Buyer be cautious

[Christinak]

Hello

This is a tale of caution in buying un-certed diamonds from Ivy & Rose and also of poor customer service in dealing with this issue when raised.

So I was delighted to buy a rare F coloured VS stone from @newdiamondworld

Help with design for 0.68ct F antique marquise

Hello So I have a dilemma. I need some help. I have just brought a 0.68ct F coloured antique marquise stone from @newdiamondworld Link here https://ivyandrose.com/products/0-68ct-rare-old-marquise-cut-f-vs-diamond-antique-loose-estate-2-3-carat-natural?utm_medium=shop_web The dilemma is...

www.pricescope.com

I’m in the uk so @newdiamondworld sent the stone straight to David. I asked David to send it to GIA because as she is such an amazing rare stone I thought she deserved to be GIA graded.

The stone came back from GIA as H SI2



I raised this immediately with @newdiamondworld so she could go back to Ivy & Rose. Just to be clear this is an unfortunate situation but in no way is @newdiamondworld responsible as she sold the stone to me in good faith based on Ivy & Rose internal grading. In fact @newdiamondworld has out of her pocket given me a gesture of goodwill.

When raised, the response from Ivy & Rose is extremely disappointing. Stating that they believe the GIA report to be overly technical and refuting the key fact that this stone is both 2 colour grades and 2 clarity grades lower than they stated.

I think the response is not acceptable and is disappointing in not taking any responsibility for the discrepancy between their grading and the GIA grading. It’s clear this stone would have had a different price point on the GIA grading.

Neither of us believe there will be further resolution from Ivy & Rose, but felt it important to post here as a tale of caution.

 

[missy]

Sorry this happened to you. It’s why I won’t buy an uncerted stone from anyone unless it’s small and then I realize the vendor’s grading will be biased in favor of them. In other words for any significant purchase I need a reputable cert

 

[Rfisher]

Im sorry this happened and you are disappointed.

It may be a good idea to see the stone in person before the setting goes any further?

I understand your feelings - but wouldn’t be surprised if the vendor would not have priced it lower with the color and clarity GIA designated.

I, too, put much less stock in this vendor in-house graded diamonds (and their listing pictures of clarity representation) - after a past experience.

 

[Niel]

Sorry this happened to you. It’s why I won’t buy an uncerted stone from anyone unless it’s small and then I realize the vendor’s grading will be biased in favor of them. In other words for any significant purchase I need a reputable cert

I’ll buy all sorts of uncertified diamonds but I trust my judgement.

 

[Niel]

What resolution were you hoping? They’d give you a refund as the second owner of the diamond?

I agree “gia is wrong” is a very silly argument to make. But I’m just curious exactly what resolution would have been acceptable to you. At this point an apology would be the best thing I as a second buyer could hope for.

 

[missy]

I’ll buy all sorts of uncertified diamonds but I trust my judgement.

Yes the more experienced one is and if they can see the stone in person. But if you can’t see it first or are unsure of how to judge color and clarity for yourself it’s wise to have a cert. I’m confident about my evaluation skills of old cuts for example but I never would have bought Bubbalah without a cert. My opinion only. For pricey purchases I want that cert

 

[Mreader]

What resolution were you hoping? They’d give you a refund as the second owner of the diamond?

I agree “gia is wrong” is a very silly argument to make. But I’m just curious exactly what resolution would have been acceptable to you. At this point an apology would be the best thing I as a second buyer could hope for.

Agreed that I&R saying essentially that GIA is incorrect is disappointing (and rather ridiculous lol) but I also agree with Niel here since you bought second hand and at a discount. If you didn’t want to keep it, then I think you could make a case to New World to take it back for a refund. If she actually gave you additional funds, and you are keeping, I think that’s very generous. It looks like a really pretty stone.

 

[Niel]

Yes the more experienced one is and if they can see the stone in person. But if you can’t see it first or are unsure of how to judge color and clarity for yourself it’s wise to have a cert. I’m confident about my evaluation skills of old cuts for example but I never would have bought Bubbalah without a cert. My opinion only. For pricey purchases I want that cert

Yes the more experienced one is and if they can see the stone in person. But if you can’t see it first or are unsure of how to judge color and clarity for yourself it’s wise to have a cert. I’m confident about my evaluation skills of old cuts for example but I never would have bought Bubbalah without a cert. My opinion only. For pricey purchases I want that cert

Sure, to each their own. You said you’d never and just wanted to give the flip side that I will often lol

 

[Rfisher]

then I think you could make a case to New World to take it back for a refund

This is super slippery. (And should be besides the point because I don’t think OP is bringing this up)
Separate countries. The preloved listing isn’t deceiving. It’s stated no returns. The original vendors listing is attached. Sold for a discount -greater than 20% I think?

The original vendor stated ‘rare’ no less than 5 times in their first description paragraph.
That they can’t see the crown cavity with their naked eye, assuming at arms length - doesn’t matter to them.


The last preloved thread that I can think of about upset over original vendor in-house graded diamonds perception -
If these things matter to the 2nd buyer - it’s on that buyer to have that discussion of their perceived exactness with the preloved seller. Before purchase. ‘Sold to me as’ is an unfortunate needed statement in preloved, if applicable.

Edited to add - yeah
The after purchase discount given to OP by the preloved seller was indeed generous.

 

[lulu_ma]

I personally think that the stone looks gorgeous, but I am sorry that you are in this situation.

Anecdotally, I have heard from a couple of different auction house GGs, that they have been getting surprisingly harsh clarity ratings from GIA lately.

I think Garry mentioned that there is some AI used in clarity grading now. I don't know if that is a factor...

 

[DejaWiz]

Sorry to hear that you had to go through this.
What comes to mind is previous discussions regarding in-house grading: the paid employee(s) performing the grading have a vested interest in keeping bias for their paycheck providers and not to the customers. This happens with all segments of every industry, not just the diamond industry. Used vehicles and antiques would be other great examples.

 

[Mreader]

This is super slippery. (And should be besides the point because I don’t think OP is bringing this up)
Separate countries. The preloved listing isn’t deceiving. It’s stated no returns. The original vendors listing is attached. Sold for a discount -greater than 20% I think?

The original vendor stated ‘rare’ no less than 5 times in their first description paragraph.
That they can’t see the crown cavity with their naked eye, assuming at arms length - doesn’t matter to them.


The last preloved thread that I can think of about upset over original vendor in-house graded diamonds perception -
If these things matter to the 2nd buyer - it’s on that buyer to have that discussion of their perceived exactness with the preloved seller. Before purchase. ‘Sold to me as’ is an unfortunate needed statement in preloved, if applicable.

Edited to add - yeah
The after purchase discount given to OP by the preloved seller was indeed generous.

Agree @Rfisher. I think the seller would have been within her rights to say "final sale" even after the GIA cert of course. I guess what I am thinking is that two options could have been ask to return it (forgot a different country - that in fact does complicate things) or just keep it and accept the fact that I&R got it wrong. Usually when you buy from in-house grading many of us know to tack on a couple of color grades lower .

My main point though perhaps not clear (was trying to be delicate) is that it was incredibly generous of seller to give additional monies because I don't think that should have been expected. OP I think you got a great deal on this stone even though it's not an F VS.

 

[Christinak]

I just want to state for absolute clarity (as per my original message), I am not seeking any recourse with the seller to me and they have been over an above in their support and the monies given to me were not requested by me. I do not think @newdiamondworld should be out of pocket.

As to the outcome I was seeking. Firstly this was a big shock. When I said to David that it was a shock, David sent my his unsolicited view of the difference in value this creates and also (after I requested it), a view on the stones value today.

I was hoping Ivy & Rose would make a gesture as their grading is incorrect by quite a margin. Or at least an apology.

As they made neither I thought it worth this forum being aware because for me this isn’t great in terms of the original listing or how they have dealt with it.

 

[Avondale]

What resolution were you hoping? They’d give you a refund as the second owner of the diamond?

I agree “gia is wrong” is a very silly argument to make. But I’m just curious exactly what resolution would have been acceptable to you. At this point an apology would be the best thing I as a second buyer could hope for.

It’s pretty clear from the original post that the person who contacted the vendor was the person who bought from them. @Christinak didn't go to Ivy&Rose, @newdiamondworld did. She has every right to and they most certainly should’ve responded in a more adequate manner, and not just “GIA bad”.

 

[Mreader]

I just want to state for absolute clarity (as per my original message), I am not seeking any recourse with the seller to me and they have been over an above in their support and the monies given to me were not requested by me. I do not think @newdiamondworld should be out of pocket.

As to the outcome I was seeking. Firstly this was a big shock. When I said to David that it was a shock, David sent my his unsolicited view of the difference in value this creates and also (after I requested it), a view on the stones value today.

I was hoping Ivy & Rose would make a gesture as their grading is incorrect by quite a margin. Or at least an apology.

As they made neither I thought it worth this forum being aware because for me this isn’t great in terms of the original listing or how they have dealt with it.

Yes I am glad you told us.

 

[Rfisher]

David sent my his unsolicited view of the difference in value this creates and also (after I requested it), a view on the stones value today.

I wouldn’t let this needle me that much.

Is one available to you currently that fits the description/value better?
A vendor similar to DKJ (I don’t see him as a storefront retail) commenting about pricing on an item from a vendor like I&R (storefront retail) may not be linear.

 

[yssie]

Well… The first buyer bought the diamond from I&R. The end of newdiamondworld’s return period is really the end of I&R’s responsibility for the stone and I&R’s responsibility for buyer happiness. Perhaps newdiamondworld could have negotiated sending the stone to GIA and making price contingent on GIA’s response - but she didn’t. (Which is totally okay!)

I completely agree that saying “GIA was too strict” is stupid, and getting that kind of response when I’m already upset would make my blood boil. There are a few IG vendors who live by this mantra and it just makes them look several screws loose.

But I also think wanting I&R to do anything at this point is unrealistic, and also unfair. I&R had no trade up or buyback policies for stones like this - no other vendor would be expected to offer anything either.

I will say that any suggestions on “retail comp” should be taken with a cellar of salt. A beautiful antique marquise like yours is worth a heck of a lot more than a modern of same colour/clarity!! The sheer rarity of a stone like this makes comps basically impossible to nail down, but we all know you’ll never find this stone at modern marquise pricing…

 

[Niel]

It’s pretty clear from the original post that the person who contacted the vendor was the person who bought from them. @Christinak didn't go to Ivy&Rose, @newdiamondworld did. She has every right to and they most certainly should’ve responded in a more adequate manner, and not just “GIA bad”.

Sorry, maybe I hadn’t had my coffee so I didn’t see it as “pretty clear”.

Still the question of what you wanted out of the second seller contacting their original seller is…. fair? I think unrealistic to expect the original seller to do anything, and I would try to appreciate the unique antique stone for what it is.

 

[tyty333]

Hi @Christinak I do appreciate your "Buyer Beware" on these ungraded stones from I&R. Sometimes I wonder how their stones
can be priced so well and now I may* have the answer.

On another note, I think your marquise is a lovely, unique stone, and hope you can appreciate its cut and history (I know I do).

 

[nala]

Hi @Christinak I do appreciate your "Buyer Beware" on these ungraded stones from I&R. Sometimes I wonder how their stones
can be priced so well and now I may* have the answer.

On another note, I think your marquise is a lovely, unique stone, and hope you can appreciate its cut and history (I know I do).

Agree! There seem to be a lot of threads questioning the quality of their settings, etc. given the very low prices.

 

[glitterata]

What I&R should do about this after it's too late for the original buyer to return the misrepresented diamond is beside the point, in my opinion. I think this is a very helpful thread. I for one now know not to trust I&R's in-house grading and to make any potential purchase from them contingent on a satisfactory GIA report--or, more likely, just avoid buying from them in the first place, since I don't like dealing with people who misrepresent things and blame others (GIA) for it.

 

[Lookinagain]

I understand that you are very disappointed and that statement that GIA is wrong is not an appropriate answer, but I like your diamond and if it were mine, after what you have gone through, I'd ask DK (if that is who still has it) if it is eye clean and if so, I'd move forward. I'm not sure what other option you have except to try to sell it to someone, which may work out for you. You could have DK ship it to the new buyer so that it didn't have to leave the U.S. if the buyer were in the U.S. But again, if it were mine, I'd move forward. I like the stone and the stats wouldn't matter to me if it was eye clean.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

What I&R should do about this after it's too late for the original buyer to return the misrepresented diamond is beside the point, in my opinion. I think this is a very helpful thread. I for one now know not to trust I&R's in-house grading and to make any potential purchase from them contingent on a satisfactory GIA report--or, more likely, just avoid buying from them in the first place, since I don't like dealing with people who misrepresent things and blame others (GIA) for it.

This!

I'm glad @Christinak alerted us, it is a helpful reminder for all uncharted stones. Sorry she had to go through this process. I do hope joy can be found in the diamond regardless because it is lovely and unique.

A difference of 1 color grade and 1 clarity grade is fine, but a jump of two in both categories is too much of a stretch for me to have confidence in the seller.

 

[marymm]

Agree with @RunningwithScissors -- one jump in color grade and/or clarity grade is to be expected (and usually for the worse) but I would be dissatisfied with an ungraded stone turning out to be 2 jumps worse in both color & clarity.

That said, Ivy & Rose's description state their color grade is based on face view while GIA grades color from pavilion; while I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make, personally I have had good experiences with Ivy & Rose and would continue to buy from them.

In the future, however, if I were to buy an uncerted stone over 0.50 carat from Ivy & Rose, I would buy contingent on a GIA report coming back with 1 grade of their estimated color/clarity.

 

[LightBright]

Ivy and Rose are soft on grading IME but their prices are in general good. They DO have a return policy. The criticism of overestimated grading is good to point out to consumers, but if OP had bought from them directly, the point would be mute because RETURN POLICY is in place and price imo was fair even for an H Si2.

I’ve bought all my antique stones based on CUT which I can see with my eyes and dimensions. This rare coveted cut in a higher color than expected to find, looks very good.

Then I look at price. Prices right now are extremely high for real antique, well cut Marquise diamonds. Antique Movals which yours looks like are even more pricey because they are more rare (and I like them better).

Unless you are someone who hates H color stones (which are pretty white to me) and really needs F and up, I’d just be thankful it’s an H and enjoy. Because I think if you look at comps, and if you look at other antique Marquise/Moval cuts (that might not be as white, or well cut, and are hard to find) you did not do too badly, especially with an additional discount.

 

[yssie]

from Ivy & Rose, I would buy contingent on a GIA report coming back with 1 grade of their estimated color/clarity.

Just to add that I’ve done this with I&R and I was very happy with my experience.

I bought a pair of stones graded in-house as S/T, VS. I wanted clarity to come back within one grade of stated, colour to come back within two split grades of stated (I know it’s a bit of a guessing game lower in the alphabet), and colour to also come back within one split grade of each other. I never expect in-house grading to match GIA so I was happily surprised when my stones were graded S/T and U/V VS.

That’s not to discount the fact that F VS is not H SI2. And that grading in the colourless/near-colourless range is much easier than in the split grades. Just to say that I&R aren’t always hugely off and they’re amenable to negotiation re. Certification.

 

[Jax172]

I agree with Yssie on this. They are not really obligated to do anything for either of you at this point in the process. Because where does it stop? Are they obligated up to two buyers down the road? 5? 10? Forever because one of their employees at one point in time thought the stone warranted an F VS grade?

At what point does their estimate no longer obligate them to some kind of refund or apology? In my opinion it ends after the buyer that bought the stone directly from them accepts the stone and does not return it during the return period.

When you buy an ungraded stone you are accepting a risk that the seller's opinion will or won't match an industry accepted expert opinion. You can either accept that risk or request it be certed before purchase. Which you still could have done as a second buyer with the person selling it to you. If either of you wanted to negotiate a price based on industry agreed expert opinion than that would have been on her to request before buying it from Ivy and Rose and on you to request from the seller that sold it to you. Neither of you made that agreement in either sale so lesson learned.

I appreciate you wanting to "warn" others but I think the real lesson is not that Ivy and Rose sucks at grading or that they are a bad vendor for not compensating you or the original buyer but that we need to be mindful of what we are buying and accepting because no one else is liable for our decisions after the fact. An uncerted stone is just that and when you accept a sellers opinion as fact and make the deal you can't go back later and complain. So if its a significant purchase alsways request that the stone be graded by an expert before making the deal.

In any case the stone is still very cool and valuable to own regardless of the grading. Enjoy it.

 

[autumngems]

Thanks for putting this out there, I have looked at their items but I won't be purchasing from them now.

 

[kenny]

Buyer be educated!

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

OP, thank you for publishing this. I've considered buying from I & R but not now. Too close to the weasel family, esp. when there are reputable sellers like DbL with beautiful stones and rings.