Clear Cut Gems: Experiences?

selous · Mar 1, 2014

Also, unrelated to the sapphire saga above, I have also had two separate people private message him about one stone on the same day, and they were given two very different prices. He does not post prices publicly to Facebook. (written by Frekechild)

Just to respond to this false allegation of giving different prices to different people again is not true,lets just be quite open and honest about this.This stone is listed on my website for $450 which in itself is a very fair price,the price I gave to the folks who contacted me through facebook was $375,I believe three people have asked and they were all given exactly the same price.
I believe I have the right to discount a stone to whatever I want especially if it goes down in price.

NKOTB · Mar 1, 2014

While one stone I purchased from Lloyd was not as pictured, I also bought a spess from him that was accurately portrayed in pics, and very nice, with excellent faceting.

selous · Mar 1, 2014

Post by NKOTB » 01 Mar 2014 17:19
While one stone I purchased from Lloyd was not as pictured, I also bought a spess from him that was accurately portrayed in pics, and very nice, with excellent faceting.

Thank you I appreciate the comment,no names mentioned but please also mention that it was the controversial stone mentioned here that you first bought and not just "one stone" as this makes it sound like a completely different transaction and that maybe this has happened more than once whereas this stone was sold once only and to you.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

1. I am not anonymously trying to smear your good reputation. You actually could have reached out to me via Facebook so we could have talked about this in private. That's fine that you're here, I stand behind everything I've said.

2. Many of the vendors frequently discussed/purchased from on PS do not frequently post. Barry Bridgestock being one very popular seller who has never posted to PS.

3. Your pictures do not display "subtle shifts". The purchaser/my friend was under the impression that the stone was the color, or at least similar to the color seen in the super blue pictures. I was never able to make the stone show a bright amethyst purple color, as seen in your pictures.

I wouldn't recommend sending it to a third party to verify anything, you've already spent enough money in shipping costs.

4. I'm not on a crusade to discredit you, in fact, I welcome this discussion. I said specifically that the cut of the stone was nice, and the stone is actually very pretty in it's own right; it's your photos that are the problem.

5. I was not the paying client, you are right. But that does nothing to discredit me or invalidate my experience with the stone. It means that I had no money in the equation. I agreed to inspect the stone for her for a multitude of reasons, the most important being that shipping to Canada is a week+ process, while shipping to California is 2-3 days. She did not want to hold up the stone for longer than necessary in the event that it wasn't what she was looking for. Also, my friend trusts my opinion on lavender-blue stones, as well as gray stones, and we have gone through this process before with other vendors and other stones. For why she trusts me, please visit this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/show-me-your-lavender-periwinkles.194454/

A picture of your stone is in that thread.

6. I tend to have desaturated stones because I actually thrive on gray stones, and like gray modifiers in my stones. Don't be fooled, I have hot pink spinels, red spinels, orange garnets, green emeralds, blue sapphires etc. in my collection. If I had compared this stone to the super saturated colors of those gems, it would have paled even further. Also, my friend is well versed in my affinity for lavenders and periwinkles, and trusts my opinion on them.

7. A USPS Priority Small Flat Rate box is $5.80 to ship. Adding $500 worth of insurance brings the price of shipping in a small Flat Rate Box to $13.80. I have a picture of the box with your address and mine and the postage price is clearly $5.80. I will post that, with addresses removed.

8. I am very glad that you have phased those boxes out. I was not happy to receive a gem rattling around in a box. If you remember, I sent the sapphire back to you in the same box, with inclusion of paper so that the stone would remain immobile. I have bought hundreds of gemstones - yours was the first that I have ever received packaged in a manner that would allow movement of the stone.

This is a consumer advocate website/forum, Lloyd. It is mostly for diamonds but it also is for Colored Stones. Welcome to PS, we actually like having tradespeople around here and welcome your contributions.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

selous|1393684491|3625224 said:
Also, unrelated to the sapphire saga above, I have also had two separate people private message him about one stone on the same day, and they were given two very different prices. He does not post prices publicly to Facebook. - Frekechild

Click to expand...

Just to respond to this false allegation of giving different prices to different people again is not true,lets just be quite open and honest about this.This stone is listed on my website for $450 which in itself is a very fair price,the price I gave to the folks who contacted me through facebook was $375,I believe three people have asked and they were all given exactly the same price.
I believe I have the right to discount a stone to whatever I want especially if it goes down in price.

You are allowed to price things however you want.

The stone I'm talking about was not the sapphire in question. I had two separate friend inquire about one stone that they both liked. They both messaged me with the price that you had quoted them. They knew nothing of each other's interest and I had no prior idea that they were interested in the same stone. Those quotes were very very different. I don't particularly feel like "outing" anyone, so that's the end of what I'm going to say on that particular matter. But you need to realize that precision gem buyers are not the general public, and we talk amongst ourselves within our communities and along our social networks (as a sociological term, not as pop culture).

So again, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot by giving out different pricing to different people. Because people talk. But it's your business, so you can do as you please.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

corundum_conundrum|1393663028|3625169 said:
I appreciate Michael's comments. Following on what he said: those of us viewing a photo that looks very different from a vendor's photo should not jump to conclusions about the inaccuracy of the original photo.

I remember about a year ago, someone was looking for a sapphire for an engagement ring. They bought it, and most people commented that it didn't look as good as the vendor photo, suggested it might not be so nice, and he returned it. It was purchased shortly thereafter by someone who took better photos and many of the same people commented that it was a great stone.

BUT F.C. knows what she is doing, and could NEVER make the stone look like the vendor photo. And she is knowledgeable about stones and their moods etc. So in this case, it really seems like the original photos were not the stone at its best, but the stone as better than it ever was.

Thank you for saying that CC!

selous · Mar 1, 2014

First off I'm not going to debate you infinitely on this but I have third party insurance that covers packages whether sent through the post office or Fedex as it's commonly known that Fedex does not insure gemstones and USPS insurance is worth nothing when it comes time to pay out.

I never denied that the picture originally posted on Facebook was over saturated and described the color in detail to my client,at this point you were not even in the picture or mentioned although you have posted as if that you were the purchaser.I shoot with a Nikon d7000 which as mentioned in my earlier post tends towards a much more blue tone and also mentioned that this particular stone was difficult to photograph and that the original hand shot was hurried as another potential buyer had asked for one.

The pictures were altered many months later as I realized that in order to post it on my website I would have to try and color correct in order to portray the stone closer to real life but they still showed more blue and if you read the description below my website pictures you posted you will clearly see that the color is described in great detail,in fact some of your later photos although still lacking portray a much nicer stone than the grey lifeless images you first posted for impact and to try and support your claim.

Despite denying that you're on some kind of personal crusade to discredit me you have made statements here that say otherwise based on your personal opinion.The fact that you own a few gemstones and may have sold some does not qualify you as an expert.
It's easy to attack a business and someone personally online but you have picked on one stone based on your own pictures which are all over the place in terms of color and tone.

Statement like "I'm disgusted with the latest pictures" are very personal in nature,it's a proven fact that you cannot rely on memory as to how a stone looks,in fact a few minutes can make a big difference,ask any professional,so how you can say that the latest pictures are not an accurate portrayal of the tone and color is beyond my comprehension especially when by your own admittance it was about a year ago.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

minousbijoux|1393611309|3624791 said:
Chrono|1393610416|3624778 said:

FrekeChild|1393609608|3624766 said:

So, I think he's shooting himself in the foot. He's opening himself up to a couple things here by altering the color of the stone for pictures:
1. Returns, so lost money in shipping.
2. Unhappy customers. If a stone is so wildly different from his pictures, why should I trust that the next one will actually resemble the real stone in color?

Click to expand...

There are several vendors in the CS vendors list that I refuse to buy from for the above 2 reasons but they remain there because others have had good experiences.

Click to expand...

+1 - the list is based on, for lack of a better term, the consensus of experiences of the PS community. It is right for Freke to bring this up (and I certainly appreciate the thorough photo documentation in various lighting situations, Freke), and for others to be cautioned by Freke's experience. That said, others have had good experiences with him, so he should stay on the list.

I echo TL's approach as well that we would welcome it if Lloyd wanted to provide any explanation or relevant info on this in a non-argumentative way.

selous · Mar 1, 2014

This is my last comment on this forum regarding this matter but in reply to your allegation of having two different people price my gems and them having been given two different prices,sometimes I'm contacted within minutes of posting a gemstone and may be in the process of deciding a fair price,my premium stones sell quickly sometimes after posting.Retail pricing is all over the place as I'm sure everyone is aware so it's quite possible that in the real time social media environment what may have been considered a fair price at the time may be considered a bit too high 10 minutes later.
Wholesale prices on the other hand are fairly standard and do not fluctuate much.

I will conclude by saying that in all the years I've been in business I have many satisfied customers who have been thrilled with the stones they have purchased,I invite anyone to do an internet search and find even one complaint.

marymm · Mar 1, 2014

I think the vendor has presented his POV by responding to each of the points raised by the PS member(s), using similar language as that used by the poster(s) - if his responses are interpreted as argumentative, then logic would infer the PS member(s)' charges are equally argumentative.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

1. Perhaps some further transparency is needed.

2. What does it matter if I bought the stone or not? It, again, does not invalidate the opinion I have, having seen the stone in person. This site is for us to talk about our purchasing experiences. Do you deny that I received the stone in question and evaluated it myself?

3. Thank you for the lovely comments on my photography efforts.

4. I have said nothing that was untrue. I have said that your photographs are inaccurate and given my own "lacking", "grey lifeless images", "all over the place in terms of color and tone" photographic evidence. I also said that the second set of photos that you took are more accurate, but that the first and third are not.

5. I own several thousand dollars in gemstones. I have owned hundreds of gemstones, and have sold most of those, typically for a loss. A person does not acquire 18,000+ posts in six years on a jewelry forum in small talk. I do not and have never claimed to be an expert. But thank you for belittling my experience.

6. The fact that my pictures are all over the place in terms of color and tone and the fact that I still could not replicate the color seen in your photos says quite a bit.

7. Sure. Stating that I'm disgusted with the latest pictures is also my opinion. I'm allowed to have my opinion and to state it on a customer advocacy forum.

You know what I said when someone sent me these newest photos? "I wonder what that looks like in real life?" to which they replied, "But Liz, YOU KNOW. That's the sapphire from Clear Cut Gems!" I DID NOT RECOGNIZE IT. But you'd probably attribute that to my failing memory.

8. I do not claim to have an infallible memory - it's one reason I take hundreds of photographs. I took 154 photos of this stone, and three videos. I studied this stone very carefully and compared it to several of my own stones with similar colors. These images, as well as my impartial opinions (that were along the lines of, "it doesn't look like the color of the vendor pictures, but it's still a very pretty stone"), allowed the purchaser to make a decision. That decision was in the realm that she wanted a stone that was the blue color seen in your original pictures, and this stone did not meet that.

I'm attaching some screenshots I just took of your Facebook page of your posts of this stone from April 2013.

I'm done here. I've done nothing but give my outlook on one stone that I held in my hand, and the inaccuracies of the vendor photos.

I wish you the best.

digdeep · Mar 1, 2014

I think this 'topic' has reached it's conclusion. I don't see any purpose in more comments from you, Freke, as it appears you are vested in having the last word. I appreciate that Lloyd has stated his side of the story for balance and to defend himself, as that is what this thread became. As stated earlier, (and commented on a daily basis on this forum!!) photo's are often not 'accurate' and Lloyd spoke to that issue, as well as the many other one's presented. No matter how firmly anyone believes they are 'right' it does not legitimize airing dirty laundry over and over and over again. There is always another side to the story. This thread, contrary to what may have been the intent, reflects very poorly on this forum..........

RTFrog · Mar 1, 2014

Hi Lloyd, Freke, and everyone else. I do not believe this issue is completely resolved, as there seems to be some photo elements on the stone in question, along with ones currently listed on the CCG website that have inconsistencies.

I’m a pretty neutral party here that has also used a Nikon D7000 extensively. I have one nearby, and do not have the same problems with blues or other colors/hues. I also have the equipment to shoot in all light types, and understand the differences. In addition, color profiles are often mixed to make up for varying effects of monitor response – therefore providing a margin of error for how everything looks different on independent screens. There are ways to edit colors directly in camera, but if it’s a factory reset – or set to factory standards, then this hue and or saturation issue should not be occurring.

Focusing on the photos alone I’ve found a few things. All of the photos below have not been retouched or changed in anyway.

The background: it seems to be always be changing. I’m guessing it’s a brushed stainless steel.

The Hue, Saturation, and Sharpness often looked tweaked.

Some of this can be shown by the skin tone of the hand changing.

Lloyd, the faceting of your stones look beautiful. I know various vendors use varying techniques to photograph gemstones. Using stainless steel or a gray tone can often influence the stone color regardless of lighting effects. However, it is pretty apparent that there are some inconsistent tweaks or post processing of hues/saturation along with other elements (vibrancy, sharpness, brightness) sometimes occurring. Without going into the technical aspects, there are some ways to tell when images have had post processing. Some of your images exhibit this more strongly then others. If there isn’t software post processing occurring, then maybe for your camera to display as natural of colors possible, it needs to be reset or have saturation lowered or color balanced tweaked. A choice for standardized lighting may help too, things get muddled when varying light sources are mixed.

Freke, I’ve enjoyed your posts for a long time. It takes a great deal of time and patience to take good looking photos of gemstones, and understand the need to take a lot of them to find 1 or 2 good ones. From studying the images provided, there is quite a discrepancy in them. Trying to reproduce conditions to match a vendor picture is admirable and gives the stone a more fair evaluation. The only way I was able to get your photos to match the vendor photos was through quite a bit of post processing regardless of the lighting or background. These three photos, edited next to the originals, below, have been retouched:

PrecisionGem · Mar 1, 2014

A number of years ago I approached several of the other Pricescope popular vendors, and had an idea for each dealer to provide a stone, and photograph the stone in their normal manner. Then circulate all the stones to each other dealer to do the same. I thought it would be real interesting and of value to see each persons photo of the same stones and have them posted here, maybe in a sticky for reference. This would give buyers a good idea of how to "read" or interpret different vendors photographs. Unfortunately I got no takers on this little experiment.

Photographing gems is difficult, and certain stones photograph well, other don't. For me, green stones always give me trouble.

RTFrog · Mar 1, 2014

Hi Gene,

I think that would be a great idea if everyone took their pictures with or without the normal tweaks. It's when they start varying each stone that it really changes the outcome - and would bias the experiment. Your photos always look very consistent!

selous · Mar 1, 2014

In my opinion this matter has been resolved and I would like to first ask nicely that you do not post photos from my website to this site as this is copyrighted material and may not be distributed or shared without my express permission,facebook pictures are another matter.
These photos were not part of this original discussion and you should be advised that I have contacted my attorney with regard to this and I will be pursuing my rights to the full extent of the law.

Alnitak · Mar 1, 2014

I rarely post on PriceScope, but this thread has prompted me to do so.

Photographing gemstones is very difficult. Far more difficult than most people realize. This is particularly the case if you are a retailer of colored stones. It's one thing to take snapshots if you're a collector looking to resell the stone. It's completely another thing if you are a retailer and make your living at it. Why? If you're a collector, you're probably OK if you have to take a loss in selling a stone, and you're held to a different standard by buyers (they don't see you as a "professional"). If you're a retailer, you need to make sure you're presenting your stone in the best possible way, without crossing the line of making it look better than reality. This is the tricky part, and taking a loss is not an option when you need to pay the bills with your work. All of this is complicated with colored stones.

Color is a *very* tricky thing to deal with. There are many variables in color and color perception. Each camera will capture color differently--and even two of the same model cameras from the same manufacturer will differ in how they capture color. Each lens on an interchangeable-lens camera will reproduce color differently. Each software package used to edit the photos--even just for cropping--will use a different image processing engine to save the image, once again introducing variables to color reproduction. Upload it to the web...and different websites apply their own changes to the images on the fly. Facebook, Flickr, Yahoo, Picasa, you name it--they all alter the images. Then, each monitor has a different color profile and will display it differently...and people differ quite widely in our abilities to perceive color. Of course we have the gems themselves, many of which shift or change color with different lighting or at different angles. With all of that variation, its quite literally impossible to ensure that you have an "accurate" representation of color.

This is a topic I am quite familiar with. I am an expert photographer and I'm also deeply knowledgeable about the technology of color reproduction. I have spent many hours taking photographs of calibrated color charts and developing custom profiles to use with my cameras and software. I also cut and sell colored gems. When I photograph gems I make a concerted effort to not only make them look good--I want them to look appealing for sale--but also to make them look as color-accurate to my eye as possible. That does not mean that *your* eyes might not see them differently. I can't help that. But I try to shoot for a mean value--in other words, would most people think that the photo accurately represents the color, tone, etc.

I offer a no-question return policy because of this. I see that Lloyd does the same thing; most vendors do. Its all we can do. All I can see in this thread is that Lloyd clearly told the buyer that the gem was more violet than the photo implied, and he gave an inspection and return privilege. That was the right thing to do. The potential buyer did not want the stone after seeing it in hand and exercised that privilege here. That should have been the end of the story; its unfortunate that it wasn't.

Jeff Hapeman

Alnitak · Mar 1, 2014

RTFrog|1393717235|3625490 said:
Hi Lloyd, Freke, and everyone else. I do not believe this issue is completely resolved, as there seems to be some photo elements on the stone in question, along with ones currently listed on the CCG website that have inconsistencies.

That I see is pretty typical for a camera in auto mode. White balance is the bane of most cameras, and that has a lot to do with some of the color differences I see, as does different lighting. Many gems respond completely differently to different light sources. For example, some garnets can look black and dead in some lighting and intensely red in other lighting.

Some of what you ascribed to sharpness changes is just increased depth of field due to a smaller aperture. You can see this clearly by looking at the amount of image in focus--that can't be changed with sharpness tweaks.

My point is that nothing here smacks of any intentional manipulation to me--just variations in lighting and camera settings, and probably some software variation. I've found that I can take two pictures of the same gem on different days and unless I put the photos side by side and make an *effort* to make them look the same they can end up looking quite different, and quite unintentionally so.

Jeff

OreoRosies86 · Mar 1, 2014

selous|1393725338|3625561 said:
In my opinion this matter has been resolved and I would like to first ask nicely that you do not post photos from my website to this site as this is copyrighted material and may not be distributed or shared without my express permission,facebook pictures are another matter.
These photos were not part of this original discussion and you should be advised that I have contacted my attorney with regard to this and I will be pursuing my rights to the full extent of the law.

You are making this so much worse for yourself.

selous · Mar 1, 2014

You are making this so much worse for yourself.

So I should just sit back and not try to defend myself as my reputation is being dragged through the mud as has been done to many other good cutters on this site,is that what you want? I don't think so Eliot86.

Rtffrog your post seems well intentioned for the most part but if you are "neutral" as you say then please understand that I do not appreciate my intellectual property being re produced on this site so please remove it.

FrekeChild · Mar 1, 2014

Dropping threats of lawyers always sounds ugly, and there is very little anyone cares to do about it. I have said this here before, and I'll say it again, having been raised by an attorney, that you'll waste a ton of money in attorney's fees, and have very little to show for it. Photography and the internet have blurred the lines of copyright law. The only way to have complete control of one's photographs is to not post them to the internet. I think that each photo that has been posted here has been correctly labeled as being from you Lloyd, no one is trying to take credit for taking them.

Dan Stair has had his pictures and policies ripped apart here before too, and he handled it calmly and admirably. This is a large community of almost exclusively gem buyers, and we are lucky to have some cutters and dealers come by sometimes to lend their expertise. I am DELIGHTED that so many of you have graced us with your presence, even if it took such a dramatic thread to do so; I sincerely hope that you all stick around.

As a business owner, you have to know that you're going to get constructive criticism, and you're going to get bad reviews sometimes. You can't make everyone happy all of the time. You've corrected the points that I was wrong on, and I've critiqued your photography compared to the real life stone. You've admitted that the stone looks nothing like the initial super blue photographs.

But the question remains: Should buyers/customers refrain from posting bad experiences with vendors?

The consensus here on PS is that no, they shouldn't. Because that's not what PS is about. But there is always the risk of repercussions from the industry - will I be blacklisted for posting that Lloyd's photographs did not accurately depict the stone? I doubt it, and I truly hope that cutters are not that frivolous. I like being able to have an open dialogue with industry members and learning all kinds of different things. Michael E, Dana and Gene are both pretty regular contributors, and I'm always excited when I see that they have posted.

I came to a realization earlier, when I was glancing through my photos, that most of my photos depict this particular sapphire at a very similar color to the second set of photos from Lloyd - which I have said before. I'm attaching a side by side comparison of my photo and Lloyd's photo. While mine is certainly "lacking" in quality, they show an almost identical color.

How is that possible if my photographs did not accurately capture the stone's color?

Peace.

cm366 · Mar 1, 2014

As several people have said, it's difficult to consistently produce realistic shots of colored stones, especially those which shift more dramatically. I suspect that everyone selling stones, whether vendors or collectors parting with a single piece, has had to decide between putting up shots that show the gem in its best possible light and those that reproduce it most accurately to their eye. Seems like Lloyd had some difficulty in accurately capturing the color on this one, as he describes in the text accompanying the initial photos, and that Freke had similar problems, as evidenced by the number of pics she took.

Some vendors have more sophisticated or more consistent photo set ups than others. From rtfrog's posts, it seems as though Lloyd might be in the process of sorting out what setup works best for him. There's certainly no consensus that any one environment is better- the trusted vendors list encompasses white backgrounds under studio lighting, hand shots in natural light, tweezer shots flooded with light and photos on a dark or black background.

It seems more than reasonable for Freke to post about the experience she had with a stone, and a vendor, on a consumer forum designed to encourage this sort of discussion. It's also perfectly reasonable for Lloyd to explain what photos he took, what choices he made, and to point to his excellent return policy as his guarantee of fine workmanship and ethical selling. Neither of these is a 'shame', or outside the purpose of the forum as I understand it.

There doesn't appear to be any issue of intellectual property involved in the use of vendor photos for discussion. There are ample exemptions to US copyright law which allow reproduction for the purposes of criticism and education.

selous · Mar 2, 2014

I felt I had to respond one last time to this thread.I have read all the posts since my last one,I was fairly tired and frustrated with this topic by last night as it's not every day I'm accused of purposely manipulating an image to mislead a customer.
The reason I'm responding is that the initial 'tone' of this thread has simmered down to the point where I feel I can say something without having to be on the defensive,that is not the way this thread started out.

To address the pictures which were posted from my website I can say that I'm fairly proud of my website photography and have absolutely nothing to hide at all.As every gem photographer knows or should,when shooting gems using digital media some small tweaks are usually necessary as has been mentioned by Jeff Hapeman and Michael_E amongst others.
Saturation is sometimes too high and has to be 'toned down' in order to not over represent the gem,sometimes it needs to be pumped slightly because the image looks dull compared to the gem in real life,a nice tack sharp image is a benefit to the potential customer as it shows minor inclusions and facet meet points much better than a fuzzy image.I'm also not afraid to post large images so that quality of polish and faceting can be clearly seen.Gem photography is a fine line balancing act.
My images are taken to most accurately portray the actual stone and if they are manipulated it is only minimally and not to try and make the gem into something it is not.As has been stated by others this is standard practice in the industry.If we used dull monochromatic images no one would ever buy anything,that is not to say an image should be exaggerated.Having said that sometimes I have an exceptional gem that I just cannot do justice to with an image,when that happens it's a case of "Oh well I just hope someone can look past this image and see the real beauty of this stone"

My camera is a Nikon D7000 as previously mentioned and it definitely tends more toward the blue end of the color spectrum despite what other identical models of the same camera may do.This tendency has to be dealt with when photographing certain stones,the color shift sapphires with purple show more blue,amethyst tends to photograph more blue,green tends to photograph more yellow and has to be adjusted.Aquamarine,blue topaz and other blue stones tend to photograph true as do reds and other colors in the spectrum.

I was annoyed that someone felt they had the right to just arbitrarily take pictures from my website without permission,analyze them and re produce them on this website but after giving it some thought...oh well what the hell,knock yourself out if that's what you want to do.As mentioned,I have absolutely nothing to hide and have received many messages of support and encouragement from members of this forum and other professionals in the gem business.

No doubt someone else will pop up with something they still feel they need to pick apart and analyze to death,all I can say is go for it!

I care very much about my clients,existing and future ones and offer a good return policy so if someone is ever not satisfied with a purchase they may return it without any hassle as was the case with the gemstone that started this thread.
There is really not much more that I or anyone else in this business can do than that.

Lloyd Forrester

movie zombie · Mar 2, 2014

Alnitak|1393725721|3625564 said:
........I offer a no-question return policy because of this. I see that Lloyd does the same thing; most vendors do. Its all we can do. All I can see in this thread is that Lloyd clearly told the buyer that the gem was more violet than the photo implied, and he gave an inspection and return privilege. That was the right thing to do. The potential buyer did not want the stone after seeing it in hand and exercised that privilege here. That should have been the end of the story; its unfortunate that it wasn't.

Jeff Hapeman

I like how you think.

estelle · Mar 2, 2014

FrekeChild|1393539257|3624253 said:
I'm really disgusted with the new pictures.

As I read this string, I wondered to myself whether it would have gone more smoothly if more courtesy was used in the review of this vendor. My impression is the vendor is open to feedback but not attack. I can't really blame him. Be truthful, but always considerate. You can be both.

JewelFreak · Mar 2, 2014

Lloyd's reputation is excellent. I'd be delighted to buy a stone from him -- haven't only because I haven't seen what I'm looking for when I can also afford it. His cutting is top-notch & his stones lovely.

Sometimes posts at PS turn into pile-ons. I find that regrettable. When it concerns a vendor whose reputation is his living (whose isn't?), care should be taken to be scurpulously accurate when writing negative reviews. That doesn't mean "no negative reviews" -- they are helpful to everyone. In my years here, though, I've noticed that enthusiasm for an issue makes some posters go overboard -- in this case, the tone in general that this vendor is not to be trusted -- which is not true and is unfair.

Criticism of someone's ethics isn't a game to be "proven" by over-enthusiasm. It is someone's living. This board is widely read & referred to among gem people all around the web. I am sure that if the positions were reversed -- any of us in the difficult business of selling stones through internet photos, with all the variations in camera, lighting, monitors, etc., we would see things very differently. We must be careful not to besmirch someone's entire character in our zeal to make a point.

--- Laurie

RTFrog · Mar 2, 2014

Selous: Lloyd – I have followed this forum and others for a long time trying to figure out the proper techniques and ways to take better gemstone photos. I saw that you closely replicated Gary’s setup and switched from a D40 to D7000, there’s quite a difference with all the extra focus points and other more advanced camera functions.

Any gemstone dealer or faceter that provides a no-question return policy that allows the buyer to receive a refund if they are not fully satisfied is admirable. This is especially helpful when there’s a disagreement over the final appearance of a stone – or how it looks in the consumer’s hands.

Alnitak: Gemstone photography is very difficult. Making your gemstones look to your eye as they appear in person is a delicate art, and is often necessary. The no-question return policy is awesome, and is very generous especially when dealing with a hue or other disagreement with a consumer.

However, the differences in photos did not occur from Auto mode. Sharpness tweaks are also apparent after reviewing the DOF settings. The average consumer does not know or often dig deep into the external data that accompanies images. It can be very revealing.

JewelFreak: I’ve always advocated for accurate gemstone color reproduction. This is especially important for everyone on this board who carefully selects their gemstones with a primary basis on a picture. I’ve been fortunate enough to learn a lot about digital photography and how it works and now to apply it to gemstone photography along with the programs used to edit the pictures. The pictures used here show that they were edited in Photoshop Cs3-Cs5.

Overall, if pictures look too good to be true (such as some popular ad campaigns, websites, or catalogs) then they most likely are. There are always some exceptions, especially with some of the phenomenal faceters/cutters that Pricescope often features. Kenny’s threads on the Octavia and many others are great examples of them.

To easily reveal some hidden details in photos, I recommend everyone use an image error level analyzer or something like FotoForensics. It’s like an Xray for images. It can help guide those looking to buy gemstones online with some baseline data about the image. It usually helps to have several pictures of the same stone to see the potential differences. I’m simplifying the overall results, but the differences are more easily detectable and often show up as artifacts with bright or colorized spots. Again, trust your own perception of what the photo’s show and how they can potentially influence color/hue/sharpness/saturation.

This one can be used as a baseline, showing little to no digital enhancement.

Slight tweaks

More tweaks

Mico · Mar 2, 2014

RT, can you explain how to interpret these images?

PrecisionGem · Mar 2, 2014

RTFrog, I think this software is not very accurate. I tried a bunch of my images, that have had absolutely no manipulation, other than resizing, and they all lit up like Christmas. Since I shoot everything in RAW mode, every image needs to be converted to a JPG file to be put up on the web and resized. I think this is useless for what you are trying to display.

chrono · Mar 3, 2014

I am glad that Lloyd was informed of this thread and participated although I am sorry that some of the words used were unusually harsh and felt as though they were attacking, rather than discussing the gem(s) and photography methods. We should extend the same courtesy and politeness to the vendors the same way we expect them to treat us. In doing so, both the vendor and client are more likely to be able to resolve their differences amicably and in the case of a public forum discussion, both parties will be able to present their perspectives fairly. As mentioned prior, this could be better served offline between the vendor and client but the client seemed reluctant to contact the vendor directly, hence it became not as nice here in CS. Other "favourite" vendors have also experienced this and a few, unsurprisingly, did not react well, yet continue to do well with Pricescopers.

A few things stood out to me:
1. Always buy with a 100% return and refund policy, no questions asked.
2. Always ask for a description to back up the photography because we know that pictures are not always accurate.
3. Give the vendor a chance to address your concerns offline before airing your complaints publicly. There are always 2 sides to the story.
4. Harsh words and threats rarely works in one's favour, causing more tension and escalating bad feelings between the vendor and client.
5. Just because one picture is "off" does not mean that pictures of the rest of a vendor's inventory are also "off".

Lastly, although Lloyd may not return to post in this thread, we should respect his request to stop posting pictures of his gems here solely for the purpose of dissection his photography methods.

Clear Cut Gems: Experiences?

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Brilliant_Rock

Shiny_Rock

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Super_Ideal_Rock

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Brilliant_Rock

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