Do marquise have fire and brilliance?

[thecat]

I know they don't perform as well as rounds. But is it totally no fire and brilliance or 50% of that of rounds? Or what?

 

[ecf8503]

Perhaps Neil will stop by and see this - she loves marquise cuts.

That said, I have a ring with 4 small M's in it, and I don't care for them - they are a bit "mushy", with very little sparkle and next to no fire. Granted they are small, but I guess I expected more from Tiffany. If all M's perform this way then I guess I'm not a fan, as my other shaped stones blow them out of the water.

 

[Niel]

A well cut marquise will have fire and brilliance. Yes. Problem is many are not well cut, particularly in the small, melee size, which is probably why ecf doesn't love hers.

Are you interested in small ones for side stones or as a main stone?

 

[ecf8503]

A well cut marquise will have fire and brilliance. Yes. Problem is many are not well cut, particularly in the small, melee size, which is probably why ecf doesn't love hers.

Yep - I think a lot of the problem is the smaller size. Bigger size = bigger facets = bigger light return.

I'd trust Niel on this one.

 

[cflutist]

As others have said, my marquise diamonds (still have one in a pendant and one in a RHR that I don't wear anymore) don't perform as well as my CBI diamond does. But I think they are still "artistic" and pretty.

Here is a picture of my 1.50 F-VS1 in an old RHR (80s style that I don't wear anymore).
I think that the diamond itself is still pretty and does show dispersion and brilliance.

 

[Niel]

As others have said, my marquise diamonds (still have one in a pendant and one in a RHR that I don't wear anymore) don't perform as well as my CBI diamond does. But I think they are still "artistic" and pretty.

Here is a picture of my 1.50 F-VS1 in an old RHR (80s style that I don't wear anymore).
I think that the diamond itself is still pretty and does show dispersion and brilliance.

Every time you post this then say you never wear it , it breaks my heart

It's so lovely.

 

[MJ_Mac]

I have a gorgeous .82 ct (F colour) marquise set in an e/w platinum setting. It has incredible fire and brilliance. It's well cut and does not have the dreaded bowtie. Mine actually has a combination of flower petal/Maltese cross in the centre which I think is very interesting (it is not dark). I don't compare it to a RMB as they are different flavours of diamonds. I think the majority of people have only seen poorly cut marquise diamonds and/or in dated settings which is too bad because once you see a nice one it will change your opinion. .

I tried getting a picture of mine to show you but it doesn't photograph well (I only have my BlackBerry camera and it doesn't do a very good job with diamonds). I'll have to learn to use my husband's camera with macro lens.

Edited to add: I agree with Niel, love cflustist's marquise ring. It may be an 80's design but it's beautiful.

 

[thecat]

Ecf, Cflutist, Niel, Poodles, thanks for sharing your experience and observations. I saw a E-W set marquise on PS long ago and love the look. I forgot all about it till a link here and there directed me back to her thread recently. So I'm thinking of getting one. I have asked for 3 asets from JA and will be back for advice once I received the images. I find that it's very hard to find a pleasing marquise. I eliminated those with prominent black bow tie in center of stone. Or should I give those a second chance?

Ecf, I saw your Victoria pendant. It's lovely as a piece. It has a very soft look to it. I think some jewelry is worn for performance of stones while some are meant to be appreciated aesthetically, just for the overall look, not necessarily the performance. One of my friend has a black diamond band to create a gothic look with her center stone. Aesthetically pleasing but we all know that black diamonds aren't as firey as well cut whites.

Cflutist, your marquise is bright and seems to have much sparkle throughout the stone. Why not reset it so that you get to enjoy a different flavor once in a while? It's too pretty to be locked away.

 

[drk14]

thecat,
To answer your question -- definitely yes, if you find a good marquise!

My fiancee's mq has amazing scintillation and noticable fire, especially under spotlight lighting. Very mesmerizing to look at.

Here is a link to the JA video of the mq I purchased for her, and some more information about the stone and the ring is available in my SMTB thread.

I have asked for 3 asets from JA and will be back for advice once I received the images

I might advise you, if it's not too late, to cancel/postpone those ASET requests. It is difficult to find well-cut marquise diamonds, so you don't want to waste any of your ASETs on any that don't have potential (assuming JA still has a policy of only allowing 3 ASETs per customer). Niel (and others) can help you vet candidates on JA before you request ASETs. In my estimate, typically only ~1 in 10 marquise are worth looking at further.

Good luck!

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree that marquise diamonds can indeed have great brilliance and fire.
Also that mq stones smaller than about .40cts are rarely good at expressing the marquise personality.
Personality is one aspect which I've found to be very taste based.
For exampe, shape. The "classic" LxW ratio is 2:1
Having said that I've seen longer and fatter stones that were also well cut and brilliant.
But that aspect is really up to the individual.
Bow tie is another aspect up to personal taste. Sometimes a marquise modified brilliant can entirely avoid bow tie. But sometimes marquise brilliant can have a bow tie that can actually add contrast and brightness.
I'm also a fan of Cheryl's marquee - it does seem to show the type of light performance I associate with a "good bow tie"
In general a bow tie that has static dark areas is undesirable.

 

[thecat]

thecat,
To answer your question -- definitely yes, if you find a good marquise!

My fiancee's mq has amazing scintillation and noticable fire, especially under spotlight lighting. Very mesmerizing to look at.

Here is a link to the JA video of the mq I purchased for her, and some more information about the stone and the ring is available in my SMTB thread.

I have asked for 3 asets from JA and will be back for advice once I received the images

I might advise you, if it's not too late, to cancel/postpone those ASET requests. It is difficult to find well-cut marquise diamonds, so you don't want to waste any of your ASETs on any that don't have potential (assuming JA still has a policy of only allowing 3 ASETs per customer). Niel (and others) can help you vet candidates on JA before you request ASETs. In my estimate, typically only ~1 in 10 marquise are worth looking at further.

Good luck!

Drk, thanks for sharing your experience and advice. I will ask for help on forum first before asking for asets.

I admired your fiancée's ering when you first posted it. I love the romantic look and intricate setting. I didn't realise that a marquise can have a table as small as yours till you posted your JA link. I am sure that contributed to fire. I hope those that I selected are as nice too.

 

[thecat]

I agree that marquise diamonds can indeed have great brilliance and fire.
Also that mq stones smaller than about .40cts are rarely good at expressing the marquise personality.
Personality is one aspect which I've found to be very taste based.
For exampe, shape. The "classic" LxW ratio is 2:1
Having said that I've seen longer and fatter stones that were also well cut and brilliant.
But that aspect is really up to the individual.
Bow tie is another aspect up to personal taste. Sometimes a marquise modified brilliant can entirely avoid bow tie. But sometimes marquise brilliant can have a bow tie that can actually add contrast and brightness.
I'm also a fan of Cheryl's marquee - it does seem to show the type of light performance I associate with a "good bow tie"
In general a bow tie that has static dark areas is undesirable.

Thanks for sharing your observations, Rockdiamond. You've got me curious. Who is this Cheryl with a nice marquise? Can you please share her full name so that I can go Google? Celebrity, perhaps?

 

[Niel]

I agree that marquise diamonds can indeed have great brilliance and fire.
Also that mq stones smaller than about .40cts are rarely good at expressing the marquise personality.
Personality is one aspect which I've found to be very taste based.
For exampe, shape. The "classic" LxW ratio is 2:1
Having said that I've seen longer and fatter stones that were also well cut and brilliant.
But that aspect is really up to the individual.
Bow tie is another aspect up to personal taste. Sometimes a marquise modified brilliant can entirely avoid bow tie. But sometimes marquise brilliant can have a bow tie that can actually add contrast and brightness.
I'm also a fan of Cheryl's marquee - it does seem to show the type of light performance I associate with a "good bow tie"
In general a bow tie that has static dark areas is undesirable.

Thanks for sharing your observations, Rockdiamond. You've got me curious. Who is this Cheryl with a nice marquise? Can you please share her full name so that I can go Google? Celebrity, perhaps?

I believe he's talking about cflutist's

 

[thecat]

I agree that marquise diamonds can indeed have great brilliance and fire.
Also that mq stones smaller than about .40cts are rarely good at expressing the marquise personality.
Personality is one aspect which I've found to be very taste based.
For exampe, shape. The "classic" LxW ratio is 2:1
Having said that I've seen longer and fatter stones that were also well cut and brilliant.
But that aspect is really up to the individual.
Bow tie is another aspect up to personal taste. Sometimes a marquise modified brilliant can entirely avoid bow tie. But sometimes marquise brilliant can have a bow tie that can actually add contrast and brightness.
I'm also a fan of Cheryl's marquee - it does seem to show the type of light performance I associate with a "good bow tie"
In general a bow tie that has static dark areas is undesirable.

Thanks for sharing your observations, Rockdiamond. You've got me curious. Who is this Cheryl with a nice marquise? Can you please share her full name so that I can go Google? Celebrity, perhaps?

I believe he's talking about cflutist's

Thanks, Niel. I really must frequent PS more. Cflutist's marquise is indeed very lovely and bright and sparkly.

 

[therainbowradish]

Here is a video of my 3.15 carat antiquse marquise (faces up like 4.5-5 carats though). It is Y color and doesn't have much bowtie but is shallow. I still think it is retina blinding. It does not have the large kaleidoscope flashes that I am used to with my OEC though it is still charming.

https://youtu.be/R9WHuHK8DGk

 

[D_]

@cflutist Holy! That ring is gorgeous!

@rainbowradish I don't really understand marquise, but if the difference in the face up size is that significant, that means it's much shallower than it is supposed to be? But it looks so sparkly! Makes me wonder how a really well-cut marquise look like...
(Is that the one you had David Klass make not too long ago? Stunning!)

 

[therainbowradish]

Yes it is 53% depth but I know RockDiamond has mentioned that shallow depth in fancies can still result in crazy fire. I believe mine is an example? It is the David Klass ring but is back with him for a bezel reset.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Most marquise (except those cut in crushed ice style for fancy color enhancement) exhibit two types of cut.
Crushed ice at the tips, which in +2ct stones can exhibit fire, and in 10ct look truly amazing. Othewise its a brightness effect.
In the center of the stone there is most likely to be fire from the larger facets which can be brilliant or alternating with a dark bright bowtie.
So Marquise are rather like a cross between crushed ice and round / cushion cuts.

Marquise tend to have a much larger spread - usually around 20% more than the same weight round diamond. So even if 20% of th stone is not returning as much light they can be really good value for people looking for a lot of bling.

There are half moon style lower girdle facet styles that when our industry grows up and 'decommoditizes' will become available. Don't ask me when because I will say 10 years ago, but I would be wrong

 

[thecat]

Most marquise (except those cut in crushed ice style for fancy color enhancement) exhibit two types of cut.
Crushed ice at the tips, which in +2ct stones can exhibit fire, and in 10ct look truly amazing. Othewise its a brightness effect.
In the center of the stone there is most likely to be fire from the larger facets which can be brilliant or alternating with a dark bright bowtie.
So Marquise are rather like a cross between crushed ice and round / cushion cuts.

Marquise tend to have a much larger spread - usually around 20% more than the same weight round diamond. So even if 20% of th stone is not returning as much light they can be really good value for people looking for a lot of bling.

There are half moon style lower girdle facet styles that when our industry grows up and 'decommoditizes' will become available. Don't ask me when because I will say 10 years ago, but I would be wrong

Thanks for the sharing, Garry Do you have an example of the half moon type of marquise? I'd like to see if I like that flavor.

 

[thecat]

Here is a video of my 3.15 carat antiquse marquise (faces up like 4.5-5 carats though). It is Y color and doesn't have much bowtie but is shallow. I still think it is retina blinding. It does not have the large kaleidoscope flashes that I am used to with my OEC though it is still charming.

https://youtu.be/R9WHuHK8DGk

Wow, I the big flashes of your marquise.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The extra set of facets just under the girdle - are the half moon facets.
This is an old DiamCalc model - better versions would be able to be created.

I have never seen one actually polished.

 

[thecat]

The extra set of facets just under the girdle - are the half moon facets.
This is an old DiamCalc model - better versions would be able to be created.

I have never seen one actually polished.

I like the amount of red in it. Too bad that they never got around to it.

 

[Serg]

http://cutwise.com/share/6_HPD Marquise Summer 2015?format=video8Fire
http://cutwise.com/stone/6_HPD Marquise Summer 2015?format=video8Fire

 

[chrono]

Wow....what a marquise! Thanks for the pictures, Serg.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting point about different types of light performance in the center and at the tips. This is an aspect of many different cuts that are elongated in shape- ovals and rectangular radiant cuts come to mind.
I think a general assumption might be that stones with different sparkle at the ends and middle are a detriment.
In fact a detrimental bow tie is exactly that. Bright sparkle at the tips, dark in the center.
But stones like cflutists manage to be extremely well cut and still have different light performance in the middle and at the ends.

Large concentrations of Red in the ASET can be a tipoff to the bad type of bow tie in elongated stones.
This is just one example of how ASET interpretation based on the current AGSL " red is best" is way off base for fancy shapes.

 

[drk14]

Most marquise (except those cut in crushed ice style for fancy color enhancement) exhibit two types of cut.
Crushed ice at the tips, which in +2ct stones can exhibit fire, and in 10ct look truly amazing. Othewise its a brightness effect.
In the center of the stone there is most likely to be fire from the larger facets which can be brilliant or alternating with a dark bright bowtie.
So Marquise are rather like a cross between crushed ice and round / cushion cuts.

Garry,
I'm going to take exception with the statement above, especially the bolded parts. This statement may technically be correct, because you qualified it by saying it applies to "most" marquise. In my opinion, most (~90%) marquise diamonds on the market are not pleasingly cut (unless you are a crushed ice afficionado), with the largest problem being this hybrid appearance that you describe: chunkier facets in the belly, and tiny chaotic virtual facets on either side of the belly, extending to the points.

However, if one takes the time to search, there are ~10% of marquise that do not have this type of appearance. Because these atypical marquise are exactly those I (and others here, I presume) would recommend, your quoted statements are misleading -- they do not apply to what I would consider a well-cut marquise.

It is relatively easy to find marquise (and other elongated shapes) that have chunkier VFs both in the belly and at the points, whereas the region between the points and the belly often have issues of lacking scintillation from larger VFs (or having a "crushed-ice" effect). Given a sufficiently large inventory, however, one can find a subset of marquise in which this intermediate region (between the points and the belly) consist of a superposition of larger and smaller VFs, so that it is indeed possible to get on/off-type scintillation from chunkier VFs throughout the body of the marquise. However, these (IMO well-cut) marquise are rare, and require some work to find.

Just my two cents, which I wanted to add here to prevent any unintended over-generalization from dissuading readers who may be considering marquise and similar fancy shapes (especially at <2 ct). To put it plainly, one does not have to be a "crushed ice"-lover to love a marquise.

 

[D_]

Garry,
I'm going to take exception with the statement above, especially the bolded parts. This statement may technically be correct, because you qualified it by saying it applies to "most" marquise. In my opinion, most (~90%) marquise diamonds on the market are not pleasingly cut (unless you are a crushed ice afficionado), with the largest problem being this hybrid appearance that you describe: chunkier facets in the belly, and tiny chaotic virtual facets on either side of the belly, extending to the points.

However, if one takes the time to search, there are ~10% of marquise that do not have this type of appearance. Because these atypical marquise are exactly those I (and others here, I presume) would recommend, your quoted statements are misleading -- they do not apply to what I would consider a well-cut marquise.

It is relatively easy to find marquise (and other elongated shapes) that have chunkier VFs both in the belly and at the points, whereas the region between the points and the belly often have issues of lacking scintillation from larger VFs (or having a "crushed-ice" effect). Given a sufficiently large inventory, however, one can find a subset of marquise in which this intermediate region (between the points and the belly) consist of a superposition of larger and smaller VFs, so that it is indeed possible to get on/off-type scintillation from chunkier VFs throughout the body of the marquise. However, these (IMO well-cut) marquise are rare, and require some work to find.

Just my two cents, which I wanted to add here to prevent any unintended over-generalization from dissuading readers who may be considering marquise and similar fancy shapes (especially at <2 ct). To put it plainly, one does not have to be a "crushed ice"-lover to love a marquise.

So... does that mean it's widely understood that marquise with crushed ice look at the tip means it's not well cut, or is it just a matter of preference?

 

[drk14]

So... does that mean it's widely understood that marquise with crushed ice look at the tip means it's not well cut, or is it just a matter of preference?

I would say it's a matter of preference, just like the "crushed ice" look (not a very well-defined term, btw) itself is a matter of preference. Perhaps it's relatively safe to say that an individual who doesn't care for "crushed ice" would not consider a marquise with crushed-ice at the points (tips) to be well cut. The converse isn't necessarily true, though! (i.e., someone who doesn't like a marquise that has a hybrid chunky & crushed ice appearance may still enjoy a diamond that is 100% crushed ice).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Drk- although I agree that well cut marquise are rare, I would not base a market opinion on stones one can see online.
Many stones are not listed on virtual sites.
Of the virtual sites that do show photos the ratio of pretty stones gets smaller and smaller over time. The ugly ones are pretty much unsaleable if there is a picture. Nice ones get snapped up.
In terms of the tips- there's no way I've seen to eliminate the small VF's one might associate with "crushed ice".
The shape and placement of the facets won't allow larger VF's at the tips.
You mentioned you'd seen mq stones with chunky facets at the tips- maybe we're thinking of different things?

 

[drk14]

http://cutwise.com/share/6_HPD Marquise Summer 2015?format=video8Fire
http://cutwise.com/stone/6_HPD Marquise Summer 2015?format=video8Fire

Serg,
These movies are amazing (and very clearly illustrate the performance of a well-cut marquise)!

Are they simulations based on scan data? Is this example a real diamond or a numerical experiment?