DH''s career (long)

[robbie3982]

DH had his yearly review today at work. They''re giving him an 8% raise, definitely nothing to sneeze at, but nowhere near what we''d been hoping for or what he deserves. Even with this raise, he''s making $10k less than what salary.com has for the low end of his field (software engineer) at his experience level (3 years putting him at level 2). He''s not even making the mid-range for entry level experience.

He went into the review with a good plan and things were looking really good. His reasoning was sound about why he deserved the raise he was asking for (he''s one of the more senior employees at the company now, they''re paying below what he should be making for the area, he''s worked on both sides of development while most people have only done one or the other) and the company''s obviously been doing well since they''re creating new positions and bringing in new people all over the place.

My understanding (he just texted me since he didn''t want to email about it from work or call since people would hear) is that they gave him a run-around answer about whether or not he''d ever be making the kind of money that he should be in this industry in the area we live--kind of like, well you''ll just have to wait and see how it goes.

I think that''s ridiculous! He''s been there 3 years and the company''s doing well! I feel like if it hasn''t happened now, it''s never going to happen.

We''ve been looking at houses, but now I feel like we should stop and start looking for jobs in Pittsburgh (where we''re originally from). Maybe he could find a job where we''re at now that pays what he should be making, but I feel like if he''s going to change, we should just make the move back home that we wanted to make at some point anyway.

DH and I discussed possible outcomes of this review before it happend and decided that if they didn''t give him a raise for at least $X, then we''d be moving. The raise wasn''t even half of that.

Here''s the problem: he loves where he works (besides the subpar pay)! He''s never stressed out by work and he loves his coworkers (a group of them hang out a lot and his direct supervisor was even in our wedding). DH also hates change. Even though we''d be moving back to our families (his is big) he''d have to deal with starting a new job.

So, I''m torn about whether to push the move (which we both agreed to but I know he''s terrified of) or to stay where we are because it would be easier on him.

DH''s sister was telling me on Halloween that I need to push him to make the move back home and move on in his career or he never will. I can definitely see that happening. I know DH is unsure of himself and his worth as a worker (this is his first job out of college), but I know that he''s a great worker and can do better than this job. I just feel like there''s a very thin line between pushing him into something I know he can do and pushing him into something he doesn''t want to do. I mean what if I push the move and he HATES his new job and resents me for making him leave the old one? I really want DH to be happy and I definitely don’t want to be the cause of any unhappiness!

My career, by the way, is pretty much irrelevant at this point (in case anyone was wondering). I dislike my current job, but I''ve disliked every job I''ve had so far, so I''d rather dislike a job near our families.

The reasoning for wanting to move back home is that it would be great to be around family when it’s time to have kids (another year or so) and plus we wouldn’t have to miss out on events like we do now with his family (or make a 3hr round trip almost every weekend).

So, if you’ve actually made it through this novel-length post, what would you do???

 

[laine]

I realize this doesn't get to most of the issues you talked about, but in terms of the salary thing, does salary.com take cost of living into account? Because if you're in a relatively inexpensive area, the salaries are just never going to get up to what may be considered average, as the average can be skewed by the really high cost of living in some places. What I'm trying to say, is he may not be as underpaid as you think he is. You need to make sure you're comparing apples to apples.

Assuming that you've considered that and he really is underpaid, then I agree you guys should sit down and talk and consider all your options: moving back to Pittsburgh, getting a new job where you live now, etc. As you said, if they don't appreciate him now, its probably not going to change. Though if he really likes the job, I'd probably give it one last ditch effort, something like along the lines of you don't pay me enough, I have another offer, if you can't step it up, I'm out of here (obviously needs help from those experienced in negotiation, but you get the idea).

Good luck!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

This hits close to home for me, so I can definitely relate.

If I were you, this would be my plan of attack. Interview for jobs in Pittsburgh and see what kind of offer(s) he gets. If the offer is more what you are expecting and the position is one he''d like to take, then you could do one of tow things: 1. Just take the job in Pittsburgh or 2. He could tell his current company that he wants to stay, but he has xx offer from another company and in order for him to stay, they need to match it. If they do, then you can decide if you want to stay or not. If they won''t match it, then go ahead an move.

Sorry you''re in this situation, I know it''s tough. It sounds like his current company does value him, so they might be willing to fight for him, but there''s only one way to find out...

 

[decodelighted]

Give it a few days to sink in. Don''t leap on him to discuss & make decisions right as he''s feeling a bit let down himself. After the initial dissapointment passes & he''s feeling more "up", maybe you could casually search jobs in the Pittsburgh area for YOURSELF (and for him a bit). Start passing ideas by him without a big "talk". House listings there etc. Maybe his siblings could help out too. If it becomes something you''re casually talking about & considering it can snowball & start to (get this) feel like his own idea.

I''m not saying brainwash him ... just approach gently, organically. Don''t make this a "You failed HERE so lets bail" matter because it could VERY MUCH feel like that to him.

 

[chrono]

Laine beat me to it.

I was about to bring up the cost of living of the area as well. Also not all software engineering jobs are quite the same - it depends on exactly what sort of programming, etc is done. It seems like his job is also very cushy right now, (low pressure). I am fairly sure the higher paying jobs also comes with more pressure. It''s a trade off. There is no harm in getting out resumes to where you paln to live (Pittsburg), or even interviewing. This will give both of you some idea of the job market and pay (don''t forget that Pittsburg''s cost of living is probably more so the salary will obviously be more and there''s also more traffic to deal with, etc. you get the idea).

 

[robbie3982]

Thanks for the advice guys!

Laine, I was thinking that maybe salary.com was off so I looked up my own job and I''m making in the low end of my range. I guarantee that my company would not pay me more than it has to, so I''d say salary.com is spot on for our region.

NewEnglandLady, that''s what we originally decided he was going to do for the review, but then he decided that he would just wait and see how it went since interviewing 1.5 hrs away would be tough without them knowing. I think we''ll have to revisit this though.

Deco, I think that''s a great idea about not bringing it up for a little while. I feel so bad that he''s probably feeling really down right now and I have to wait another 5.5 hrs before I can even give him a hug

. I definitely don''t want to make him feel like he failed! Especially since that''s not what I think at all! I really like the idea of having his siblings say stuff to him too. For some reason, I can tell him something for weeks, but when his brother and brother-in-law tell him, it''s suddenly a great idea, lol.

Chrono, the COL isn''t that different between here and Pittsburgh. It seems like you can get a bit more here, but not that much more. The property taxes are definitely higher (about double!), but the areas we''d be looking at in Pittsburgh are also much nicer.

 

[lyra]

I think you need to be a bit more realistic to be honest. He''s *only* been at the job 3 years. How long has he been working in this career total? If it''s a small, new company, it stands to reason that the pay will be lower. My husband is almost 30 years into his career, and even he makes less than what the market says he should, you can''t rely on things like that. There is no such thing as job security anymore, and we''ve found out 3 times that one can be made redundant at a moment''s notice, and unfairly to boot. I suggest you wait a bit, set a timeline for a real sit down make plans type of discussion. Think longer term if you can, but take into account that starting a new job is very risky. We moved across the country to take a higher paying job only to find out after just less than one year that the job was ending abruptly. It''s very expensive to move. We ended up having to stay where we are, and in the very long run (10 years now), it has worked out for the best and he has a really great job but still no real job security.

OTOH, I totally agree with you about wanting to live near family. That would be a priority for me and my DH too if it were in any way possible. Again, plan for it, discuss it. Be prepared to take risks. Save as much money as you can so that you have a cushion to fall back on. It''s a big step. Good luck!

 

[littlelysser]

Hey there.

I completely understand where you are coming from, as my DH doesn't get paid what he should either. He's a computer scientist/researcher at a major universty in Pittsburgh...actually!

It kind of drives me a bit nuts...DH has been head-hunted by Google and a few of the other big guns out there...but he LOVES his job. He loves the hours, he loves his coworkers and he just really loves his work. He makes decent money, but no where near what he could make if he'd look elsewhere.

Admittedly, I'd love the extra money...but DH loves his job...so he'll stay put!

That having been said, being close to family would be a big deal for me...especially if you guys want to start a family. Plus, and I am totally biased here...but I think PGH is a great place to live. Honestly, considering the cost of living and everything else...there are few other places we'd want to go.

Were I you, I'd ask DH to start looking at jobs in the 'burgh. It certainly can't hurt to interview, right? Or at the very least, start looking to see what is out there.

But I do understand that if he hated the new job, you'd feel awful for even suggesting it. Ugh. Yeah. Tough call.

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 11/7/2007 12:13:43 PM
Author: lyra
I think you need to be a bit more realistic to be honest. He''s *only* been at the job 3 years. How long has he been working in this career total? If it''s a small, new company, it stands to reason that the pay will be lower. My husband is almost 30 years into his career, and even he makes less than what the market says he should, you can''t rely on things like that. There is no such thing as job security anymore, and we''ve found out 3 times that one can be made redundant at a moment''s notice, and unfairly to boot. I suggest you wait a bit, set a timeline for a real sit down make plans type of discussion. Think longer term if you can, but take into account that starting a new job is very risky. We moved across the country to take a higher paying job only to find out after just less than one year that the job was ending abruptly. It''s very expensive to move. We ended up having to stay where we are, and in the very long run (10 years now), it has worked out for the best and he has a really great job but still no real job security.

OTOH, I totally agree with you about wanting to live near family. That would be a priority for me and my DH too if it were in any way possible. Again, plan for it, discuss it. Be prepared to take risks. Save as much money as you can so that you have a cushion to fall back on. It''s a big step. Good luck!

Lyra, this is his first job out of college. I know that 3 years isn''t an insane amount of time to be working somewhere, but it is enough experience to qualify him as level 2 and this raise doesn''t even put him at the 10th% of level 1 (he''s still a bit more than $1k below that).

Longterm, the plan has always been to move back to Pittsburgh.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[lauralu]

Just a question. Is the salary the both of you getting from your jobs the low end according to the country as a whole? Or the low end in your Area? It may or may not be inline with what your area/city is paying for your line of work. If it is inline, than do not expect to be paid more than what everyone else is also getting.If it is lower, than a change is most likely worth looking into.

Cost of living in your area is huge to consider. Will it cost more to live somewhere else that will offset the wage increase.

How badly do you want to move back home? Than any difference in wage, costs of living ect is worth the added peace you will feel being closer to family ect. Especially after kids come along. (all the posts lately about wanting and not wanting to have children. I think I did read you and your husband were wanting to have children eventually)

Lastly. IMHO. There is nothing better than being at a job you love. Loving where you work equals more time to love your life outside of work as well...... where it counts the most.

Lots to think about. there is nothing wrong with looking. Checking things out. Housing,cost of living, job opportunities ect. Just looking does not tie you into anything. You will just be more informed.

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 11/7/2007 12:19:15 PM
Author: littlelysser
Hey there.

I completely understand where you are coming from, as my DH doesn''t get paid what he should either. He''s a computer scientist/researcher at a major universty in Pittsburgh...actually!

It kind of drives me a bit nuts...DH has been head-hunted by Google and a few of the other big guns out there...but he LOVES his job. He loves the hours, he loves his coworkers and he just really loves his work. He makes decent money, but no where near what he could make if he''d look elsewhere.

Admittedly, I''d love the extra money...but DH loves his job...so he''ll stay put!

That having been said, being close to family would be a big deal for me...especially if you guys want to start a family. Plus, and I am totally biased here...but I think PGH is a great place to live. Honestly, considering the cost of living and everything else...there are few other places we''d want to go.

Were I you, I''d ask DH to start looking at jobs in the ''burgh. It certainly can''t hurt to interview, right? Or at the very least, start looking to see what is out there.

But I do understand that if he hated the new job, you''d feel awful for even suggesting it. Ugh. Yeah. Tough call.

Is his university hiring software engineers?

 

[robbie3982]

style="WIDTH: 97.5%; HEIGHT: 278px">Date: 11/7/2007 12:30:36 PM
Author: lauralu
Just a question. Is the salary the both of you getting from your jobs the low end according to the country as a whole? Or the low end in your Area? It may or may not be inline with what your area/city is paying for your line of work. If it is inline, than do not expect to be paid more than what everyone else is also getting.If it is lower, than a change is most likely worth looking into.

Cost of living in your area is huge to consider. Will it cost more to live somewhere else that will offset the wage increase.

How badly do you want to move back home? Than any difference in wage, costs of living ect is worth the added peace you will feel being closer to family ect. Especially after kids come along. (all the posts lately about wanting and not wanting to have children. I think I did read you and your husband were wanting to have children eventually)

Lastly. IMHO. There is nothing better than being at a job you love. Loving where you work equals more time to love your life outside of work as well...... where it counts the most.

Lots to think about. there is nothing wrong with looking. Checking things out. Housing,cost of living, job opportunities ect. Just looking does not tie you into anything. You will just be more informed.

My salary is on the lower end for our area, but it makes it onto the chart. This fits really well with my company. DH''s salary is below the low end for our area. I haven''t even looked at national averages since we live in a LCOL area.

I think moving back home we''d probably be in about the same situation moneywise (higher incomes, but slightly higher COL), but I think there are also more opportunities there for both of us than there are here. While we''d ideally love to have DH work and me stay home with our future kids, the more I think about it, the more I think that it just might not be possible. If he''d gotten the raise we were hoping for it would''ve been tight, but possible. It would not be possible at this salary while we''re renting let alone after buying a house. Which would mean that we''d both be working so our kids would have to be in daycare or have a nanny and I''m really not comfortable with that in this area. If we had to do it at home, our moms would be able to help out a little at least (his is retired and mine''s a SAHW/M) and I''d feel more comfortable with the daycares in that area too. It''ll be at least another year before we''re ready to start TTC, so kids are at least 2ish years off. I really wanted to be settled wherever we''re going to be before that though.

I completely agree with you about how important it is to love your job! The only job I''ve liked was my internship. I dislike the current job, but I HATED my last one. It was seriously awful having to go to work every day hating it and worrying that I would get fired (not for anything I''d done, that was just the atmosphere of the company and they actually let half of my department go a few months after I left and again a year after that). I never want him to be in that situation.

 

[littlelysser]

I asked DH and he sent me a link to this website. According to DH, it is the best place to look, at least as far as positions at CMU go!

http://hr.web.cmu.edu/prospective/

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 11/7/2007 1:08:14 PM
Author: littlelysser
I asked DH and he sent me a link to this website. According to DH, it is the best place to look, at least as far as positions at CMU go!

http://hr.web.cmu.edu/prospective/

Thanks littlelysser! I''ll give him the link in a few days.

I forget, are you from the area originally?

 

[littlelysser]

I was born in the ''burgh, parents moved to Denver, Cincinnati and Baltimore...

Came back here for law school in ''98 and I''ve been here ever since.

DH came to Pittsburgh from the Netherlands around the same time to work at CMU.

We met in 2001 (after my sister hit on him at a bar...)...and the rest is history.

I really do love this city...as do all of my friends that come to visit us here...It is so cheap to buy a place, there is tons of culture and great restaurants...and of course, the steelers!

 

[Pandora II]

Here in the UK, 3 years at the beginning of your career is considered a long time - most people move every 2-3 years for the first ten years or so. It is the only way to move up the ladder and earn more money. Stay more than 5 years in a first job and you will find it very hard to get employed by someone else here.

Moving also opens up new experinces and you learn more - it''s good to have to leave your comfort zone a bit.

It''s always scary moving to a new job - what if I hate it/colleagues/boss. What if I can''t do the work and they fire me etc etc

All I know is everytime I moved I wondered what took me so long - kind of like ex-bfs.

I can see a lot of positives for you both in moving back to your families.

Unfortunately, whereas we would like our partners to present us with a sheaf of job ads and an appointment with a CV writer, men don''t normally appreciate this. You need to be careful not to push too hard - but don''t be completely silent on the matter either.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I certainly understand the desire to move closer to family before you have kids. And that is really a separate issue from this job raise problem.

What I think is, the more you make, the more stress you have, if you are working for someone else. My poor hubby has such a high stress job and he cannot enjoy it because the bottom line is all the higher-ups care about. He has too much time in to even consider leaving, so he keeps hanging on until he can retire early.

So moving issues aside, if he is happy in his job, good for him!!!! Not that many people are! And 8% is a nice raise today.

 

[:)]

Robbie, I read your initial post, and skimmed the rest of the thread - forgive me if I missed something in the follow up posts, but two thoughts
1. He can seek out a job offer elsewhere in the area, and return to the table with it (ante up so to speak with a job offer from a comparable firm in the same area - a job offer in another city they likely would not take as seriously as one nearby)
2. I know it is REALLY hard, but I think you have to support whatever decision HE makes about this at this time, and not push him - I would let him make his own decision about what he truly wants to do about his job. Who knows, the next job could be worse, and then you would feel terrible for pushing him. Whatever decision he makes, just be a kind and loving and supportive person (I know it is hard b/c a lot of times we females want to fix things for our significant others!)

There is something to be said (and a degree of pay cut that he may be willing to accept, but only he can decide what it is worth to him) for a happy work environment.

Good luck - I am sorry you are having to deal with this. I think your heart is in the right place

 

[robbie3982]

Update:

When DH came home I asked how the rest of the review went since he hadn''t told me anything beyond the raise part. It sounds like they talked about salary first and she basically told him she can''t do anything beyond the 8% and then said something along the lines of so I understand if you feel like you have to leave, but please try to give us a month''s notice. He''s really pissed about that. He also said that it seemed like she wasn''t even going to do the rest of his review (which was all very positive) after that! DH never expressed wanting to leave. In fact he started out by saying how much he loves working for the company and wants to stay!

At this point he''s frustrated with the fact that they don''t value him nearly as much as they should and he wants to move back to Pittsburgh. He even told me I should call the realtor and cancel our appointment with her for Sunday. I kind of want to give it a few days. I think he''s upset right now and I don''t want to make rash decisions about jobs and moving. I want to make sure that he wants to move back for the right reasons and not just because he''s mad.

Do you guys think I should cancel the appointment with the realtor? I don''t want to waste her time, but if we do decide to stay I don''t want to cancel on her and have her not want to deal with us later...

 

[Regular Guy]

Robbie,

Let time pass, and clarify. Cancel, explaining why, and that you need time to clarify what you want to do. You can meet with the realtor in a few weeks, and continue if desired.

Look with your partner for clarity. Sounds like you''re thinking pretty clearly. Continue to support each other.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Robbie, I agree with Ira on this one. I would explain to the realtor that your plans have been slightly altered and you are not ready to buy a house in that area at this time. I would not waste the realtor''s time, and I wouldn''t want houses to tempt you to make the wrong decision. It''s much better to wait until you''re sure where you want to live before buying a house. You''ll both be able to think more clearly in a few days, and the first thing I''d do after that is just check into job opportunities in the Pittsburgh area. Good luck to you both!

 

[chiefneil]

I'll ditto most of what others have said. The best thing to do is to start interviewing - if you're not ready to pick up and move to Pittsburgh, at least interview locally to see what the going rate is. Three years out of college as a programmer, I'm going to guess he's in the 50-60k range for either C/C++ or Java?

But a lot depends on the language, overall skillset, and local demand. Programming is quite fragmented these days, so for example a Java developer who can design and configure a Websphere environment along with associated program could demand a fortune, while a VB programmer might get peanuts.

It is true that in general internal raises don't keep pace with the industry. So the longer you stay at a company the further behind you fall. But that said, 8% is quite a good raise and I wouldn't expect significantly more unless he got a decent promotion to justify it.

 

[robbie3982]

Date: 11/8/2007 1:13:42 AM
Author: chiefneil
I''ll ditto most of what others have said. The best thing to do is to start interviewing - if you''re not ready to pick up and move to Pittsburgh, at least interview locally to see what the going rate is. Three years out of college as a programmer, I''m going to guess he''s in the 50-60k range for either C/C++ or Java?

But a lot depends on the language, overall skillset, and local demand. Programming is quite fragmented these days, so for example a Java developer who can design and configure a Websphere environment along with associated program could demand a fortune, while a VB programmer might get peanuts.

It is true that in general internal raises don''t keep pace with the industry. So the longer you stay at a company the further behind you fall. But that said, 8% is quite a good raise and I wouldn''t expect significantly more unless he got a decent promotion to justify it.

That''s the range that we feel he should be in as well. We''d be ecstatic with the lower end of that. His company doesn''t even pay close. I figured out yesterday that if they continue giving him 8% raises every year, it would be 2011 before he got into that range, which to me is just ridiculous. That would be at his 7 year review.

If DH still feels like he wants to leave, we''ll be working on the resumes this weekend.

 

[chiefneil]

A lot depends on the company and industry he''s in, and how he started. If he went to a state school or community college and started at a non-high-tech firm, then a low salary would not be surprising. If the company''s business isn''t high-tech or software, then programmers are not strategic to the business, hence the low salary.

His best bet is to find a high-tech company either locally or in Pittsburgh. I think there''s a decent tech industry there, and be warned that CMU and Pitt are probably not going to pay as much as private industry. Now that he''s got some experience under his belt it should be easy to land a job at a tech firm and get a jump in pay.

While I''m an advocate of work-life balance and working in a company you like with people you like, I don''t think that should be a major factor for someone in their 20''s. Right now he needs to build his career fast and crank up his earnings potential. Once he hits 40 he can think about slowing down and being more choosy, but now is the time to max out the 401(k) and save as much as possible (through higher earnings) in order to take advantage of time-value and compounding interest for retirement savings.

 

[chiefneil]

Sorry, just realized that I might offend someone who attended a state school with my last post. There are many fantastic and well-known state schools that are comparable to elite private universities. I was thinking more along the lines that a new graduate from MIT with a degree in computer science is going to demand a higher starting salary, and have more open doors, than a graduate from somewhere like Idaho State in the same field.

After a few years in the workplace these differences tend to level out (assuming the individuals are equally talented) but the person from the less-well-known school who took the less prestigious job generally has to switch companies in order to catch up.

 

[gailrmv]

I don't know his industry, but I do know that liking your job/boss/coworkers and having good hours is worth a LOT. Imagine if he made more, hated being at work and worked much longer hours but made more $$, would you guys be any happier? I doubt it. I've had several jobs now and for me work/life balance is essential, liking and respecting my boss and coworkers is second, job details third and salary is last (within reason, of course). If you guys are just a few hours drive from your family, that's not too bad either.
How about if he job hunts in your area, gets a higher offer, then takes it to his boss with the approach of "I want to keep working for you, but I could be earning $x more across town. Can you do anything to narrow the gap?"

 

[blondie23]

Robbie I will say that my I am a systems engineer and my FI is a computer programmer and he makes in the 65-80K range (with 2 years experience) so your DH should be making more. He''s worth more than that especially after working for 2 years! I''m sorry that you are both dealing with this. It''s hard when you don''t feel like you are getting paid what you are worth. Hugs

 

[Richard Sherwood]

It''s nice to be around family.....unless they drive you nuts, of course.

Even then it''s still kind of nice. You don''t realize how nice until they''re gone, and then it''s too late.

 

[pennquaker09]

You know money isn''t everything. A lot can be said for him like his job.

On the other hand, being close to family does make a world of difference. I really think that if a position opens in Atlanta, Nate will want to move their. But I have no desire to go back to Alabama. At all.

 

[robbie3982]

I know that money isn''t everything, but I think future outlook of the job is important too and so does DH. He''s got nowhere to go in this job. He''s still insisting that he wants to move to Pittsburgh, so unless he changes his mind, we''ll start the job searching next week.

I think him being unhappy with the company and how they value their employees is a big deal. He can like his coworkers all he wants, but I don''t think that''s a reason to stay. That''s like picking a college because your friends are going there. Coworkers aren''t a permanent aspect of a job. They could leave at any time.