For all the cut lovers! Question?

[squarediamondlove]

I know here at pricescope the perfection in the cut is valued above all else. I have definately came to appreciate that principle. However as a newbie and having friends and family that don''t even know that cut matters, I was wondering:

Can a knowlegable person (not a layman but also not an expert) really tell which stone looks like its an excellent cut and which is a very good cut or above average cut simply by looking at the stone say 1 foot away in isolation (and not comparing stones side by side)? I know everyone are cut nuts here and focus less on color and clarity, but can a knowlegable observer really see the quality of cut. I''m not talking about bad cuts, we all know we can see those dead lifeless stones. Do you think one can really see a great quality cut better than one can see the diamond''s color or clarity quality?

For example - would a knowlegable perfer believe that an ideal cut J-K color stone is a better diamond than a standard good quality cut F- D color stone?

By the way this goes for all shapes: rounds, princess, radiants, emeralds, asshers, pears, ovals, marquise, and etc!

 

[Mara]

yes.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/22/2005 1:07:03 PM
Author: Mara
yes.

agree
with one catch:
it depends on the lighting.
Some lighting will make almost any diamond look good and some lighting will make any diamond look bad.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Just as a disclosure statement: One of the reasons that I ask this (besides the fact that I though it would be a fun question) is b/c my mother wants to get an e-ring, probably a round stone. (My mom just has a wedding band). She however is completely clueless when it comes to diamonds. I want her to have either an ideal cut round or a H&A (my preference is for H&A). But I was wondering if its worth spending the extra $$ if she may not even notice the difference or at least appreciate it (but she may see a difference in the clarity or color)?

 

[oldminer]

I wanted to put an answer in the poll, but mixing the judgment of fancy shapes with rounds made me hesitate to make a single reply. Well cut rounds and Ideal cut rounds look a lot alike and differ only slightly. One must look rather diligently to note differences.

With well cut fancy shapes, there is yet little consensus on what is even Ideal, with the possible exception for AGS princess cuts, although lots of dealers would argue that those stones are not especially alone at the top of all princess cuts. There is little agreement yet on any fancy shape.

Our eyes can certainly detect well cut fancy shapes from poorly cut ones. That''s how I made the AGA Cut Class charts, by sight and extrapolation from experience. Its the same as telling a beautiful face from an ordinary face. To be able to detect the MOST beautiful requires a sort of refined examination that the eyes can''t do very well. The eyes blend characteristics, but the determination of the BEST or the IDEAL, or the MOST BEAUTIFUL demands the measuring of nearly invisible, individual aspects that go into the whole. I don''t think the eye can do it very well.

Eyes are excellent tools for screening faces or diamonds. Are they up to the task of determining what is the absolute BEST? Probably the eyes are not able to work at that level with accuracy.

 

[belle]

yes. no question.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Date: 11/22/2005 1:21:16 PM
Author: oldminer
I wanted to put an answer in the poll, but mixing the judgment of fancy shapes with rounds made me hesitate to make a single reply. Well cut rounds and Ideal cut rounds look a lot alike and differ only slightly. One must look rather diligently to note differences.


With well cut fancy shapes, there is yet little consensus on what is even Ideal, with the possible exception for AGS princess cuts, although lots of dealers would argue that those stones are not especially alone at the top of all princess cuts. There is little agreement yet on any fancy shape.


Our eyes can certainly detect well cut fancy shapes from poorly cut ones. That''s how I made the AGA Cut Class charts, by sight and extrapolation from experience. Its the same as telling a beautiful face from an ordinary face. To be able to detect the MOST beautiful requires a sort of refined examination that the eyes can''t do very well. The eyes blend characteristics, but the determination of the BEST or the IDEAL, or the MOST BEAUTIFUL demands the measuring of nearly invisible, individual aspects that go into the whole. I don''t think the eye can do it very well.


Eyes are excellent tools for screening faces or diamonds. Are they up to the task of determining what is the absolute BEST? Probably the eyes are not able to work at that level with accuracy.

I guess I should have seperated it into rounds and fancys.

You seem to suggest that its a bit harder to tell the level of cut (ideal, very good) in a round once it is above a certain quality. So if someone can''t distinguish and thus doesn''t fully appreciate the symmetry of a H&A and just wants a lot of sparkle, than is it worth sepending the $$ on it. (the gift to my mom may be a surprise from my dad and I - he supplies the $$, I just pick the stone.

)

 

[Lorelei]

Yes. I believe the more you look at and compare round diamonds the differences in cut become more apparent even from a distance. However many have their personal performance preferences and prefer more fire, some more brilliance which may vary between Ideal Cuts. I have a hard job to find any exceptional cuts here in the UK as most you see are good cuts at best, many more average to poor

I seem to think the big C in England is clarity.

 

[moremoremore]

Hmmm, I"m not convinced that a *very good* cut stone would look all that different from an *ideal* cut stone in most lights.... Again, I say *very good* and not just ok, or good.

I also wouldn't take the ideal J or K over the good D or F... I'd go for a smaller, very good G

If you say I *must* chose one, I'm probably still in the small minority that would take the colorless good cut...Perhaps not the most *educated* choice, but color is very important to me...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/22/2005 2:26:44 PM
Author: moremoremore
Hmmm, I''m not convinced that a *very good* cut stone would look all that different from an *ideal* cut stone in most lights.... Again, I say *very good* and not just ok, or good.


I also wouldn''t take the ideal J or K over the good D or F... I''d go for a smaller, very good G

If you say I *must* chose one, I''m probably still in the small minority that would take the colorless good cut...Perhaps not the most *educated* choice, but color is very important to me...

I hear you.
It depends on where you place your priorites.
there really isnt a simple answer to this I keep on coming back and wanting to put in a bunch of if and or buts but in the end it would get too confusing.
The question covers too much territory and different variables.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Date: 11/22/2005 3:00:30 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/22/2005 2:26:44 PM

Author: moremoremore

I also wouldn''t take the ideal J or K over the good D or F... I''d go for a smaller, very good G

If you say I *must* chose one, I''m probably still in the small minority that would take the colorless good cut...Perhaps not the most *educated* choice, but color is very important to me...

I hear you.

It depends on where you place your priorites.

there really isnt a simple answer to this I keep on coming back and wanting to put in a bunch of if and or buts but in the end it would get too confusing.

The question covers too much territory and different variables.

Sorry if this covers too much ground. I guess I was trying to simplify the matter just to get a general sense of what everyone thought.

I''m not sure, but are we moving slightly away form what I meant.

I was trying to be more objective, rather than subjective. What would an third person notice when looking at the stone and not necessarily what YOU would pick color/clarity over cut. (although these thoughs are welcomed as well

) If you give the third person two sets of stones (at different times, so they are not viewed side by side), which one would THEY probably find more appealing, one that sacrifices a bit on cut (say D-F but very good cut to above just good cut) or another that sacrifices on color/clarity (say an J-K)? If you had to guess, of course

 

[squarediamondlove]

By the way, I would love to hear form some that put down "No" on the poll as well.

As for my preferance, I guess I would agree with moremoremore. I would definately sacrifice a bit on cut to get a better color/clarity. I''m sensitive to color and just love the whiteness of D''s and E''s. Ofcourse I would definately not want a stale D stone on my hand.

 

[widget]

Author: Kaleidoscopic
I guess I was trying to simplify the matter just to get a general sense of what everyone thought.

LOL....as you have learned, "simplifying the matter" is almost impossible here at PS...way too many techno cut geeks around! (No offense, guys...I love you!)


I however...not being so much "into" diamonds (especially RBs)....loved your pole and had no problem voting in it. I voted "NO".

widget

 

[glamgirl]

I dont have an Ideal or H&A cut, But a decent cut stone I can tell you, I have seen ideal cuts next to mine, and I find mine equally beautiful. My local Jeweler thought it was an ideal cut and said it had a very "fine make". Mine has more Brilliance than fire, and it''s own personality. I have had many people admire and ask me about my diamond. I choose not to elimate my diamond on "numbers" but made the choice to look at it before passing judgement, and automatically writing it off. I think a very good cut can compete, and I question the difference based on what my eyes see. Given the choice of numbers or my eye, my eye wins. The first stone I considered was a AGS 0, i color grade 1B cut. I now have a grade 3 cut H color, that is whiter brighter, and I LOVE! My brain says 1B is better, but my eye says otherwise....so.....the eyes win.

 

[Mara]

interestingly enough brian at WF had told me a story where when he puts about 6 diamonds in front of people, all exceptionally cut and similar sizes but all different colors, most people gravitate towards the warmer colors (aka i think he said 9 out of 10 people)...aka the H/I/J or similar, as being more ''appealing'' to them. i find that interesting from a stat perspective, i think that people are conditioned to want a lower color (aka D-G) but in reality your eye would probably find any sparkly, well cut diamond appealing from a beauty perspective if you were not socially conditioned to think it was white or yellow.

that said, having had a decent cut G and then an exceptional cut H and then an exceptional cut J and also my husband having an exceptional cut E....how I got rid of my G and into the H was by showing my husband, who knows nothing about diamonds, my shallow-not-so-great G stone (but pretty, not a DOG but not ideal) next to his super ideal E just BLEW his mind (and mine too).

so that''s why i say unequivocally yes you can see a difference between varieties of okay or good cuts and super ideal or exceptionally well-cut stones. and even in bad lighting, the well-cut stone still looks better IMO. my current stone looks crappy in hard sunlight but it''s a better crappy than my old old stone.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Date: 11/22/2005 5:11:51 PM
Author: Mara
interestingly enough brian at WF had told me a story where when he puts about 6 diamonds in front of people, all exceptionally cut and similar sizes but all different colors, most people gravitate towards the warmer colors (aka i think he said 9 out of 10 people)...aka the H/I/J or similar, as being more ''appealing'' to them. i find that interesting from a stat perspective, i think that people are conditioned to want a lower color (aka D-G) but in reality your eye would probably find any sparkly, well cut diamond appealing from a beauty perspective if you were not socially conditioned to think it was white or yellow.


that said, having had a decent cut G and then an exceptional cut H and then an exceptional cut J and also my husband having an exceptional cut E....how I got rid of my G and into the H was by showing my husband, who knows nothing about diamonds, my shallow-not-so-great G stone (but pretty, not a DOG but not ideal) next to his super ideal E just BLEW his mind (and mine too).


so that''s why i say unequivocally yes you can see a difference between varieties of okay or good cuts and super ideal or exceptionally well-cut stones. and even in bad lighting, the well-cut stone still looks better IMO. my current stone looks crappy in hard sunlight but it''s a better crappy than my old old stone.

I wonder if the experiment Brian at WF did was on only round stones. For some reason I can see people liking the warmer tones in round cuts more than princess and emeralds. The rounds are more softer and traditional, while the square shapes look more icy and sharp or snowflaky so that more colorless tones are appropriate.

I agree with you. I think that there is definately a line where you start to see the quality of stone more readily, once the difference in quality between the two sones becomes greater. I can definately differentiate a standard cut form an exceptional cut. I can look at a stone and know if its standard. However when it comes to more refined stones, it gets a little more difficult.

I was in the store looking at round stones with my friend and the dealer handed me a round diamond and said it was "ideal cut." He then asked me why I looked disappointed. I told him that for an ideal, I thought it would sparkle more. I looked at the specs and from the limited GIA report it seemed ideal (55% table 60% depth). However, I think the pavillon angle and crown angle and etc were not those of an ideal stone b/c that stone sparkled similarly to mine (and I have a princess cut). SO something was off and I could tell just by looking at it. It didn''t look like a bad cut, just didn''t look like an "ideal."

 

[noobie]

I would say yes, but it depends on how you are looking at them and if you are comparing. Some really bad deep and shallow cuts or ones with no crown, I can see right away because they are bad.

If you line them up and look at them in a tray on a white background, then sure. However, in practical wearing conditions, (i.e. mounted and at casual viewing distance in variuos lighting conditions) I would agree with MMM, it''s much harder to tell a super ideal from a very good premium.

I''ve tried this myself with a few stones.

 

[Shay37]

Most of the women in my DH''s family have very nicely cut diamonds, including my MIL. I can tell a difference. More than that, so can they. They all just go nuts over how sparkly my diamond is. That''s the difference I see. Their stones are not dogs at all either.

shay

 

[solange]

I voted No. I am sure I could not tell a well cut diamond from a super ideal. I just know whether a stone is sparkly and is not dark or dull.
Very few peo;le will look at your stone as closely as you will. I think for the most part,most people see the size and the sparkle. Perhpas if you have different stones at home to compare in different light, you might train your eye to see certain features.
My ring looks different to me in different conditions and I cetainly could not judge a stone very accurately. I just know a beautiful one from one that is not very pretty.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/22/2005 6:17:27 PM
Author: noobie
I would say yes, but it depends on how you are looking at them and if you are comparing. Some really bad deep and shallow cuts or ones with no crown, I can see right away because they are bad.

If you line them up and look at them in a tray on a white background, then sure. However, in practical wearing conditions, (i.e. mounted and at casual viewing distance in variuos lighting conditions) I would agree with MMM, it''s much harder to tell a super ideal from a very good premium.

I''ve tried this myself with a few stones.

yep....my wife had one of those and it looks dead.

 

[cinnabar]

When we bought my pear, I knew I wanted certain criteria that put my stone in the "good cut" rather than "premium cut" classification according to most vendors. I wanted it to be fat, ie 1:1.4 L/W ratio, and I preferred a thick girdle rather than a thin one because I felt it would be safer for a fancy with a point. My pear is shallower than ideal, at 58%, but combined with its fat shape, that actually helps minimise the bowtie effect which was something I was very particular about.

I deliberately chose a diamond that failed some of the tests as far as ideal cut goes, but couldn''t be more thrilled with the result.

Fancies don''t play by the same rules as rounds. I''d definitely want an ideal round, but fancies are a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[fisiogrl]

Love this question. I was wondering this myself. For example: when do stones start to look crappy: very good, good, fair...?

Anyway, I have a WF ACA as an engagement ring - looks great. I also have WF expert selection earrings - also look fabulous, but are not h&a etc. Realizing how great they look, I would probably sacrifice the h&a for my future diamonds as long as they are still in the ''expert selection'' category.

This probably doesn''t answer your question. Except to say that I think it is safe to drop down from the VERY TOP perfect cut and still have incredibly beautiful stones.

I can guarantee that not a single one of my friends would notice anything about cut! They see size, and would notice colour only if it was really yellow.....

 

[Mara]

Kaleidescope, yes the experiement was done only with rounds, fancies are definitely another bird. I think also it depends on the person's eyes and how sharp they are and if they know what to look for....which many people certainly don't in the regular consumer world. I think most of us on here tend to be more particular about looking at stones for the most part!!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/22/2005 1:04:19 PM
Author:Kaleidoscopic


Can a knowlegable person (not a layman but also not an expert) really tell which stone looks like its an excellent cut and which is a very good cut or above average cut simply by looking at the stone say 1 foot away in isolation

At some point cut makes a difference. But what is ''excellent'', ''very good'' and ''average'' in the statement above?

There are incremental steps of precision and ''quality'' all along the way.

So... I don''t know what to answer

As an aside and mostly related to the post by David Atlas (''Oldminer'') - I hope that cut quality for rounds and fancy shapes could be talked about in equal terms. Not that the geometry would be alike - but the language: much like the AGA tables use the same factors and categories for all shapes and the Bscope and DiamCalc standards are built to present ''cut quality'' across shapes them in a common language.

My 0.2.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/22/2005 7:05:00 PM
Author: solange
I voted No. I am sure I could not tell a well cut diamond from a super ideal.

If yours is the example of ''well cut'' - blessed be. no wonder!

That diamond is quite a cherry in its own right.


.... and such examples made me write ''I don''t know'' in the first place. It is hard to draw the line.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Date: 11/22/2005 10:15:36 PM
Author: valeria101

Date: 11/22/2005 1:04:19 PM

Author:Kaleidoscopic



Can a knowlegable person (not a layman but also not an expert) really tell which stone looks like its an excellent cut and which is a very good cut or above average cut simply by looking at the stone say 1 foot away in isolation

At some point cut makes a difference. But what is 'excellent', 'very good' and 'average' in the statement above?

I hope the question is not too confusing.

I guess to put it more specifically, can a knowlegable observer tell the difference between 1A grade or a 2A grade (AGS)? What about between 1A and 1B? (Again, assuming that they are NOT looking at the diamonds at the same time side by side)

Also, to get at the question form a different perspective, at which point does it become more apparent that the stone is not an excellent cut, excellent cut being 1A and maybe 1B? At 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A...? you get the idea. (I'm just using the AGS chart as a point of reference to define more precisely what I am talking about)

I don't know if this answer would differ depending on the diamond shape.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/23/2005 1:38:21 AM
Author: Kaleidoscopic

Date: 11/22/2005 10:15:36 PM
Author: valeria101

Date: 11/22/2005 1:04:19 PM

Author:Kaleidoscopic



Can a knowledgeable person (not a layman but also not an expert) really tell which stone looks like its an excellent cut and which is a very good cut or above average cut simply by looking at the stone say 1 foot away in isolation

At some point cut makes a difference. But what is ''excellent'', ''very good'' and ''average'' in the statement above?

[...] to get at the question form a different perspective, at which point does it become more apparent that the stone is not an excellent cut.

No, the question is not confusing... It should be the most natural thing in the world about cut grading, but so rarely mentioned! There are all these tools and precision metrics and what not, but few deal directly with ''visible effects''. Since the respective point where cut makes a difference gets confused with a set of parameters that tell one brand over another and one level of price premium over the next... things get confusing

For example,
...the 1A etc. grades you mention come from AGA (not AGS). David Atlas (''Oldminer'') made them and neither his posts nor the web presentation of the AGA tables claimed that there is a reliable relation between those grades and brilliance

There is this long explanation of why other things (shape, finish, table-crown-pavilion metrics) matter besides brilliance etc. Of course nowhere in these presentations is written that these grades actually matter more than the illusive brilliance they are not accounting for

Of course not. That would be strange... In fact, AGA has added a test of brilliance using a commercial device to their previous metric-based grades. In the complexity, the idea that there is a line above which the returns to further cut improvement (as defined by the grading standard) hits diminishing return has been lost...

''Too much precision'' is tabu topic about diamond cut grading

(not - otherwise this post wouldn''t be here)
Which doesn''t mean it is not a substantive one. Citing Garry Halloway (paraphrase), the cut grading of round brilliants has gone beyond the visible into measurable precision. Oh well...

I wonder if the cut grading for fancy shapes has even got to the visual precision - if it got anywhere. The AGS standard for princess cuts has followed a similar path as their grading for rounds, if I am not terribly mistaking. There are some other devices for fancy cut grading that do not make explicit links to visual perception in the description of their grades (if there is any more than the two lines in an add).

GIA''s new cut grading (rounds only again) makes explicit reference to visual effects. The sheer cost, expanse and authority of their research makes it tenable. It couldn''t be otherwise (IMO) for survey based results to be upheld - given they are a moving target for robustness tests. Say, sellers'' informal experience also amounts to long term surveys the size of their diamond business - but who is looking at it this way next to GIA and AGS formal studies?

Perhaps other methods but large scale panel studies could be employed to build in some reality check into cut grading... but that needs it''s own discussion. Probably way over my head (and right up Garry''s and Serg''s alley - HINT)

I can only hope this post is not offending to anyone mentioned or not.

Coming from a somewhat informed outsider, this is merely one approximate reading of the discussion on diamond cut carried on this forum. Of course I find it fascinating, but this doesn''t mean I''ve got good at it.


Hope some of this is not totally outside the scope of the question, Kaleidoscopic

 

[solange]

Date: 11/22/2005 10:19:25 PM
Author: valeria101

Date: 11/22/2005 7:05:00 PM
Author: solange
I voted No. I am sure I could not tell a well cut diamond from a super ideal.

If yours is the example of 'well cut' - blessed be. no wonder!

That diamond is quite a cherry in its own right.


.... and such examples made me write 'I don't know' in the first place. It is hard to draw the line.

My stone is an Ideal cut proportion wise but not super Ideal (Hearts and Arrows, etc.) However the polish is just Good and the symmetry Very Good.

I know some very discerning people can tell if a stone has excellent symmetry and polish and those stones usually are higher priced. But to me, it was paying for something I could not see.

I thank you for the nice comment about my ring. I think there is too much emphasis on some of the little nuances that will not be observed by anyone but an expert. I am sure I would not see a difference if my ring were not Ideal proportions. In fact, I have seen stones that were too shallow and they looked very white and bright to me. I almost bought one.

 

[oldminer]

There was mention up in the thread about Brian at WF offering six diamonds and having 9 out of ten people gravitiate to warmer colors in round diamonds. This might happen in rounds as a bit of body color adds to what one might confuse with fire, when it is actually body colored light. In rounds, the body color in the face-up view is quite even. With many fancy shapes, stones with some boidy color get concentration zones of darker and lighter colorations face-up. This is a little disturbing to the eye and I can well imagine people might then opt for a more colorless stone. For once, it all makes pretty good sense.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Date: 11/23/2005 1:21:04 PM
Author: oldminer
There was mention up in the thread about Brian at WF offering six diamonds and having 9 out of ten people gravitiate to warmer colors in round diamonds. This might happen in rounds as a bit of body color adds to what one might confuse with fire, when it is actually body colored light.

Thank you for that. I think might have been one of those confused people. My friend is looking at round stones for her e-ring and we were looking a 2 stones one being F or G very well cut stone and D stone which I believe was cut slightly worse. Even though I am such a D and E freak, the warmer tone of the F/G stone appeared very bright and I actually perfered it to the D(whether it was due to the cut or the effect that you have mentioned above).


I realize I have not expressed my opinion on the matter. I guess I would also pick "No." (i didn''t vote however)
If the question was phrased whether one would be able to tell the difference between a good cut and an ideal, than the answer would definately be "yes." I was just in the store and looked at a round good cut round (60% table 64% depth) and another was a H&A (56%table) and yes I could definately see the cut difference when looking at them, at different times, not side by side, form about a foot away.

However, I definately think that a person who is not obsess about cuts (no one on this forum

) who just looks to see if the stone sparkles nicely and has not seen many stones to build an eye for it would really be able to tell the difference in quality of cut unless the ideal diamond was compared with an average to poor cut, or unless they compare the stones side by side. An expert on the other hand would probably be able to tell the difference between a very good cut stone and an ideal cut stone in most circumstances.