Connecticut Legalizes Gay Marriage!

[Italiahaircolor]

Many of my business associates are homosexual...and I consider what CT did another battle won in the war.

I believe in equal right...across the board...for everyone. However, I know I''m idealistic, and not everyone will share my opinion.

Marriage isn''t a "right"...marriage is an honor. To meet that one person who shares your dreams and goals...the one person you want to share everything with...and who feels the same about you. To block that from someone -- to rob them of that joy -- in my opinion, is a crime. And it breaks my heart.

I hope someday the whole world--and esspecially our little United States--will be forward thinking enough to appreciate the fact that two people can fall in love and all else be da*ned.

 

[galeteia]

The claim that Ancient Greece supported homosexuality is a fallacy, as Historians should know. Sparta is the only country that could be argued to support homosexual relationships as they believed it bound together their fighting units (who had been raised together since boyhood) and made them more reliant upon one another than emotionally attached to their women, who were seen as bearers of new soldiers.(Lefkowitz & Fant, 1992).

Ancient Greece is my area of study. Homosexuality, which is the sexual preference for one's own gender, was not widely accepted in Ancient Greece, contrary to modern belief. If one was to prefer relations with another full-grown man (i.e. homosexuality by preference instead of contraceptive convenience, exercise of power, or perpetuation of tradition) that was considered deviant, especially if one was the submissive partner.

I have several other remarks I would dearly love to make, however in respecting PS rules on discussing religion, I am not going to make them.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 10/14/2008 4:25:14 PM
Author: Italiahaircolor
Many of my business associates are homosexual...and I consider what CT did another battle won in the war.

I believe in equal right...across the board...for everyone. However, I know I''m idealistic, and not everyone will share my opinion.

Marriage isn''t a ''right''...marriage is an honor. To meet that one person who shares your dreams and goals...the one person you want to share everything with...and who feels the same about you. To block that from someone -- to rob them of that joy -- in my opinion, is a crime. And it breaks my heart.

I hope someday the whole world--and esspecially our little United States--will be forward thinking enough to appreciate the fact that two people can fall in love and all else be da*ned.

Mine too. So well said!

 

[swimmer]

OK, I'm going to put something radical out here for a history teacher: When homosexuals have been so marginalized and maligned throughout history, and we all agree that this is a bad thing, why are we looking to the past for insight on this?

I'm a huge fan of vaccinations, equal rights for people of all skin colors, voting even if you have ovaries, automatic suspension, space travel, MRI machines, plastic, and Oreos. All have basis in the past, but new versions today.

We can cling to traditions espoused by slave owners, and we will, and some we should, but we agree that slavery is wrong.

Someday in the future our children will ask us if it is true, were homosexuals really treated so badly back in the day? and tears will run down our faces as we say, "yes, its true, it did happen, but I did my best to support all humans being treated equally." Thank goodness we have changed so much since then.

The people who are now in their 60s and 70s, the ones who threw rocks at little black children integrating the schools, are they now proud of what they did back then? Those who are opposed to rights for gays are going to be in that position within a generation or so, the tide is turning everywhere against intolerance. Heck, the tide is turning against tolerance, now we must understand and empathize.

Love thy neighbor as thyself, someone famous said that once. I think he meant it.
Give the legal rights to love to others that you would give yourself.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 10/14/2008 4:47:10 PM
Author: Galateia

The claim that Ancient Greece supported homosexuality is a fallacy, as Historians should know. Sparta is the only country that could be argued to support homosexual relationships as they believed it bound together their fighting units (who had been raised together since boyhood) and made them more reliant upon one another than emotionally attached to their women, who were seen as bearers of new soldiers.(Lefkowitz & Fant, 1992).

Galateia, I see that your source is from 1992. My husband and I had long since stopped studying history (me) and classics (him) by then! Since I do believe that new information comes along and that new schools of thought interpret the information that has been available previously, you have a quite a bit of time-almost 20 years-and material that was avalable to you that was not to us!

Do tell me more, please, about homosexuality in Greece generally as you understand it and what the commonly held fallacies held about homosexuality in Greece were. My husband was taught both in Italy (where he received a Laurea in lettere in classics) and here at an American university that homosexuality was indeed supported by Greek culture. (Given the primacy of Athens, I cannot imagine that he would have said any such thing if he were referring only to Sparta!)

BTW, I am not trying to challenge you! I have no doubt you can run circles around us. We have been away from the academic world for far, far too long to compete with young, sharp minds. But perhaps you can point us to some good reading material that will help to bring us up to date! We do like to know what is going on in intellectual circles!


Deborah

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 10/14/2008 5:56:32 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 10/14/2008 4:47:10 PM
Author: Galateia

The claim that Ancient Greece supported homosexuality is a fallacy, as Historians should know. Sparta is the only country that could be argued to support homosexual relationships as they believed it bound together their fighting units (who had been raised together since boyhood) and made them more reliant upon one another than emotionally attached to their women, who were seen as bearers of new soldiers.(Lefkowitz & Fant, 1992).

Galateia, I see that your source is from 1992. My husband and I had long since stopped studying history (me) and classics (him) by then! Since I do believe that new information comes along and that new schools of thought interpret the information that has been available previously, you have a quite a bit of time-almost 20 years-and material that was avalable to you that was not to us!

Do tell me more, please, about homosexuality in Greece generally as you understand it and what the commonly held fallacies held about homosexuality in Greece were. My husband was taught both in Italy (where he received a Laurea in lettere in classics) and here at an American university that homosexuality was indeed supported by Greek culture. (Given the primacy of Athens, I cannot imagine that he would have said any such thing if he were referring only to Sparta!)

BTW, I am not trying to challenge you! I have no doubt you can run circles around us. We have been away from the academic world for far, far too long to compete with young, sharp minds. But perhaps you can point us to some good reading material that will help to bring us up to date! We do like to know what is going on in intellectual circles!


Deborah

I am interested in this as well.

Also, I want to second Black Jade''s recommendation of Plato''s Symposium to anyone who may be lurking.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 10/13/2008 8:39:14 AM
Author: SandraPaneczko
I have to disagree. If people want to marry within their same sex, that''s their deal but god should be left out of it. There is no getting around what the bible says and there are some who don''t even believe in the bible, this is America and our country is all about freedom and making our own choices but like I said, God will not bless or recognize a marriage between two women or two men.'' I think the problem is homosexuals want to be able to enter into the same marriage as a man and a women and that''s just not possible. Two men can''t stand in a church and make those same vows under god. Maybe by law or something like that would work.
Just my opinion

We don''t discuss religion here on Pricescope. Please remember that and respect it. Your "opinion" should be kept to yourself if it is only supported by your "version" of Godliness.

 

[FrekeChild]

I just want to mention that I wasn''t trying to talk anyone into changing their opinions. I was letting you know what I have learned.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 10/14/2008 5:56:32 PM
Author: AGBF
Galateia, I see that your source is from 1992. My husband and I had long since stopped studying history (me) and classics (him) by then! Since I do believe that new information comes along and that new schools of thought interpret the information that has been available previously, you have a quite a bit of time-almost 20 years-and material that was avalable to you that was not to us!


Do tell me more, please, about homosexuality in Greece generally as you understand it and what the commonly held fallacies held about homosexuality in Greece were. My husband was taught both in Italy (where he received a Laurea in lettere in classics) and here at an American university that homosexuality was indeed supported by Greek culture. (Given the primacy of Athens, I cannot imagine that he would have said any such thing if he were referring only to Sparta!)


BTW, I am not trying to challenge you! I have no doubt you can run circles around us. We have been away from the academic world for far, far too long to compete with young, sharp minds. But perhaps you can point us to some good reading material that will help to bring us up to date! We do like to know what is going on in intellectual circles!



Deborah

It was considered still current in 2006 when I was still taking classes, so if new information has come out since then, I wouldn't know about it. I no longer have university-based access to journals, so unfortunately a reading list is beyond my means, but the specific citation above is from Women's Life in Greece & Rome by Mary R. Lefkowitz and Maureen B. Fant. It's a fascinating book because it is a collection of every reference to women from primary sources we have. It's a very authoritative, if unsuited for continuous reading, resource for direct reference to women in the Classical world. On that note, Women in the Classical World is also an actual title by Fantham, Foley, Boymel Kampen, Pomeroy, and Shapiro.

I imagine that there may be a few new snippets here and there, but I don't recall any major finds within the last 5 years aside from the discovery of Aeschylus' Achilles, but much to my regret, new ground-breaking material doesn't come along too often.

As for my own views on the fallacy of homosexuality's acceptance in Ancient Greece, I too once believed it was widely embraced by their society. My Classics professors were gentle, but they disabused us starry-eyed students thoroughly. An important note is that Classicists agree with one another like a bagful of cats, so it is always possible to unearth a contrary opinion with very little digging. I have wondered in the past if Classical journals were the original medium for scholastic 'trolling' before the internet existed, as the internet shows us what transpires when a group of antisocial, intelligent, and opinionated group meet opposing viewpoints. Granted, journals don't tend to stoop to "Lulz, epic FAIL" but I swear the intent is the same, just with better grammar!

My personal thoughts are while intercourse between males was commonplace, since the instance of true biological homosexuality is controlled by population, the prevalence of relations between males does not equal prevalent homosexuality. It's important to note that the relations between males was between an adult male and a boy, when the feminine qualities of the boy were most apparent. The appeal of the boy, based on how they were depicted in poetry and prose, appears to be how closely he resembles a female surrogate.

Also, it's important to consider the effect of contraception being limited until recent times. In Ancient Greece, men were encouraged to have relations with their wives solely for reproduction, and when a man wished to have recreational relations, his options were prostitutes/courtesans, or boys. Professional female partners had increased risk of STDs and of course pregnancy, whereas the arrangement with a boy I've read described as an 'apprenticeship'. The older man takes the boy under his wing, so to speak, debuting him to society and introducing him to his trade. I've not come across anything to indicate it wasn't primarily an exclusive arrangement, so it would be a reliable form of safer, pregnancy-free recreational intercourse.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

This is also what I learned in my pre-20th century human sexuality class in 2006 as well. My prof was a major scholar of homosexuality in European history and here is what we learned, although I cannot remember the very good article we read from.

The Greeks saw sex as war with a winner and a loser. In hetero relations, a woman was the "loser" because she received and was the "passive" party. Because teenage boys were equated with women, it was not a status problem for them to engage in homosexual relations, although it was mostly intercrural (rubbing between the thighs), not as we envision homosexual acts today. For full grown men to play the part of the women in sex was VERY bad in their standards. It meant that man wanted to lose, a very bad thing in a society frequently at war, so it was largely shunned.

The Greeks did believe only "pure" love could exist between men, but it was because women were seen as so much less and because of the Greek world view. The mind was inherently better than the body so pure love did not involve sex, especially as bodily things were female and mental things were considered male.

The Romans just liked sex so they really didn''t bother the same taboos. The fact that they didn''t have homosexual marriage doesn''t mean much since a lot of the things we associate with marriege, monogamy, true love, etc really didn''t apply in ancient Rome.

 

[FrekeChild]

Hey BIH, have you seen the show "Rome"? What you said about the Romans made me think of it. If it is AT ALL historically accurate, Roman society was sex crazed.

I was going to get into a whole different topic, but I'll refrain from doing so...