Diamond trade offs

[optimizedlife]

I'm starting to poke around at what a good diamond for an engagement ring would be. I'm not imminently buying but it's likely not far off and I need to know what to search for. I've been researching a ton, reading everything I can on this site, but still feel I need to ask this question. And maybe the answer is simply "look at a bunch in real life"...I don't know. My budget is rough but I'd like to find a diamond for under $18k since the setting is turning out to be more than I thought

I'm continuing to read the forums/etc so if this is redundant, please let me know.

This is the likely setting, which can accomodate up to 2cw at extra cost they say. I'd like to 'try' to get the setting/diamond at the same vendor for convenience.... http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/tension/platinum-spiral-tension-set-engagement-ring-item-2039

Parameters:

• Size of 1.4+ is mandatory. 1.5 is probably a good compromise, but 1.6+ would be a nice bonus if it fits in budget
  Fire/brilliance as high as possible, AGS0, HCA below something...probably 2? Although I know AGS0 means HCA isn't as important
  Colour needs to not be distinguishable as yellowish in normal circumstances or in that setting
  Eye clean...no black spots noticable (drives me nuts, would drive her nuts). Wisps/etc if eye visible would be annoying too. Does eye clean mean ZERO things visible with eye or is it a 'guide'?

I was looking along AGS0, F,VS1/2 which was pushing me towards a 1.3, but I'm swaying towards AGS0,H,VS2/SI1 and putting the extra into size and maybe even go to 1.6 or 1.7. For max fire/brilliance/size with a colour that isn't really noticable and eye clean, that seems to be the recommended route. Is that analysis correct? Any point in going from H to G?

A possible example of a stretch this would enable would be these:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamond/071a15d56b439b87c1567185bd31df11
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075972.htm
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3055785.htm
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.66-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-178776 <-- I

And a bit less of a stretch:
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.53-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-125571

 

[optimizedlife]

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.63-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-287838

This one also seems fine and nice and clean. Would an "I" colour have issues with side viewing with that setting?

 

[teobdl]

All are nice. My two favorites are
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075972.htm
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.53-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-125571

 

[optimizedlife]

Thanks! So it seems I'm on the right track, and H/I aren't a killer issue for a ring this size with full side view in a mount like that? The SI1 kind of tweaks my OCD a bit and seeing those lines/occlusions in it irk me, but if they aren't visible to the eye then I guess it doesn't matter right?

 

[proto]

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3016703.htm

1.7ct

 

[optimizedlife]

Thanks proto! That's a nice diamond. Is there a point in caring about the fact that it's not perfectly optically symmetrical? ie. enough to qualify for their 'a cut above' status? Is that simply a 'when looking in a loupe, you see nice perfect lines/symmetry' thing only?

 

[teobdl]

I think the eye color issue is really dependent on the person. You can actually see a previously made I colored diamond in that setting if you click on the leftmost small images there. This is absolutely the most revealing setting, so just know your own/the wearers tolerance for color.

 

[proto]

not sure why it missed ACA.

my best guess would be because its 62.5 depth rather than the limit of 62.4, but im not 100% sure on where/why some are expert and others are ACA.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Here is a great option (AGS0 - Ideal, Lifetime Guarantee, HCA of 1.1), at almost $2k less than one of the Whiteflash stones:

1.71ct, H, SI1
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12011/

 

[SirGuy]

I think you're on the right track. You seem to have a good appreciation for how the different C's balance each other, and how that affects price.

I think the color is the one to be wary of here, regarding how sensitive she is to it. Inclusions are important too, but I agree with you; if you can't see it, is it there?

I prefer superb cuts (the top end GIA excellent and AGS0s) as good cut and subsequent light performance can help with slightly lower color.

A slighter smaller stone can look bigger with good cut.

Many find it useful to consider a stone's size, and not just its weight.

Consider these two stones: a .66 carat and a .33 carat. One is double the weight, right? But the size difference might be far less than you'd think. The 1/3 carat stone might be around 4.4mm, and the 2/3 carat stone around 5.5mm. In that case, the stone that's half the weight is still 80% the spread.

So even though 1.6 might sound like a lot bigger than 1.5, the actual face up spread difference might not be too noticeable. Especially when considering a possible compromise of cut or color to get there.

Food for thought!

 

[optimizedlife]

Sirguy, all great points, thanks! So would you suggest looking at colours in person to try to judge how much they matter? I'm fine going to a 1.5 and 2 colour grades higher as I agree the surface area diff b/t a 1.5 and 1.6 is pretty small. 1.7 is starting to get a bit more though. I'm unsure if I'd really be able to notice the diff b/t an F and an H...and if I did, would it matter? A bit of tinge EVEN if detectable wouldn't be the en of the world, she might want size as an exchange.

 

[optimizedlife]

Rocky, that's a great stone. Does one need to have concern buying from what I perceive to be a smaller online shop?

 

[SirGuy]

I'm unsure if I'd really be able to notice the diff b/t an F and an H...and if I did, would it matter? A bit of tinge EVEN if detectable wouldn't be the en of the world, she might want size as an exchange.

That, my friend, is something only you and she knows!

For color, D, E, and F are considered "colorless." But it's all a range, and each color has its own range within. A great H can hold its own with a weak G.

Could you tell the difference between an F and an H? Probably, if they were both right in front of you. But if you were only looking at the H, it's suddenly far trickier! That's where good cut and clarity help. A properly proportioned stone, with few inclusions, will dazzle as an H more than a poorly cut F.

And think about this: the bigger the stone; the more noticeable its flaws.

You're at the Louvre. You see two gorgeous canvasses by Caravaggio. The first is a petite 11"x14". The latter is an impressive 17"x26".

Which is the better painting?

Why, the one that's painted more superbly, of course.

The whole point of a diamond is to reflect and refract light. Cut, lack of color, and few inclusions to interfere with the light waves accomplish this.

A larger stone that compromises the other C's is simply more obvious in its flaws.

A good diamond will dazzle the eye in a way few gemstones can. A fist-sized quartz is big, but dull and lifeless.

Cut is king. Trust your instincts when you see one in person. I'd bet the one that honestly dazzles you most is the one that's cut the best.

 

[optimizedlife]

If I were buying now, and can suck up going "I", I think this would be my choice.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.63-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-287838

Do I appear to be going down the right road with my choices?

 

[SirGuy]

I think so! It's all a compromise. Is she particularly color sensitive?

By that I don't mean is she able to detect color differences. Most people can do that.

By color sensitive, I mean, does it bother her?

This one caught my eye:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3055785.htm#

 

[optimizedlife]

I have no idea if it bothers her. She's made no secret that size and fire/flash are what she cares about. I guess it's a concern only if she starts directly comparing against others...or if the *I* colour is particularly visible from the side in that particular mount.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Rocky, that's a great stone. Does one need to have concern buying from what I perceive to be a smaller online shop?

Despite what it might seem, GOG is not a smaller online shop! They have a significant presence here on Pricescope and they also have a storefront in NY.

I have purchased from them without issue, as have many other posters here. They also have one of the best trade-up policies in the business.

In addition, they can make a video of the stone I mentioned along with another in the same price range, so you can do a compare-and-contrast with your own eyes.

I can recommend GOG without reservation.

Best of luck!

 

[metatrix]

I have no idea if it bothers her. She's made no secret that size and fire/flash are what she cares about. I guess it's a concern only if she starts directly comparing against others...or if the *I* colour is particularly visible from the side in that particular mount.

I think you should take her into a store and look at mounted stones of different colours side by side. That is the only way you will know how colour sensitive she is. Just make sure the stones are GIA graded. And try to pick a store that has normal lighting rather than crazy jewellery store lighting. When I was critically examining stones side by side for colour, I actually asked the jeweller to turn off all his spot lights, and then plugged in a lamp I brought to the store with me and looked at the stones under that.

Btw, I ended up with an eye clean SI2 at 3 ct. So it *is* possible to find eye clean SI2s even in larger stones if you look hard enough. And you will save a ton of money going down in clarity grades, especially in larger stones.

 

[TC1987]

If she's at all color sensitive, I think you'll have to stop at G or maybe H. I never used to see any tint in my I-color diamond, but I see it now. Tint is one of the things that you'll start to discern with a little study. If she's ever worn cubic zirconia, she was wearing the equivalent of a D color diamond, and I or J looks a lot different from a D colorless. I see warmth in my AGS-graded F. As diamonds get larger, their increased mass concentrates tint even more. What I found was that if I go up any higher than the diamond(s) I now own, I will also have to go up a grade or possibly two in color to keep the same white-ness.

Maybe also look at the Brian Gavin Blue line, if you are considering G/ H/ I colors. Blue fluorescence acts like a whitener, (like laundry bluing, haha) when there is UV light present.

 

[metatrix]

TC...how long was it before the tint became noticeable to you? Just curious.

 

[teobdl]

G in that size is safe. H is probably safe. I is pushing it, and it depends on her and the specific diamond. If it helps, Tiffany goes down to I color diamonds.

 

[msop04]

OP, since the setting you are using will show the stone at all sides, I would hesitate to go below H. Usually, I would say "heck yeah, go with the I color", but not with that type of setting. Speaking of the setting... is that specifically what your FF picked out? The reason I ask is because it's one of those "love it or hate it" things...

 

[msop04]

What about this one? It's gorgeous!!
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-dia...-h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-328385 HCA 1.7 $17,540

This one comes in at 8 mm!!
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-dia...-h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-294416 HCA 0.8 $17,770

Couldn't calculate HCA on this one, but it may be nice -- and 1.91 ct!
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.91-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-302754 $18,280

 

[optimizedlife]

msop044: I found that setting, showed her knowing she'd love it, and indeed she adores it, it's her favourite now.

teo/TC/meta/Rocky: Thanks for all the thoughts. I may end up just springing the extra cost to go G just to 'ensure' a bit better colour, I'll see once the time comes to actually buy something. Knowing the parameters to look for right now lets me feel secure that when I need to, finding something won't be too tough.

I know I am very sensitive to colour..I nail tests like this 100% every time...so maybe 'me' going and looking is a first step so I can see how much I can notice

I'm now thinking Ideally I'd like to keep my diamond cost below $16k USD since that mount is so expensive. My total top level budget was $19k, and going with an 18k stone and a 4k ring + taxes/etc puts me up around $25k. Oh the choices!

 

[optimizedlife]

BTW she seems to be pretty happy with the 1.5-1.6 range now upon looking at diamonds in person on the weekend. She thinks 2cw will look cartoonishly large on her finger, which I tend to agree with. Going 1.6 and high flash trumps 1.8 and medium flash.

 

[optimizedlife]

By nail tests like this, I meant to post a link to an online test where you take many hues/shades and order them by tint.

Question..I've been so stuck on AGS0 since it's "guaranteed" max fire/brilliance, but I guess a GIA w/ a good HCA that falls into the AGS0 box would be functionally equivalent yes?

 

[metatrix]

By nail tests like this, I meant to post a link to an online test where you take many hues/shades and order them by tint.

Question..I've been so stuck on AGS0 since it's "guaranteed" max fire/brilliance, but I guess a GIA w/ a good HCA that falls into the AGS0 box would be functionally equivalent yes?

Provided the girdle is even, diamond is transparent, and there is not too much asymmetry or variation in facet proportions, yes. And especially if you have an idealscope and ASET image of the diamond to confirm good light performance. I have seen GIA excellent stones that looked better under the scopes (and to the eye) than AGS0 stones.

AGS stones are not as easy to find as GIA stones, so you do limit yourself by sticking to them, especially in larger carat sizes. And I have heard that GIA stones are easier to resell.

 

[optimizedlife]

Thanks!

Thing about buying online is I can't see the diamond with a scope/etc before I get it...which makes finding an AGS0 feel less risky to me. It's all pre-vetted...and I know I'm going to pay a premium for that since they are more rare. Although in theory the JamesAllen guys say you get to your top three, they then have a gemologist examine them for your specific concerns...I might be OK with that.

I think I'm tightening in on the 'risk free' way of doing things by aiming for a 1.50-1.55 G VS1/VS2. The H/I feels too sketchy to me...I don't want her to start noticing a tint in it...but you know what, I'm going to ask her about colour and just get an answer. She loves yellow diamonds .....but I do want to get a few in person at a local store to compare for colour...and well, I guess SI1 is OK if it's eye clean and looks OK on the table in something like JamesAllen 'videos'...just 'knowing' there is a big black carbon nodule in there would irk my OCD I think

 

[msop04]

I found that setting, showed her knowing she'd love it, and indeed she adores it, it's her favourite now.

GREAT!! It's wonderful to know she'll love it with no worries!

I think I'm tightening in on the 'risk free' way of doing things by aiming for a 1.50-1.55 G VS1/VS1. The H/I feels too sketchy to me...I don't want her to start noticing a tint in it...but you know what, I'm going to ask her about colour and just get an answer. She loves yellow diamonds .....but I do want to get a few in person at a local store to compare for colour...and well, I guess SI1 is OK if it's eye clean and looks OK on the table in something like JamesAllen 'videos'...just 'knowing' there is a big black carbon nodule in there would irk my OCD I think

Although I agree that >I is certainly the way to go, I think VS1 is total overkill... VS2 is the "safe bet"... and any eye clean SI will just save money (and, honestly, who doesn't like that?? ) If you're worried at all about H color, then stick with G, but VS1 clarity is just wasting money. If all you desire is for it to be completely eye clean, VS2/SI will do the job nicely. FWIW, an SI with a "big black carbon nodule" would not be "eye clean" -- so you don't have to worry about your OCD flaring.

 

[RockyRacoon]

Thanks!

Thing about buying online is I can't see the diamond with a scope/etc before I get it...which makes finding an AGS0 feel less risky to me. It's all pre-vetted...and I know I'm going to pay a premium for that since they are more rare. Although in theory the JamesAllen guys say you get to your top three, they then have a gemologist examine them for your specific concerns...I might be OK with that.

I think I'm tightening in on the 'risk free' way of doing things by aiming for a 1.50-1.55 G VS1/VS2. The H/I feels too sketchy to me...I don't want her to start noticing a tint in it...but you know what, I'm going to ask her about colour and just get an answer. She loves yellow diamonds .....but I do want to get a few in person at a local store to compare for colour...and well, I guess SI1 is OK if it's eye clean and looks OK on the table in something like JamesAllen 'videos'...just 'knowing' there is a big black carbon nodule in there would irk my OCD I think

Here is a solid stone in that range:
1.508ct, G, VS2
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.508-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104060710013

If you like more of the 60/60 stone (you can read about 60/60 stones here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond ), check out this one:
1.5ct, G, VS2
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11675/