see it from a consumer standpoint (if I was a millionaire - LOL!), and you see it from a seller standpoint I think.

That brings up an interesting point TL. Unless the seller viewpoint and buyer viewpoint are very close, then there will not be a buyer. If HW can sell these things as the top pieces available at their respective price levels, then at least one person must agree with them. What I''m trying to do is to put myself in the buyers viewpoint of these items. If I had the money and it was a toss up between a Picasso to hang on the wall of the bathroom, a silly little Ferrari or any of those rings, I''d take any of those rings.

 

[Kim Bruun]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:37:12 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

I've actually seen better colored color change sapphires than that one, if that's what the color looks like IRL. To be fair, it's an ad, and it could look worse, or better, than the ad. Now if it was truly a unique, rare, museum quality piece, like the Whittelsbach for example, I could see the huge gaping window left in place. The Whittelsbach, which I keep referencing is not only important because it's one of the largest blue diamonds in existence, but also because of it's historic value, so while not enirely a fair comparison, I think it brings the point across.

I do think HW can afford to recut the otherwise horrible native cutting on that stone. I'm not saying it needs a top end precision cut, but I do think it would be more of a beautiful and valuble stone if it was truly a quality colored gem. HW's buyers have connections to some of the world's most beautiful gems, so I'm clueless why they would buy THAT??? I think it's totally about major profit in this one ring's particular case. I also wonder if they left it like that because it might be a very deep stone, and therefore, if they recut it, it would greatly, not just a little, lose saturation of color, which in the end, would mean it's not the best quality to begin with.

Check out the obviously brown padparadscha they have on their site as well. There's one that's quite beautiful, and another, when in comparison, looks very brown.

It's not the most intensely saturated violet, but I would call it cool rather than grayish - and violet can still be beautiful even if not fully saturated (unlike green, IMO). I am attracted to the stone's colour, and the fact that it is big and doesn't have (judging from that pic) any inclusions that jump at you, I would still say that it is an exceptional stone, even if it isn't an exceptional cut. Thank you for educating me, though. I agree that the pad is brown.

One question: Why would the stone lose saturation by being recut? I can see why it would become lighter in tone by being cut less deep, but not why it would become more grayish. Is there something I have misunderstood?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 3:08:36 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 1/23/2010 3:01:18 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
I guess we just see it differently. I see it from a consumer standpoint (if I was a millionaire - LOL!), and you see it from a seller standpoint I think.

That brings up an interesting point TL. Unless the seller viewpoint and buyer viewpoint are very close, then there will not be a buyer. If HW can sell these things as the top pieces available at their respective price levels, then at least one person must agree with them. What I''m trying to do is to put myself in the buyers viewpoint of these items. If I had the money and it was a toss up between a Picasso to hang on the wall of the bathroom, a silly little Ferrari or any of those rings, I''d take any of those rings.

Don''t get me wrong, I would take that HW ring in a second, but not if I was very very wealthy. I would shop around, like I do now, but in that case, I would be a lot more discriminating in my choices.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:55:46 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 1/23/2010 2:43:10 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
That's NOT a window? Ummmm okay.

Where's the band ?

OK, it is OK to sell windowed stones for Harry Winston.
Why then PS-ers show their buys here and ask, "is it windowed? Is it not?" And then their fellows advise them against buying something that is cut poorly. Inclusions are another thing, sometimes they are desirable, sometimes not, but I was one of the first ones to advise MakingTheGrade to buy a sapphire - it had an inclusion, but the cut was wonderful and the color was breathtaking. I'd rather people sell smaller well-cut stones than huge blings that are shoddily cut.
My alexandrite has a huge color shift - it would have been even better had they not cut it with a huge window, either to maximize the weight, or to cut off inclusions, or both! Just because the price per carat weight of expensive stones goes up exponentially above 2 carats, the cutters would rather make it ugly in order to charge more. I'd rather they charged more per carat of a well-cut stone, than per two carats of something sloppily cut.
All of it, of course, does not apply to stones of historic value. But this stone is not a blue diamond.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 3:10:43 PM
Author: Kim Bruun

Date: 1/23/2010 2:37:12 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

I've actually seen better colored color change sapphires than that one, if that's what the color looks like IRL. To be fair, it's an ad, and it could look worse, or better, than the ad. Now if it was truly a unique, rare, museum quality piece, like the Whittelsbach for example, I could see the huge gaping window left in place. The Whittelsbach, which I keep referencing is not only important because it's one of the largest blue diamonds in existence, but also because of it's historic value, so while not enirely a fair comparison, I think it brings the point across.

I do think HW can afford to recut the otherwise horrible native cutting on that stone. I'm not saying it needs a top end precision cut, but I do think it would be more of a beautiful and valuble stone if it was truly a quality colored gem. HW's buyers have connections to some of the world's most beautiful gems, so I'm clueless why they would buy THAT??? I think it's totally about major profit in this one ring's particular case. I also wonder if they left it like that because it might be a very deep stone, and therefore, if they recut it, it would greatly, not just a little, lose saturation of color, which in the end, would mean it's not the best quality to begin with.

Check out the obviously brown padparadscha they have on their site as well. There's one that's quite beautiful, and another, when in comparison, looks very brown.

It's not the most intensely saturated violet, but I would call it cool rather than grayish - and violet can still be beautiful even if not fully saturated (unlike green, IMO). I am attracted to the stone's colour, and the fact that it is big and doesn't have (judging from that pic) any inclusions that jump at you, I would still say that it is an exceptional stone, even if it isn't an exceptional cut. Thank you for educating me, though. I agree that the pad is brown.

One question: Why would the stone lose saturation by being recut? I can see why it would become lighter in tone by being cut less deep, but not why it would become more grayish. Is there something I have misunderstood?

It could lose tone and saturation. I recently had a cuprian recut and I could see the loss of color saturation due to the lighter tone. Sometimes tone is tied to saturation. It didn't become greyer, but it became paler and did lose color. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but much lighter toned stones tend to be less saturated than darker ones can tend to get. For example, you'll never see a vivid saturated very light toned stone. Doesn't happen (at least not that I know of).

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 1/23/2010 2:39:21 AM
Author: Michael_E
If I was cutting large world class stones like that I doubt very much whether I''d be worried about a small window either. Harry Winston is most likely not cutting these stones, but are buying them from another cutting organization. Since this sort of material is so valuable, it pays large dollars to keep as much of that crystal intact as possible and still get an adequate looking stone. For every carat of material removed the cutter probably loses $2000. If removing the window meant losing $2000 there are very few cutters who would do so. Why? Most people are not so concerned about a little window. They realize that this is a one of a kind crystal that was fashioned to keep as much of it intact as possible and still get a nice stone. Expecting more from Harry Winston is kind of funny, since they are providing exactly what their clientèle values the most and a little window is not even on the radar screen.


Check out some of their other pieces or some of the extremely high valued offerings being sold lately in other venues and you''ll find small to large windows in many gems selling in the hundreds of thousands to millions. In these cases it''s the intrinsic beauty of the material itself and sometimes it''s provenance that is valued far more than the cutting style. Maybe Harry Winston actually does know something about what they''re doing after all ?

Well said Michael, I agree with you completely.

--Joshua

 

[Kim Bruun]

I definitely understand, but even among pale stones, some are just pale, while others are pale AND grayish.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/23/2010 3:25:41 PM
Author: Kim Bruun
I definitely understand, but even among pale stones, some are just pale, while others are pale AND grayish.

The GIA would call a very unsaturated stone slightly greyish or brownish, even if you couldn't see the grey or brown, no matter the tone. Sometimes the grey or brown, or even yellow (that can be a modifier too) is just not very obvious to the untrained eye. Sometimes the grey is so prevelant, that the sedondary color really is grey (as in the case of my two small lavender grey spiinels). Grey really isn't a color though, according to the GIA. It's a modifier.

 

[T L]

Now this larger, more saturated, and unwindowed stone is the kind of CC sapphire I would expect HW to carry.

I bet it costs less too.