Diamond Fell Out with Platinum Prongs

[diamondsbylauren]

GREAT post Neil!

All very very good points.
A lot of people reading this may have 4 prong settings- Let''s be VERY clear- Perry''s loose use of stats is extremely misleading.

To those of you out there with 4 prong settings- or any type of setting for a diamond:
Visually inspect your ring on a regular basis.
Tap it gently on a hard surface to see it any of the stones rattle.
Periodically take it to a professional for a more thourough examination.


Neil pointed out a few of the more dangerous type of settings:
1) Poor craftsmanship
2) Princess cut, especially those with sharp corners.
3) Emeralds, Opals, Tanzanite and other fragile stones.
4) Anything containing invisible settings
5) Extremely thin girdles-

If you have a ring that sounds like one of the above, make the inspections more frequent.


Neil also pointed out an important point about platinum- it may not be harder to bend- but it wears much longer.
Stuill, although it seems unlikely to be able to bend a prong in your poclet- that''s really a very unsafe way to carry any ring.

 

[Bagpuss]

I found this site which goes through all the problems you may experience with poorly made prongs - makes for interesting reading.

http://jewelry.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=jewelry&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.professionaljeweler.com%2Farchives%2Farticles%2F1998%2Ffeb98%2F0298fql.html

 

[MissAva]

Very kool article Bagpuss!

 

[Bagpuss]

Thanks

It just shows that even with platinum prongs, there are many things that can still go wrong.

 

[DiamanteBlu]

Thanks for the article, Bagpuss. Also, if the prongs are stressed it can get ugly. Here''s another:
http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/2004/jun04/0604pb2.html

 

[Bagpuss]

Here''s yet another article about setting safety (scroll halfway down the page to their RING DURABILITY AND DELICACY A-F RATING SYSTEM)

http://www.crossjewelers.com/dia/wcg/default.htm

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Very interesting article!

 

[AmantdeChat]

Thanks Bagpuss!!

I will definitely use the "wrong" way to set a prong from your first link to compare to my ring when I get it back. Good articles.

 

[MissAva]

So far what I am getting from this is that Platnium prongs are the better choice and that you need a good bench jeweler to work with right from the start.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Yes Matatora- that is good advice.

 

[perry]

David:

I find it interesting that you feel my claim is missleading, but when RocDoc presents the same information comming from some seminar he attended you do not challange it.

Of course, Fire & Ice may have a valid point - that most diamonds are set in 4 prong settings which may explain the statistic.

Perry

 

[windy1365]

I dropped my platinum set ring in the sink twice while cleaning it - from about a foot distance. It caused my center stone to become loose in the setting. I could hear it rattle when I moved my hand. So - the fall to the cement possibly could have caused the stone to come loose in your case.

My prong was not bent, though - at least not visibly.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 8/2/2005 1:41:01 AM
Author: RockDoc
Hi David

Because there are so many more round stones than fancy shapes, the statistics really are more resultant of data from round stone insurance claims.

The statistics I mentioned were a cross section study of claims where diamonds were lost. It is the data from one insurance company, but a MAJOR one.

There is a central insurance claims informational database, but the info is only available to its insurance company members, although I am trying to get some input from jewelry loss adjuster acquaintances.

I am certain that the cause was poor setting workmanship as you allude to. However, it appears that people notice a loose stone in a 6 prong and get it fixed before the stone falls out. Because it takes less prongs to be loose to get a stone out of its setting in a 4 prong, it appears there isn''t enough ''warning notice''.


Another statistic of a lost stone many time may be caused by retipping, when the setting should actually have been replaced. If a tip breaks and is merely repaired with a piece of gold wire soldered to the tip of the broken or missing prong, that is sort of risky at best.

Being in NY I am sure you''ve seen really horrid setting work.

One of my mentors there in my early years in the biz used to import a lot of items from Asia I think they were made in Bangkok). The stones were set, but not well. So he had each piece gone over and ''fixed'' by a good setter on the street to prevent future problems. .

I commonly see work where you''d swear the setter didn''t have hands and set the stone using his feet.

I really think the key and salient issue is pride in workmanship.

Rockdoc

Perry- If you look at Rockdoc''s response, it is quite measured.
I disagree with a few of his points.
There''s mention of an insurance company study, and well, I am not a big fan of insurance company studies- they ALWAYS seem to cost the consumer money.

He sums it up by saying what I''ve been saying all along-

I really think the key and salient issue is pride in workmanship

I take this to mean that if the setter is competant and takes pride in thier work, four prongs is fine.

For example- look at a four prong emerald cut lucida style setting, if it''s well done- the diamond is held extrmely securely in four prongs.
The thickness of the shank, the type of prongs used- and the examples posted about the seat- the condition of the prongs- there''s simply so much more to consider than simply getting 4 or 6 prongs.

Perry- I feel quite sure that if a client asked Rockdoc about buying a well done 4 prong Vatchi ( for example) setting, he could heartily reccomend it.

The reason the bold lettered statement you posted bothered me is because it''s simply giving a very limited perspective based on a statistic. A statistic which we know little about.
Were these "3 out of four" rings in good condition?- what metal were they?- what was the price range of the rings or the quality of the rings in quiestion?

As a matter of fact, lets look at "statisitics" of "diamonds sold"
It''s likely that for every high quality 4 prong ring sold by a pricescope vendor, there are 500 cheapos sold in malls- remember- an awful lot of people buy a .25 for $299 in Bales or Zaley Zanks and Zizzile or whatever-
I''d venture to say that it''s likely that the PS members who lost their stones - from 4 prong rings- I''ll bet none of those rings was sold by a PS vendor- or any seller of high qual;ity jewelry.

I''m sorry if you felt I spoke to strongly about your statements- Of course you can say whatever you liike!

I just think a more balanced approach is realistic.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 8/2/2005 11:42:12 PM
Author: windy1365
I dropped my platinum set ring in the sink twice while cleaning it - from about a foot distance. It caused my center stone to become loose in the setting. I could hear it rattle when I moved my hand. So - the fall to the cement possibly could have caused the stone to come loose in your case.

My prong was not bent, though - at least not visibly.

Windy, what kind of setting do you have?
IN some cases, you can loosen a stone simply by bending the bottom of the ring.
If you look at your ring from the side- is it out of round?

 

[cflutist]

Date: 8/3/2005 1:33:45 AM
Author: diamondsbylauren
The thickness of the shank, the type of prongs used- and the examples posted about the seat- the condition of the prongs- there''s simply so much more to consider than simply getting 4 or 6 prongs.

I''d venture to say that it''s likely that the PS members who lost their stones - from 4 prong rings- I''ll bet none of those rings was sold by a PS vendor- or any seller of high qual;ity jewelry.

DBL, true, the 2.05ct D-VS2 oval diamond that fell out of my 4 prong mounting was not sold to me by a PS vendor. However the place I got it from at the time does manufacture "high quality jewelry". It was not a question of workmanship or the condition of the prongs (the stone was nice and tight in there), but rather an accident when someone slammed a door on my hand, bending one of the prongs, that caused my diamond to fall to the floor. IMO, had it been one of 6 prongs, I don''t think I would have had to sit through 3 hours of orchestra rehearsal with a diamond in my pants pocket.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Date: 8/3/2005 6:39:08 AM
Author: cflutist

Date: 8/3/2005 1:33:45 AM
Author: diamondsbylauren
The thickness of the shank, the type of prongs used- and the examples posted about the seat- the condition of the prongs- there''s simply so much more to consider than simply getting 4 or 6 prongs.

I''d venture to say that it''s likely that the PS members who lost their stones - from 4 prong rings- I''ll bet none of those rings was sold by a PS vendor- or any seller of high qual;ity jewelry.

DBL, true, the 2.05ct D-VS2 oval diamond that fell out of my 4 prong mounting was not sold to me by a PS vendor. However the place I got it from at the time does manufacture ''high quality jewelry''. It was not a question of workmanship or the condition of the prongs (the stone was nice and tight in there), but rather an accident when someone slammed a door on my hand, bending one of the prongs, that caused my diamond to fall to the floor. IMO, had it been one of 6 prongs, I don''t think I would have had to sit through 3 hours of orchestra rehearsal with a diamond in my pants pocket.

PERFECT example Cflutist!!!
Can we say for sure that the diamond would NOT have fallen out in such an impact- even with 6 prongs? NO.
Did the fact that the ring had 4 prongs have anything to do with the diamond falling out? NO- the reason the diamodn fell out was a strong impact to the ring.
A good piece of advice: Anytime someone slams their diamonmd ring in a door- 4 or 6 prong ring- carefully inspect it.

Cflutiust- thank God your hand was not hurt!!!! And I imagine sitting on a diamond for a few hours might be painful...heheheh
If you are more secure- with peace of mind, by all means- have your oval re-set into 6 prongs.


Look- how could any intelligent person NOT realize that more prongs is safer?
I will admit that it''s harder to pull a diamond out of a 6 prong head vs a 4.

Here''s a good analogy- Would we all agree that wearing a crash helmet would make our cars safer? Of course it would!
Yet it''s generally agreed that wearing a seatbelt is sufficient.
4 prongs vs 6 is a similar question.
A well done 4 prong setting is MORE than sufficient in terms of safety of stones.

We''re really only talking about round, oval and marquise- becasue so many other shapes can NOT be set into a 6 prong head.


My feeling is that 4 prongs is prettier- and that''s clearly a question of preference.

If folks love 6 prongs, there''s NO reson not to use them- but the same can be said about 4 prongs.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/3/2005 1:02:41 PM
Author: diamondsbylauren
PERFECT example Cflutist!!!

Here''s a good analogy- Would we all agree that wearing a crash helmet would make our cars safer? Of course it would!
Yet it''s generally agreed that wearing a seatbelt is sufficient.

David,

I love your analogy but I''m inclined to apply it differently. In most, probably all states, it’s actually illegal to wear a crash helmet while driving on public streets because it increases the danger. The problem is that the #1 way to make cars safer is to encourage people to drive them carefully. People who wear crash helmets are inclined to drive more recklessly thereby increasing the danger to themselves and others. It’s the same reason that car insurance costs more with red cars. Helmets don’t address the underlying problem of poor driving habits. The same is true with the 4 vs. 6 prong question. It doesn’t address the underlying issue of craftsmanship, which we all seem to agree is a far more serious concern.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[MissAva]

So how can a consumer ensure that their stone is set properly? I see the diagrams but they are huge in compairsion to actual stone and prong size...is there a test or is looking through the loop our best bet?

 

[denverappraiser]

Matadora,

The same way that you know if your stone has been properly graded: You can turn yourself into an expert, you can consult with someone else who already is, or you can trust the vendor to take care of it for you.

Buy whatever prong count suits your artistic fancy, buy an insurance policy that includes the risks that we''re discussing and wear your ring happily knowing that now it''s the insurance company''s problem.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[MissAva]

So then an appraiser will look at and discuss with you quality of workmanship? I didnt realize...thanks!

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/3/2005 1:56:56 PM
Author: Matatora
So then an appraiser will look at and discuss with you quality of workmanship? I didnt realize...thanks!

Properly describing and analyzing the entire item is a big piece of what makes a good appraisal. It is quite common for the customer to be well aware of the gemological details of the primary stone and the pricing and it was concern about other issues that caused them to seek out an appraisal. A well done appraisal is not the same thing as a certificate matching service although it''s always possible for an individual appraiser to offer both services.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[perry]

David:

If you would read the links that Cflutist posted you would know that when this issue was first identified on PriceScope that RocDoc said the same thing as I, and said it before I did.

Here is the link again (I''m not good at relabiling the links to short words): https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-do-you-prefer-4-or-6-prongs.30404/

I encourage you to read the full postings (latter part of the second page); but here are the first two paragraphs of RocDoc''s post:

RocDoc: July 3, 2005

I recently took a course primarilly directed at assessing insurance losses and evaluating damage to jewelry.
"There is also a "movement" of opinion with insurance companies I learned in this course to not cover 4 prong settings, as a far higher amount of stone loss claims eminates from 4 prong settings vs. 6 prong settings. I dont remember the exact statistics, but it''s approximate stated ratio is about 6 out of 8 losses are due to even a single broken prong."



My reply post was to confirm the information based on a recently discovered article. Had anyone asked for a link to the article at the time I probably could have provided it as I am sure that it would have been in my "History" at that time.

Anyway, RocDoc''s information exactly matched the basic information in the article.

I also note in the link above that Bagpus has on "RING DURABILITY AND DELICACY A-F RATING SYSTEM" that it also states that most diamonds that are lost fall out of 4 prong settings.

In the end the 3 out of 4 ratio is essentially a simple fact. RocDoc was given that ratio (6 out of , it was the ratio in the article I saw.

Stating that it is not valid because I cannot provide the precise link does not make it invalid; nor is it misleading.

The issue then becomes what is the explanation behind the fact.

Could it be, as several others have suggested, that most diamonds are set in 4 prong settings - therefore (by analogy) if the loss ratio was the same for each setting - then 4 prong settings would have the most losses.

Could it be that a 4 prong setting is inately less secure when damaged.

Could there be other reasons.

Personally, based on my experiences and readings. I think it is a combination of the first two reasons, with a solid rating on the second one.

I am sure that the insurance companies probably are looking at this rather closely. I do wonder on who buys insurance. I would not be surprised if most people who buy insurance are in fact dealing with custom rings and other high value rings - where the setting was done with above average skill and workmanship. Somehow I don''t see the people who buy cheap rings spending the money for insurance. Of course I could be wrong.

The real effects though are two:

First, for the consumer and vendor who cares about protecting their gemstones: What type of setting do you get to ensure reasonable security for your diamond or other gemstone? Yes I will agree that a well constructed and well set 4 prong is better than a poor 6 prong, or even a poor semibezel. However, each of us must weigh the various factors and choose.

Second, what will the insurance companies end up doing after they finish studying the issue. None of us have any control over that. However, my personal guess is that insurance for 4 prong settings will increase somewhat, there will be discounts for 6 or more prongs, semibezels, etc.

Perry

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Thanks for taking the time Perry.
In RocDoc''s post he mentions " A movement of opinion"- which means some people might be thinking about something- nothing more.
I have strong doubts as to whether insurance companies are going to start calling their 4 prong policyholder to cancel policies.
Now I''m no expert on insurance, but my understanding is that most jewelry which is insured, is insured by the person''s homeowner''s insurance.
I hope others who have experience will chime in here- but I don''t believe Chubb will simply sell a stand alone insurance policy on a ring without checking out where a person lives, for example.
A persons credit standing might play a much larger role in the ability to purchase insurance on jewelry.

Perrry- if you love 6 prong settings by allmeans- go for it.
Personall, I prefer a round in 4 prongs- but it''s really a matter of taste.

I stand by my statement- owners of well made 4 prong rings in good condition have NOTHING to worry about.
Any diamond , in any type of setting needs to be checked periodically to make sure it''s tight.

3 out of 4 warnings we receive are overblown

 

[AmantdeChat]

UPDATE:
Just got my ring back today. Basically the sales lady explained to me that the jeweler recommends a bars to go across and connect the four prongs since the setting, although pretty, is flawed in this one area. She quoted me $350. So I said I would get back with them and talk to my fiance' about it.
Well when I got home, he was on the phone with the store manager who had called and wanted to reiterate the importance of securing the prongs better. He said unfortunately the design is flawed and his bench jeweler said the ring would be in the "shop" alot because of the high prongs and nothing holding them together so to speak. He said they could put the bars on to where they are not noticable and he also offered to do the work at no charge to us! Hopefully this is the case, as I called and haven't heard back from him yet. But if so, it's good news, but the bad news is I have to give my ring up again!!

Oh well, if it means better security and not having to worry about it than it's worth it. I figure I will turn it in Monday, so I can a least wear it for the weekend.

I will try and take pictures of it when it's done to let you all see what they did.

Edited for spelling/grammer errors.