ceylon blue spinel

[m76steve]

precision-referring to the 5.9 blue spinel which proved to b not spinel which the 1st appr id'd properly as not spinel but possibly sapphire because of refraction testing-he had the stone only 5 minutes & ruled out spinel-he then said maby sapphire but could not find any positive attachments to sapphire-that was all i took from him-i made an appointment with another appr. 2 days later & after almost 1.5 hrs of testing-observing & referencing books/charts he id'd the stone as well cooked synthetic sapphire & showed me why he came to his conclusion, as evidensed within the stones edges & interior-he did well-steve...

 

[FrekeChild]

Ditto Loving Diamonds.

STOP GIVING YOUR MONEY TO APPRAISERS! SEND THEM TO LABS!

One tells you what you want to hear and the other tells you what something IS chemically, structurally and possibly clarify the origin.

For the love of Pete...

 

[VapidLapid]

precision-referring to the 5.9 blue spinel which proved to b not spinel which the 1st appr id'd properly as not spinel but possibly sapphire because of refraction testing-he had the stone only 5 minutes & ruled out spinel-he then said maby sapphire but could not find any positive attachments to sapphire-that was all i took from him-i made an appointment with another appr. 2 days later & after almost 1.5 hrs of testing-observing & referencing books/charts he id'd the stone as well cooked synthetic sapphire & showed me why he came to his conclusion, as evidensed within the stones edges & interior-he did well-steve...

Steve I would be at least suspicious of an appraiser who determines a stone to be both synthetic and well-cooked. synthetics dont need treatment and it's likely easier to remelt a defective crystal than to treat it.

 

[LD]

precision-referring to the 5.9 blue spinel which proved to b not spinel which the 1st appr id'd properly as not spinel but possibly sapphire because of refraction testing-he had the stone only 5 minutes & ruled out spinel-he then said maby sapphire but could not find any positive attachments to sapphire-that was all i took from him-i made an appointment with another appr. 2 days later & after almost 1.5 hrs of testing-observing & referencing books/charts he id'd the stone as well cooked synthetic sapphire & showed me why he came to his conclusion, as evidensed within the stones edges & interior-he did well-steve...

NO HE DIDN'T. He's given you poor advice AND had to look up reference books!

 

[FrekeChild]

You know Steve, I think the problem is that you seem to be convinced that they are not only right, but that they cannot be wrong. This thread has been going on for entirely too long, with entirely too much dissent for you to not have opened up your eyes at least a little bit.

Part of the issue, that I think is bringing so many people to the table to voice their concerns, is that you aren't just saying "I bought these on ebay, they are beautiful and I love them no matter what they are." Instead you're saying, "I bought these for a steal on ebay, and I'm getting them appraised for amounts that are twenty times more than I paid for them! Every single stone I have is the steal of the century!"

What are the odds of every single stone you've bought being the stone of the century? I could ask my husband (he's a statistician) but I really don't care to find out how incredibly unlikely it is.

I think every person who has posted a differing opinion from your appraiser's on here has been met with denial denial denial. I think deep down, you are unsure about all of these claims that these are amazing deals and you are unsure about your appraisers, but you don't want to be proven wrong by a lab. Understandable--we, as humans, never want to be wrong!

I wish I could believe that you HAVE gotten amazing deals on all of these stones, I really do. That would make me feel a lot better about humanity and ebay in general. But we live in a capitalist society, and people know that marketing terms work. Cobalt spinel? Marketing term. Ceylon blue spinel? Marketing term again. Both of which are huge red flags and they BOTH exist in the ad that this spinel was bought from.

I'm starting to feel like this is a dead horse.

 

[minousbijoux]

LD: Thanks for the pix and history. Yes, brown modifiers are a sign of a lower quality stone - that was where I was going - there seem to be very few high caliber stones available and I would never attempt one on ebay; its just littered with little bits of brownish stuff (I was going to call it something else, but thought better of it). Same, most of the time, for color change garnets. Why would anyone want something that goes to two different muddy shades of ugly? I know I'm preaching to the choir

But that one seems so pure in hue I just love it - I guess the commonality between the two colors would be the blue. Just lovely and pure.

 

[john gem]

I also second Frekechild's post:

STOP GOING TO APPRAISERS. SEND THEM TO GEM LABS.
It's almost as if you enjoy the feeling of buying stones for a deal and finding out what they are supossedly worth more so than the gems themselves. Make sense. Ity's like fleamarket(ebay) shopping. You go to a fleamarket looking for that item that is a diamond in the rough. You buy it for $3 then find out it's worth $300. It's called fleamarket fever. Like "American Pickers" on history channel. The hunt is more fun than the find and the finding out what they are worth is the icing on the cake. You consistantly send them to appraisers and never to gem labs. That tells me you could care less about your gems and more about finding out what they are "worth" and how good a deal you got and shopper you are.

Your appraisers are feeding you a line of bull. Pay me some money and I will tell you what you want to hear so you come back time and time again. If I go to an appraiser with a stone I bought for $50 and they tell me it's worth only $100 but then I take it to a second appraiser who sayds it's worth $2000 who do you think I will go back to next time.

Steve, where are your appraisal reports at? Can you show a picture of one please?

What you must understand is the people on here, me included, have no vested interest in your stones. We are third party people. We neither gain nor lose from our conclusions. The people you buy stones from do and the appraisers you give you stones to do.

Have you noticed that almost all the people on Pricescope send their stones to gem labs?(well the more expensive ones and the ones not from trusted sellers/custom cutters). Almost no one sends them to get appraised except a few. You send all of your stones to appraisers and none to gem labs. Thats backwards, buddy That is why I believe you enjoy the hunt for the stone and the "deals" you think you got more so than the stones themselves. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is the appraisals.

Here is a snippet from gemsociety
"There are no laws or regulations regarding gem appraisals. Many people write appraisals that do not have the experience to arrive at an accurate value. Still others take advantage in the lack of regulation and purposely write appraisals at highly inflated values. So, do not give much merit to an appraisal unless it is from a highly respected company."

Here is a snippet from gemselect:

"What is the customer really looking for when he asks his gem dealer for an appraisal of a gem that has already been priced? Does he simply want to know that he got a good deal on the stone? Or is wondering how much he can get for it when he sells it? The first question can only be answered by looking at the prices of comparable stones in the market, presumably something the customer already did before he made his purchase. The second question depends very much on market conditions when it comes time to offer the gem for sale.

There are people who professionally offer appraisals of gemstones and jewelry. Most often these appraisals are done for insurance purposes and specify the "replacement value" of the item. Buyers who are thrilled to receive a higher than expected appraisal on a gem are less thrilled when they discover this means only that they have to pay a higher premium to insure it. The problem with the appraisal industry is that it is not regulated and the appraisal mainly constitutes the opinion of the appraiser. If the appraisal included an offer to buy the item at the appraised price, then that would be an appraisal worth taking seriously!

The issue of gemstones appraisals is quite separate from the issue of gemstone certification, where a recognized gemological laboratory identifies a gem through scientific testing. But these certifications do not set a value on a gemstone. In fact in most cases they do not assess the grade of the gem at all, but certify its type, size, weight, color, clarity and (often) treatment.

The value of a gemstone is determined in the marketplace. Prices for comparable items do vary, as smart buyers know, since the prices that dealers pay for gems vary according to where they buy and in what volume. But it's very unlikely that a dealer will sell you a gemstone for $100 if he really thinks it's worth $300."

Steve, everyone on here enjoys your stones, pendants, and pictures. I have read all of their post(almost all) from going back and looking at your pendants. They are all your friends[online] and they want to see what's best for you as I am sure they would want you to do for them. You have 30 something threads with nothing but praise and positive reply's and then you have this thread with your friends pointing out all the red flags they see. Thats a pretty good track record if you ask me. Don't get flustered or think you are catching flak We are all speaking the truth. If you don't think so then maybe all the good posts about all your other stones and pendants in the other 30 odd threads were not true either. Keep your chin up, bud and keep making those sweet pendants.

 

[LD]

**post removed by moderator**:

The testing equipment at labs are designed to test without human bias. They test chemical compositions, determine origin and identify treatments not apparent using the equipment that collectors and appraisers use. The results are without bias. Machine reports don't tell us what we want to hear and the report is objective and factual. Very rarely do the lab personnel meet the people to whom the stone belongs and even if they did, the result is the result. It's not based on somebody looking at a book and then perhaps wanting to have somebody's business in the future. That's the fundamental difference.

There's a reason we all send our stones to labs - it's because over the years we've woken up to the fact that it's the only way to verify our beloved gemstones. Synthetics, treatments have gone beyond the stage where we, who have testing equipment at home, can check and be 100% sure of what we've got.

 

[colormyworld]

Steve you are the only one around who has seen the stone in person. If you are satisfied. That is all that really counts.

 

[john gem]

Steve, this may help justify what we have been saying about your "russian" alexandrites and give you more pause when someone sells you a stone and tells you it''s this or it's that. I spoke with David Weinberg at Multicoulor. He[David] was a contributor and sponser as well as Multicolour(who I recommend by the way)"The Alexandrite gemstone encyclopedia" This is a quote taken from online site "Alexandrite: One of the harest and most important gemstones"
"Although many prospective buyers rarely know that alexandrite is among the rarest and most expensive of gems, sales of the best stones remain as strong as ever. The Alexandrite Gemstone Encyclopedia was designed and written for people looking for reliable and accurate information about alexandrite whether they are trying to purchase a stone, or just trying to improve their knowledge and understanding of the world of alexandrite", - said David Weinberg, Director and Senior Gemologist at Multicolour Gems Ltd.

David also wrote/authored "Alexandrite: The Tsarstone Collectors Guide"
Here is a quote from that: "On 17 April 1834, the Russian Empire was celebrating the sixteenth
birthday of the future Tsar Alexander II, one of the most controversial
characters in Russian history. At around the same time, a colour
changing gemstone was found in the Urals's Izumrudnye Kopi (Emerald
mines) on the Tokovaya River, 85 versts (96 kilometres) to the east of
Ekaterinburg and the noble story of the most scarce and fascinating
precious stone was born and irrevocably associated with Alexander II,
through being named in his honour - Alexandrite

Here is a quote from Alexandrite.net when it was asked and replued to by David Weinberg at Multicoulor.
"Where can I test and appraise my alexandrites"
reply is
"The most well known gemological laboratories are listed below and all of them are equipped to test alexandrite" [he has a list of many countries in the USA it says:
GIA, AGL, and AGTA
Then it goes on to say:
" A good appraisal takes time, expertise and a lot of experience especially with alexandrite. "
"Your best choice is a professional appraiser from a major appraisal organizations, with standards of education and codes of ethics. To protect the client they use methodologies that provide some assurance of accuracy."
These are some recommended ones to go to, Steve, if you want an appraisal of alexandrite
"The National Association of Jewelry Appraisers"
The International Society of Appraisers"
The American Society of Appraisers "

These are people who have seen alexandrite many many times and can properly assess yours.

I think it's safe to say that David is probably one of the foremost experts in Alexandrite in the world. Proverbially he has "written the book" on alexandrite. If anything he is much more knowledgeable than any of us on here except maybe Loving Diamonds who seems to have a passion and affinity for them as well.
I showed David your thread and accompying pictures and text, Steve, and he said
"I'm am 99% sure it's not russian"
"I never see russian alexandrite in Bangkok and there are very few around anyways"[please note they are based in bangkok mind you]
"I saw one 15 years ago and was unimpressed"
He also said that he can't really be sure without a lab report.

Steve, if that doesn't help convince you then I don't know what will. I hope it finds you well.

 

[movie zombie]

i can't believe this thread still has life. the OP has been provided with MUCH info to pursue should he wish to verify his investment. one can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink comes to mind.....

everyone has had the OP's best interest at heart. i would remind the OP that NO ONE will watch your $ any better than you do. so if you plan to sell these stones at any time, realize that now is the time to get that evaluation of the stone's authenticity. paper from a recognized gemologist appraiser will only add value to your stones.

MoZo

 

[john gem]

Steve, also please keep me/us informed as to your next pendant projects. I am wondering what your next stone pendants you are going to do is. Do you have a morganite one yet?

 

[m76steve]

john gem-ill sit in shadow & definitely watch ur back-i have a kunzite @ 20 cts in pendent now...

 

[john gem]

Sounds good, Steve! I don't recall seeing a Kunzite pendant yet so glad to hear thats coming up. I wonder what setup of the pendant you will do(same style I know). Kunzites tend to be larger usually so I wonder if you will do less stones in the pendant or go for color and smaller kunzites to have more in the pendant or .....???....

 

[m76steve]

john gem-dont let anybody else see this pic-20 ct. kunzite in 14 kt yel....

 

[movie zombie]

hopefully, steve, you were joking because anyone doing a search will be able to see your kunsite.

MoZo

 

[m76steve]

moviezombie-im bowing in front of the screen to u-u caught on quick-me....

 

[minousbijoux]

moviezombie-im bowing in front of the screen to u-u caught on quick-me....

Oh, yay, Steve, you're back with your sense of humor! I am happy to see it - and you - because for a minute there I thought you'd pack up and leave us forever...

 

[m76steve]

MBJ-ur sweet-ill stay in the background-will watch-still bleeding a little-never lost my sence of whatever...

 

[john gem]

Yes, Steve, all of these people are your friends. They have given nothing but praise to you and your stones and pendants in all the other threads. In this thread they see something that bothers them and as friends it's their obligation to point it out and try to add what they see wrong. If they were not your friends then they wouldn't post or could care less. I see a bunch of people concerned about some things and trying to help as well as I. I am glad you have some humor about it all. Keep up the good work. I would strongly recommend sending all your pendants for lab reports. Not to just "show" what they are as you are the only one that matters to but I think it would be cool to have each pendant have it's own lab report all from the same lab. Then have some kind of setup where you have a seperate box for each pendant with the report mounted next to it all fancy looking. So when your wife or you is not using or wearing a pendant they each have a nice box mounted or on the hutch with each seperate pendant with the official looking lab report saying "colombian emeralds" or "kunzite" etc. Just an idea

 

[m76steve]

john gem-to b real-even with an official lab report-if i were to sell anything im looking at a portion of what i pay or what the lab says its worth-u never get full value-u get a portion maby half of appraisal or less-nobody wants to pay top dollar-all want deals-u shop make offers, negociate & come away with tears in the eyes or drulling down ur chin anyway-the official reports add a little validity to ur junk-whatever-am watching-best to all even treenbean-me...

 

[movie zombie]

john gem-to b real-even with an official lab report-if i were to sell anything im looking at a portion of what i pay or what the lab says its worth-u never get full value-u get a portion maby half of appraisal or less-nobody wants to pay top dollar-all want deals-u shop make offers, negociate & come away with tears in the eyes or drulling down ur chin anyway-the reports add a little validity to ur -whatever-am watching-best to all even treenbean-me...

no, no, no, say it isn't true.....junk?! you bought junk?! your wife wears junk?! i have some very inexpensive pieces but by all that is in the heavens i wouldn't refer to it as junk.......more like i outgrew that phase of my life and the need to have that type of jewelry......LOL ......and it was a good thing, too! [admittedly, i still own them as a sentimental attachment to that period of my life.]

MoZo

ps yes, a report would add little validity to anyone's junk....if its junk. if its not, well, then that is a different story. well documented stones and/or jewelry are more valuable than undocumented. no one wants to pay top dollar for the undocumented stone and/or jewelry piece.

 

[VapidLapid]

john gem-to b real-even with an official lab report-if i were to sell anything im looking at a portion of what i pay or what the lab says its worth-u never get full value-u get a portion maby half of appraisal or less-nobody wants to pay top dollar-all want deals-u shop make offers, negociate & come away with tears in the eyes or drulling down ur chin anyway-the official reports add a little validity to ur junk-whatever-am watching-best to all even treenbean-me...

I have to wonder then what full value is? IMO what you get is what determines what full value is for that item on that day in that place with that buyer. And if appraisals state a value for something that can NEVER be realized that appraisal is a valueless scam that wasnt worth what it cost. If you can only ever get back a portion of what you paid than you have already over-paid and your appraisals are just an additional expense for a fiction.

 

[T L]

what the lab says its worth

Just as a note to people in general, and many of you already know this, reputable gem labs do not provide a value on a stone. They just report on the variables about a gem such as if it's natural/sythetic, color, tone, hue, clarity, type and amount of treatment, and origin. This information can be used by an appraiser to designate a value, which, depending on the appraiser, is realistic or not. Appraisers use some guidelines like past auction values, retail store equivalent values, or they look in Antoinette Matlin's book, which I daresay is a bit unrealistic for some gems. I honestly don't know where she gets her values too, but many television gem shows use her book to give stones over inflated values.

Maybe there's some confusion on Steve's part thinking that a lab is no better than an appraiser in giving a value. A lab report is meant to supplement an appraisal, and they are highly respected by the gem industry from certain labs. An appraisal from Mr. Joe Shmoe by itself doesn't mean diddly squat to anyone in the industry looking to place a value on a stone, but it can to some uneducated consumer.

The only thing an appraisal by iteslf is good for is for obtaining insurance on a piece. If your appraiser is giving over inflated values, then you're throwing more money away on insurance premiums.

 

[chrono]

Steve,
I’m sorry to have to disagree with you about the lab reports. I would never buy any high value items without the stone accompanied by a reputable lab report. To me, an appraisal is worthless unless it is based on the lab report. A lab report doesn’t tell anybody how much it is worth or the value; what it tells is more important – it tells the facts of what the stone is based on scientific testing. An appraisal for me, is only for insurance purposes.

I think we should start a new thread on appraisals too because I’ve seen WAY too many over inflated appraisals on diamonds and gemstones.

ETA
I think TL and I cross posted but we are basically saying the same thing.

 

[T L]

Just for informational purposes to for anyone reading this thread, here are some examples of lab reports from the most respected lab for colored stones in the industry. Depending on the quantity of data you need, the lab report will increase in price. For the most expensive gems, and for gems where treatment is more expensive to detect, then the more costly the lab report. However, for someone wanting to protect a potential investment, these reports are very important. As treatments become more and more undetectible, and as time goes by, an older lab report shows the scientific data at the time of the purchase when only certain treatments were in use. An appraisal can be forged and is essentially unverifiable once the appraiser retires, moves, dies, etc. . . .

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/

 

[LD]

Just to clarify further:-

Lab report - will indicate all or some of the following: the gem family, size (measurements), weight, treatments (and amount of treatment in some cases), clarity but reports from respected labs never apportion a value.

Appraisals - give a $ amount/value of the gem.

They are different animals entirely.

For me, the lab report comes first and then the appraisal. A good appraiser can then use the lab report to verify the $ amount they value the gemstone to be.

I don't know if it's the same in the US as the UK but there are generally two types of appraisals, one to determine whether you've paid a fair amount in the first instance and then a second that is for insurance and is a replacement value - typically (if you've bought well) it'll be double and more what you've paid.



John Gem - I wonder if David guessed who I am when he read this thread??

 

[Harriet]

Hi Steve,

Re: Lab Reports
I think it's a question of risk tolerance. If you can afford to write off the cost of a purchase AND the cost of a lab report is disproportionate to your basis, I'm not sure it's worth paying for one.

Re: Appraisals
As the others have pointed out, finding someone who understands the coloured stones market is tough. That said, why not wait until you're actually selling a piece? That way, you'll have a marked-to-market value to use. If you are insuring your collection, it's a different question, of course.

 

[LD]

Hi Steve,

Re: Lab Reports
I think it's a question of risk tolerance. If you can afford to write off the cost of a purchase AND the cost of a lab report is disproportionate to your basis, I'm not sure it's worth paying for one.

Re: Appraisals
As the others have pointed out, finding someone who understands the coloured stones market is tough. That said, why not wait until you're actually selling a piece? That way, you'll have a marked-to-market value to use. If you are insuring your collection, it's a different question, of course.

Harriet, I'm not sure I agree. If somebody is spending almost $1000 on a gemstone believing it to be one thing and never getting it checked out properly then, potentially, that's a lot of money down the drain. Most good vendors will allow you to purchase on the condition of a lab report confirming the stone to be as bought. Most will take the stone back and refund the lab report if it transpires the stone is something different. The cost doesn't have to be excessive. If you pay $50 for an appraisal that isn't worth the paper it's written on and $100 for a lab report, it actually becomes cost effective.

I would agree that if the stone was $100 then a lab report (unless you suspect it to be something significantly different and possibly worth more than you paid) isn't the right route. I only get reports on stones that I buy that have a value of £x or over OR if it's a gemstone that typically has certain types of treatment I find unacceptable and it's a judgement call.

 

[m76steve]

TL- An appraisal can be forged and is essentially unverifiable once the appraiser retires, moves, dies, etc. . . .

the same can b said for a lab report-iv know many people who lost show cars to peeps paying with forged checks & documents-there r many labs who verify-sum use only certain known labs-my bottom line is u try to cover ur bases as well as possible when representing a gem to anybody to let them know this is the real gem & value is accepted as the standard of the days value-me...