Fancy Yellows With Medium Blue Flour

[katrina_33]

I saw another thread where medium blue flouresence in yellow diamonds was discussed. People seemed to agree that blue flour would counteract some of the natural yellow color, and that this wasn''t really desirable. Here''s my question though - since the GIA color grading of fancies is so subjective and is done face up based on how the stone appears to the eye and not against a set of masters or anything, wouldn''t any impact that the flour had on the appearance of the stone be factored into its color grade? For example, if what would have been a fancy yellow had flour that made it appear lighter, more like a fancy light , wouldn''t it end up graded by the GIA as a fancy light because of its face up appearance?

 

[valeria101]

The same question upside-down (about fluorescence in the near colorless range) is dissected as carefully as possible by Matin Haske (link to article on Adamas Lab website). A shorter article by the Professional jeweler (link) takes up the topic from different labs' perspectives...

From what I understood of it, the issue may lie with the lighting environment used for grading - whether it has a significant UV component or not. And with no grading resolve for one way or another, it all comes down to pricing for better or worse. It would be quite a different matter if some fancy intense price tag is a stake

Can't say which is the winning face of this coin. But then... there's yellow fluorescence that does just the same kind of good to yellow diamonds as the blue fluorescence does for the white. I have seen fancy intense yellows with yellow fluorescence, but none with blue. There seem to be more near-fancy (Y-Z and below) with blue fluorescence, and those do change face a bit depending on light, as you say.

Diamonds by Lauren comes up with such things all the time (Here's one) - hopefully David will find time to drop a line here.

 

[oldminer]

A diamond with a "fancy yellow" grade could be somewhat less yellow in appearance if there is a lot of UV content in the light. Going outside on a sunny day with the stone would give you an immediate answer to that particular diamond. Judging by the things I have seen from GIA, I''d say they do not take UV fluorescence into special account, but grade trhe stone as it looks, face-up, in their lab lighting. Their lab lighting does have some UV content, so we are told, but I don''t have first hand knowledge of that. I have never see a "facny yellow" that was "bad"....., but I have seen many Fancy Light stones that just looked like off color diamonds and not fancy color. It is judgmental on my part, but I think I can tell yellow from off-white....and so can most people.

UV flourescence is not something scary or terrible. The price asked usually relfects the stone''s quality in total. Take it outside on a sunny day, and see if YOU like it. Do not buy something YOU don''t like.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Effects of Flouresence in Yellow and light yellow diamonds is not easy to categorize.
Here''s why:
In the darker shades-( Fancy Yellow, Fancy Intense Yellow and Fancy Vivid Yellow ) flouresence actually makes the stone face up darker in average indoor lighting- including halogen, or jewelry store lights.
Here''s the strange part- GIA seems to be tougher on stones with flouresence- that is to say- a borderline stone that might actually qualify for Fancy Intense Yellowwill only get Fancy Yellow from GIA if it has Med or Strong Blue.

Yes, a stone like that will usually look a bit lighter in outdoor lighting.
Fancy Yellow ( or darker) stones may be priced lower due to flourescnece. This is similar to the effect of flouresence on D-E-F-G colors.
I feel that there are a few reasons for this:
Mostly, it''s because the person spending the money for a D/VVS1 usually looks more closely at every detail on the report- and this comment could shy away a percentage of such discriminating buyers. Therefore a D/VVS1 with Strong blue- even if it''s cut as well as one which has no blue- will bring a lower price.

Buyers of I-J-K diamonds usually just want a great looking stone - the GIA report, while usefull, is less important if it''s a great looking J color stone. Since flourescence may cause some J colors to look like G color, it stands to reason that blue stones in these colors would bring a premium- that''s not the case either.

In the lighter shades of yellow flourescence can totally wash out the color in sunlight. Not that this is a problem because these stones usually look awesome outdoors. In lower priced stones such as Y-Z and the lighter colors, flourescence has little effect on the price.
This is more similar to the situation with I-J-K-L color stones where the flourescence has no effect on price-

NOTE: There are stones which possess strong flourescence to such a degree as to make the stone look milky. This occurs on a very small percentage of diamonds. It is quite obvious at a glance if a stone suffers this problem. This discussion on price referrs to well cut stones with good brilliance.


Ana- thanks for asking! Based on what I see there''s pretty much an equal occurance of flouresnce in the darker yellows as in the lighter ones.

 

[katrina_33]

Thanks. Interesting. So, to re-cap, even on a fancy light yellow diamond, med flour shouldn''t affect how the stone looks indoors, and may or may not lighten the yellow color when viewed in sunlight?

I''m going to attach a pic of the stone that made me ask the question in the first place - it looked so nice, but then my heart sank when I saw the flour!

Here are the stats on it:

Price $13127.00
Certificate GIA
Weight 2.82
Shape radiant
Color Canary
Color Depth Light Yellow
Clarity VS2
Measurements 8.57X7.78X4.84
Depth 62.2
Table 62
Girdle thick-v.thick
Culet none
Polish good
Symmetry good
Fluorescence medium

 

[katrina_33]

And here''s the pic. Comments are welcome!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 1/4/2005 1:49:31 AM
Author: katrina_33
Thanks. Interesting. So, to re-cap, even on a fancy light yellow diamond, med flour shouldn''t affect how the stone looks indoors, and may or may not lighten the yellow color when viewed in sunlight?

I''m going to attach a pic of the stone that made me ask the question in the first place - it looked so nice, but then my heart sank when I saw the flour!

Here are the stats on it:

Price $13127.00
Certificate GIA
Weight 2.82
Shape radiant
Color Canary
Color Depth Light Yellow
Clarity VS2
Measurements 8.57X7.78X4.84
Depth 62.2
Table 62
Girdle thick-v.thick
Culet none
Polish good
Symmetry good
Fluorescence medium

IMPORTANT- Someone is telling un-truths. The color "Canary" does not appear on any GIA report- this calls the validity of the entire stone into question- or at the very least, we must assume that GIA has never seen the diamond.

In terms of price- it''s low, but not low enough to make me feel that it''s bogus simply becase the price is totally unrealistic- yet, it is below what I see as current retail- or internet pricing- on an almost 3 carat diamond graded "Fancy Light Yellow" on the GIA report.

Of course anything other than a GIA report on a stone like this is worthless-
To repeat- the stats listed here could not have possibly come from a GIA report.

 

[katrina_33]

The diamond is GIA certified, the cert is up online linked to the page. That info that I pasted wasn''t presented as representing the GIA report since you can view it right there, it was the website''s own synopsis / entry w/ stats (they call all yellow diamonds ''canary diamonds'' on their site - yes, it''s cheesy, I know!). That entry also lists "Light Yellow", and when you view the report it has indeed been graded "Fancy Light Yellow". The vendor is supposed to be a reputable one. I am thinking maybe it''s priced so low because of the flour, which in this case might actually make a visual difference in the appearance of the stone in many lighting conditions.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

I am not an expert--but from the photo (UV lighting) I see a "brown" undertone. Of course I may be deceived by the photography...

cheers--Sharon

 

[valeria101]

The "canary" part is the seller''s comment, no doubt. If any lab uses the word, no idea which - definitely not GIA, AGS, EGL, HRD or IGI.

They might have just added the word inbetween lab stats for some reason and that is done by other sellers all the time (say, WF inserting sarin stats between GIA''s or what not). Once you''ve got a database... why not add some words there

Can you obtain a copy of the lab report ?

If that stone looks like the picture and costs what they say - well, I am impressed. That''s pretty darn yellow !

 

[diamondsbylauren]

It sounds a little strange to me.
Yes, adding Sarin info makes sense- GIA does not currently include such info. But when GIA classifies the color, they are quite specific
How about classifying the color as "Amazingly White" ( GIA actually gave it a D but I think "Amazingly white" sounds better)

Why would a seller do something like that?

THere are other inconsistencies too.
Flourescence must have a qualifying color. Medium "what"?

In any case, it would be good if Katrina could put the link to the GIA report up here to satisfy my curiosity.


I also agree with Kanuk- I definately see a brown tint- that could actually be caused by flourescence.


In any event - if it is actually a legit stone and seller, the price may be reasonable.

 

[katrina_33]

Here''s the cert....let me know what y''all think!

Like I said, I do think the vendor is reputable. I am concerned that the price is a little on the low side because maybe the flour does funky things to this stone that aren''t showing up in the photo...

 

[diamondsbylauren]

OK- Now we''ve cleared that up.
A good looking report in terms of the numbers.

In my opinion, the photos show a stone that looks darker than Fancy Light Yellow due to the medium blue.
As I''ve said, GIA is tougher on FL stones, thereby giving a grade of Fancy Light.
One fact which may explain the price is the prescence of a brownish tint- possibly also caused by the Medium Blue.

For many years these stones were fairly stable in price.
The last 18 months has changed all that. Prices on Fancy Light Yellow, as well as the darker shades- have skyrocketed. That makes gauging the price more difficult nowadays.
I would estimate that, in this case, the Fl is having a pretty large impact on the price.
This might make it a bargain for you.


How do you intend to set this diamond?- the setting wil make a huge difference.

 

[katrina_33]

Date: 1/4/2005 6:41

6 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren

OK- Now we''ve cleared that up.
A good looking report in terms of the numbers.

In my opinion, the photos show a stone that looks darker than Fancy Light Yellow due to the medium blue.
As I''ve said, GIA is tougher on FL stones, thereby giving a grade of Fancy Light.
One fact which may explain the price is the prescence of a brownish tint- possibly also caused by the Medium Blue.

For many years these stones were fairly stable in price.
The last 18 months has changed all that. Prices on Fancy Light Yellow, as well as the darker shades- have skyrocketed. That makes gauging the price more difficult nowadays.

I would estimate that, in this case, the Fl is having a pretty large impact on the price.
This might make it a bargain for you.


How do you intend to set this diamond?- the setting wil make a huge difference.

Thanks for all of your input! It is much apprecaited!

What type of setting would be most suitable for maximizing the appearance of the stone? I would want to set it in a ring with yellow gold prongs on the center, and d color side stones. Kind of the standard FY ring setting!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/4/2005 6:46:28 PM
Author: katrina_33

Kind of the standard FY ring setting!

Well... no need to say "Diamondsbylauren" again on this thread

but this one is from elsewhere and not too standard:
The sides are about half a carat each.

source

How about reena's ring ? There are a couple of close matches with yellow diamonds on show.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 1/4/2005 5:38:32 PM
Author: katrina_33
The diamond is GIA certified, the cert is up online linked to the page. That info that I pasted wasn''t presented as representing the GIA report since you can view it right there, it was the website''s own synopsis / entry w/ stats (they call all yellow diamonds ''canary diamonds'' on their site - yes, it''s cheesy, I know!). That entry also lists ''Light Yellow'', and when you view the report it has indeed been graded ''Fancy Light Yellow''. The vendor is supposed to be a reputable one. I am thinking maybe it''s priced so low because of the flour, which in this case might actually make a visual difference in the appearance of the stone in many lighting conditions.

HI K;

Have you the opportunity to see this stone in person before signing on the dotted line?
P.S. I love fancy yellows!

cheers--Sharon

 

[katrina_33]

If I were to buy this stone, I would either ask to have it sent to an appraiser or someone in my area so I could view it prior to purchase, or they have a return policy that I would clarify for sure in case I needed it!

I''m not going to purchase the stone right now anyhow, but have my eye set on it for an e-ring that will hopefully be purchased in the next couple of months. Hopefully that stone will still be around then.

But if it''s not, I asked the question also as a general one in case the another FLY I end up seriously considering has med blue flour as well.

 

[Jax172]

I have a yellow diamond from that site. Mine is GIA certed as Fancy Yellow and we couldn''t be happier with it. Here is a pic:

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Wow Jax- simply beautiful!

Ditto to Ana- really nice ring! I love the heart shape sides.

Kat- I would say that when you are ready, make sure of the seller''s money back, and that you are comfortable. At that point, I woud suggest having the stone sent to you directly- then once you have it in hand, you can find someone local to take it to and validate the fact that the stone matches the GIA report.

The quality of a fancy color- especially one with medium, or stong blue- is totally in the eyes of the beholder. Some folks seek the characteristics of flourescence in diamonds, other seek to avoid those same charateristics.

That''s why I reccommend looking at a fancy colored diamond yourself before you commit to having it appraised. In this regard, fancy colors are quite different from say, a branded round diamond. It might make perfect sense to send a H&A to a "Dave Atlas" type of guy to approve the purchase. Or Dave Atlas himself.

The phrase to repat here is that my suggestions are based on COMFORT. Make sure you comfortable with the seller.
This goes for people walking into a store, and of course for those buying online, even more.

Check out the seller carefully- of course in this case you''re lucky because other have said good things about the seller. That gives you a good start.


PS- based on what I''ve seen- I''d be happy to offer that stone- it looks good to me.