For the inexperienced, how do we know what we are buying is what it truely IS?? eg real vs fake

[haagen_dazs]

Hi all
I spent alot of time in the diamond forums and I think diamond sales by vendors are more regulated.
Almost all diamonds are sold with a grading report and we know that states the stone is a real diamond

For coloured gem stones, I am not sure how one will be able to tell from a
natural VS synthetic.

How do you know if the person is not selling you a coloured piece of glass... ><"
I am sure the vendors that are highly praised are legit but I still would like to know how to verify what we are buying (other than PAYING yet someone else like an appraise the stone)

Thanks all

 

[simplysplendid]

The jewelry trade is based on trust. Other than getting a certificate or an appraisal, I will base it on trust. Anyway, after seeing gemstones for a while, an experienced consumer would be able to tell to a certain extent whether something is synthetic or not from the colour, the inclusions etc. Some more savvy consumers may even have equipment at home to test the gems they purchase.

 

[morecarats]

Mark, if you''re buying a serious stone (say, over $1k) the dealer should supply a certificate from a recognized gemological lab. Many dealers will arrange certification for you at a nominal cost for less expensive stones as well.

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/26/2009 8:13:04 PM
Author: morecarats
Mark, if you''re buying a serious stone (say, over $1k) the dealer should supply a certificate from a recognized gemological lab. Many dealers will arrange certification for you at a nominal cost for less expensive stones as well.

thanks morecarats!
i think i asked you in another thread
are you based in thailand?

yeah for the smaller stones, is there any articles that teaches consumers how to differentiate between synthetic and natural sapphires?
can the difference be observed under a 10x loupe or are special equipments needed?

i actually do see quite a number of >1000usd gem stones without certification. hmmm

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/26/2009 6:31:07 PM
Author: simplysplendid
The jewelry trade is based on trust. Other than getting a certificate or an appraisal, I will base it on trust. Anyway, after seeing gemstones for a while, an experienced consumer would be able to tell to a certain extent whether something is synthetic or not from the colour, the inclusions etc. Some more savvy consumers may even have equipment at home to test the gems they purchase.

unfortunately i don''t base life on trust too much because i suffered major betrayals before.
anyhow, natural and synthetics can span a whole spectrum of colour
colour is sooo complex
i am comfortable buying from a reputable gem seller.
i am just wondering what else i can do to bolster my confidence

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/26/2009 9:34:42 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 10/26/2009 6:31:07 PM

Author: simplysplendid

The jewelry trade is based on trust. Other than getting a certificate or an appraisal, I will base it on trust. Anyway, after seeing gemstones for a while, an experienced consumer would be able to tell to a certain extent whether something is synthetic or not from the colour, the inclusions etc. Some more savvy consumers may even have equipment at home to test the gems they purchase.

unfortunately i don''t base life on trust too much because i suffered major betrayals before.

anyhow, natural and synthetics can span a whole spectrum of colour

colour is sooo complex

i am comfortable buying from a reputable gem seller.

i am just wondering what else i can do to bolster my confidence

The best way when you are nervous is getting a reputable lab grading report with the gemstone that you want. It is possible to train yourself with some GIA or other Gemologocial techniques to pick up on fakes. It does depend on the gemstone type of interest though. Something you can do if you live in a larger city is find a local gem dealer that carries both real (or an online one that will send some samples), synthetics, and simulants, and you can start practicing to identify the major differences, but at that level you won''t be 100% accurate, but you''ll be able to tell the obvious ones. Practice makes perfect...

However, 100% certainty will only come with a grading report, unfortunately.

--Joshua

 

[Stone Hunter]

Well of course buying from a reputable vendor is important. That''s the whole trust thing.

Then a relationship with a local jeweler that really knows their stuff. My local guy can look at something and quickly tell me that it is glass.

Then learning how to do that yourself. I''m just not there yet. But I am more skilled with the loupe than I was.

WARNING: All of the above applies to the less expenisve stones where a report just seems silly!!

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/26/2009 9:29:16 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 10/26/2009 8:13:04 PM
Author: morecarats
Mark, if you''re buying a serious stone (say, over $1k) the dealer should supply a certificate from a recognized gemological lab. Many dealers will arrange certification for you at a nominal cost for less expensive stones as well.

thanks morecarats!
i think i asked you in another thread
are you based in thailand?

yeah for the smaller stones, is there any articles that teaches consumers how to differentiate between synthetic and natural sapphires?
can the difference be observed under a 10x loupe or are special equipments needed?

i actually do see quite a number of >1000usd gem stones without certification. hmmm

I have been in this business for quite a few years (yes, in Thailand). I have some formal gemological training and a lot of experience looking at gems (often with money on the line, which tends to focus attention). I am not confident of my ability to detect synthetics or treated gems "just by looking." I use to be more confident, but I had too many cases where my hunches turned out to be wrong, or where my more careful technical measurements turned out to be inadequate. The first step in knoweldge is to know what you don''t know.

Even at the lab I use most often in Bangkok, gemologists with 20 years experience are not permitted to sign off on a report. The analysis has to be checked by a second gemologist before the test report is issued. Gem identification can be a tricky business, and it increasingly depends on the use of advanced instruments.

 

[chrono]

Mark,
Lab certification in the US can be pricey. You may want to consider AGL''s $25 brief.

 

[adams828]

Mark - some great advice from all the responses above. Personally I went through the same thing, but overall it really is also about how comfortable *you* feel with each of the methods (i.e. recommended vendors, getting a cert. above a certain $, etc.) Since my purchase was for an engagement ring, and what I considered (to me at least) a large amount of money, even though it was from a well regarded, trusted source I went ahead and had it appraised independently.

The main thing I wanted to add is always remember - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There probably is a reason why two stones that are described to be the same (for example 1 carat, eye clean, cut, color, etc.) may be $500 at one vendor, and $200 at another...

 

[T L]

I worry just as much about heavy treatment on a gem as much as if it''s synthetic. For example, to me, a BE-treated sapphire is just as worthless as a lab sapphire. I know some people would disagree with that, but it''s just to point out that synthetics are not the only thing you have to worry about when obtaining a gem.

 

[Michael_E]

Any cert has just about the value of the paper that it''s printed on, if you don''t know what you''re doing and can''t verify that the stone in one hand matches the cert in the other. Not all certs are equal, since not all labs are equal in their abilities, equipment and integrity. Having an appraisal done is also only worth the qualities of the appraiser. There are only three ways to assure yourself that you''re getting what you are supposed to be:

1. Buy stones which have certs that are from reputable labs AND have them checked against the stone by a bonafide gemologist. I have met several "appraisers" over the years who were hard pressed to tell garnet from ruby and actually had one client want to return a sapphire ring which he was told couldn''t be a natural sapphire, since the color wasn''t like it "should" be.

2. Buy from a cutter who is well versed in gemology and knows what they are cutting and selling. This can also be problematic and it''s always good to check with a bonfide gemologist on stones which are costly to you.

3. The best method is to know what you''re doing. If you''re see that you''re becoming a gem addict, then you are going to be a lot better off if you get a few tools, (a good loupe or microscope, a pile of books and some instruction is a good start), and just learn about what you are doing. You don''t have to be a gem geek or anything, but with a bit of experience it''s pretty easy to tell a synthetic sapphire from a natural one, a garnet from a ruby or anything from glass. There are now several good online reference sites which can provide more information and you can always have a professional gemologist look over something if you feel that something is risky. I my opinion, nothing beats education and experience.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Many times an appraisal doesn''t cost you money, but rather saves you money.

If you make a purchase contingent upon it appraising out to your satisfaction with the appraiser of your choice, you''ll avoid buying synthetics, heavily treated stones and overpriced stones.

There are many dealers/jewelers who come to me for an ID or an appraisal before making a purchase. These are experienced people. They look to me to not only keep them out of trouble, but help them save money and make money.

Like them, you might consider an expert opinion and documentation an investment rather than an expense. t''s a shift in your thinking, but one in the long run that will probably save you substantial amounts of money if you''re going to be a lifelong gem buyer. You just don''t have the time to learn how to identify beryllium diffused rubies, clarity enhanced diamonds or natural looking flux synthetics.

To insure a stone you''re most likely going to need an appraisal anyway, so why not get it at the point-of-purchase, when it can do you the most good?

 

[LD]

Morecarats - I''m interested in your opinion of Labtrade in Thailand? I''ve bought a number of gems/diamonds certified by them in the past and when having them checked in the UK, typically they''ve been accurate. In actual fact, their diamond grading in terms of clarity has actually been quite fierce!

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/27/2009 7:35:41 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Morecarats - I''m interested in your opinion of Labtrade in Thailand? I''ve bought a number of gems/diamonds certified by them in the past and when having them checked in the UK, typically they''ve been accurate. In actual fact, their diamond grading in terms of clarity has actually been quite fierce!

I''m sorry I don''t have any useful information about Labtrade. They seem to be focussed more on diamonds than colored gems, and more on the appraisal side of the business rather than gem identification. They also seem to have some products specifically directed at the pawnbroker market (I guess that''s why their main location is in Las Vegas).

The labs I use most often in Thailand are AIGS, GIA and GIT.

 

[chrono]

MoreCarats,
Are you familiar with Tokyo Gem Labs? With a name like that, one would expect them to be in Tokyo so it was a surprise to see them based in Thailand.

 

[partgypsy]

The short answer is (unless you have an experienced colored stone appraiser look at it) you don''t ever really know.

If you really wanted to get into it you can buy specialized equipment like scales that measure specific gravity, refractometers, test double or singly refractions, uv filters, etc and learn a whole bunch about various tests to distinguish the various natural stones from each other. Those instruments cost more than an appraisal and require lots of practice with known stones before attempting it on unknown stones (so that means you have to have access to stones that already have accurate IDs). As far as distinguishing natural from synthetic, that is a whole other level of knowledge/ball of wax. Suffice to say I looked into doing that and while it is certainly interesting I realize for me it is simply easier to buy from known trusted sellers.

And as Rich says if it is an expensive stone it may be more cost effective (especially from a peace of mind perspective) to get it appraised.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/28/2009 5:50:51 PM
Author: part gypsy
The short answer is (unless you have an experienced colored stone appraiser look at it) you don''t ever really know.

If you really wanted to get into it you can buy specialized equipment like scales that measure specific gravity, refractometers, test double or singly refractions, uv filters, etc and learn a whole bunch about various tests to distinguish the various natural stones from each other. Those instruments cost more than an appraisal and require lots of practice with known stones before attempting it on unknown stones (so that means you have to have access to stones that already have accurate IDs). As far as distinguishing natural from synthetic, that is a whole other level of knowledge/ball of wax. Suffice to say I looked into doing that and while it is certainly interesting I realize for me it is simply easier to buy from known trusted sellers.

And as Rich says if it is an expensive stone it may be more cost effective (especially from a peace of mind perspective) to get it appraised.

In the gemstone trade the term "appraiser" is usually reserved for someone who appraises the value of a gemstone. An appraiser may also be a trained gemologist who does gemstone identification. A gemological laboratory, on the other hand, does gemstone identification but not (usually) financial appraisals.

The reason that dealers (and many buyers also) take their gems to gemological labs is that the best labs have advanced instruments that go beyond the measurement of specific gravity, refractive index, birefringence, etc. These advanced instruments are needed in many cases to detect synthetics and various treatments and even in some cases to do the basic task of gem identification.

By way of illustration, let me give you an example. Last year we bought a parcel of opaque black gemstones that were sold to us by a reliable dealer. He identified them as black garnet. We had them tested at a lab that used standard gemological instruments. The lab wasn''t quite sure what it was, but the specific gravity and refractive index were in the garnet range, and the samples were singly refractive. So we were fairly sure it was garnet, even though the lab wouldn''t certify it.

But despite these measurements, it turned out not to be garnet at all. We took some samples to a lab that had advanced instruments such as an EDXRF (Energy Dispersive X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrometer). This device does chemical composition analysis, and it showed that our material was magnesium aluminum oxide, also known as spinel. Though the specific gravity and refractive index were out of the spinel range, it turns out that this iron-rich black spinel is an exception to the values you''ll find in your typical gemological reference -- the iron content results in a higher specific gravity and higher refractive index.

My observation is that there is a growing gulf between a small number of labs with advanced instrumentation and highly trained staff, and your traditional gemologist operating with standard tools. Many gemologists know the limits of the standard equipment and will simply refuse to issue a report when they aren''t sure. But there is no shortage of gemologists and appraisers who will take their best guess based on the evidence at hand. After all, they surely know more the customer buying the report.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/28/2009 4:07:20 PM
Author: Chrono
MoreCarats,
Are you familiar with Tokyo Gem Labs? With a name like that, one would expect them to be in Tokyo so it was a surprise to see them based in Thailand.

I know the lab, but have never used them. I think they have a good reputation, but I don''t know what equipment they have (see my post above concerning advanced instrumentation).

They are one of the several Japanese-owned labs in Bangkok, another being Emil Gem Laboratory (Japan).

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 10/28/2009 4:07:20 PM
Author: Chrono
MoreCarats,

Are you familiar with Tokyo Gem Labs? With a name like that, one would expect them to be in Tokyo so it was a surprise to see them based in Thailand.

I''m not MoreCarats but the answer is that the main office is in Tokyo. Since BKK is such a major gem center the lab has a branch there, just like GIA and several other major international labs. It is a highly reputable lab.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[chrono]

Thank you!