Bloody inclusions: Purplish Pink tourmaline

[blithesome71]

Need your honest opinions & comments. Thanks a lot in advance ^__^

I was lurking on the net when I came across this "fatty" purplish pink tourmaline. However, the clarity looks hideous to me. I mean, it''s as if it was murdered or shot and bloody.

But then, I saw a similar gem that was recut by RH and the result is very dramatic & beautiful... So I was wonderin'' if this one is a good candidate and will likely have a nice result after recutting...

Here''s the vendor pics:

 

[blithesome71]

And this is my inspiration from another PSer... Anita''s Blue Green Tourmaline (recut by RH)

 

[RockHugger]

Its a pretty color. If its not expensive, then snag it and why not try a recut. Those needles always look like bloody death from a high magnification, and might not look THAT bad from eye lvl.
I have heard tourmalines are a bit touchy to cutting due to an internal pressure. I would ask a lapidary about recutting them. I have seen alot of nice recuts on here though so I am not 100% sure.

 

[chrono]

I would not hazard any guesses because RH is a very highly skilled cutter and Anita’s tourmaline is a cuprian (if I’m not mistaken). The pink tourmaline you are thinking of recutting is probably very inexpensive and coupled with RH’s high cutting fee, it may not be a cost effective move in addition to taking on any and all cutting risks. All candidates for recutting need to be examined on an individual basis by the lapidary as they are all different.

 

[Barrett]

That pink looks very very similar to a "dyefused" pink tourmaline that "gringa gems" posted over on Robert James website..very very similar...i would link you to the page byt i doin''t think thats allowed on PS..it''s under the "synthetics and treatments sections"

The key to your excellent photos is what you have already noticed....this is not a natural tube inclusions. This is a damaged growth tube from treatment, which is a clear indicator for also the reason you said....they don''t occur naturally in Brazilian tourmaline.....or any tourmaline for that matter that is untreated.[end quote]
Not saying it is but when I saw that pic the foirst thing that came to mind was her post about a very similar looking pink with the same red ''bloody" lines

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

I do not think that recutting would help much and here is why. The inclusions are high relief which means they stand out compared to the rest of the stone color. The inclusions also run deep into the stone, If you look at the side shots you will notice that the inclusions run almost the entire depth of the stone. So they would not be able to be cut out or hidden without a substantial loss of weight. Recutting a stone that has inclusions like that is always interesting as well because as a cutter you never know what will happen. The stone may be stressed, inclusions can fall out during cutting or polishing, or they may "open up" and start to crack which is always interesting. That is my opinion as a cutter. You might save yourself some headache by not buying it.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I''d send pictures of the stone to recutters to see what they think about it.

 

[Arcadian]

I''d gather you could find pink tourm on many a custom cutter''s website for sale with a really nice cut on it.



-A

 

[Lady_Disdain]

As the very knowledgeable posters have said, I don''t think the colour of this stone merits a recut. You can find lovely tourmaline, without the inclusions, in many sites.

 

[LD]

Amguy do you not think they''re copper inclusions? I''ve seen similar inclusions in a Tourmaline.

I actually came across that stone the other day on my hunt around a certain large site but I can''t remember the vendor otherwise I''d go and check out some of his/her others stones for you.

I also can''t remember the price but the problem is that even with a recut, the colour of those inclusions will make them stand out much more than the green Paraiba Tourmaline recut you posted. In real life they will look rusty (if that makes sense)! Are you happy to wear a gem with very visible inclusions?

 

[Michael_E]

This report by the GIA has pictures of similar inclusions in tourmaline, both before and after heating: GIA tourmaline report

To my eye there is not much difference in those inclusions either before or after heating. The other inclusions in the stones have some obvious changes but not those inclusions. I suppose that you should draw your own inclusion conclusions ?

As for the result after cutting, nope, I think that a better cut could turn those inclusions into reflectors which would cause you to see their reflection from the other side of the stone.

 

[LD]

Date: 2/24/2010 2:38:43 PM
Author: Michael_E
This report by the GIA has pictures of similar inclusions in tourmaline, both before and after heating: GIA tourmaline report

To my eye there is not much difference in those inclusions either before or after heating. The other inclusions in the stones have some obvious changes but not those inclusions. I suppose that you should draw your own inclusion conclusions ?

As for the result after cutting, nope, I think that a better cut could turn those inclusions into reflectors which would cause you to see their reflection from the other side of the stone.

Thank you Michael - that report is fascinating! I''m amazed that heating may make the copper inclusions more prominent although I have to say that the heating did nothing for the colour of those poor little gems!

 

[chrono]

Date: 2/24/2010 3:06:21 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Thank you Michael - that report is fascinating! I'm amazed that heating may make the copper inclusions more prominent although I have to say that the heating did nothing for the colour of those poor little gems!

Those poor things actually look worse after heating. And thank you, Michael, for the report too; it was good reading material.

 

[T L]

Date: 2/24/2010 7:43:22 AM
Author: Chrono

I would not hazard any guesses because RH is a very highly skilled cutter and Anita’s tourmaline is a cuprian (if I’m not mistaken). The pink tourmaline you are thinking of recutting is probably very inexpensive and coupled with RH’s high cutting fee, it may not be a cost effective move in addition to taking on any and all cutting risks. All candidates for recutting need to be examined on an individual basis by the lapidary as they are all different.

Big ditto!

 

[Barrett]

Here is a pic of "gringagems' stone she picked up in Teofilo Otoni..the red lines are all the way in the interior of the stone..not on the surface or anything..and not nearly as prevelant as the stone you posted has but a dye treatment nonetheless

 

[Barrett]

Here is another

 

[Barrett]

and here is a phoito of a dyefused tourmaline off Robert James website ISG showing similar tubes like yours filled with a reddish type dye

 

[Barrett]

Like I said..have no idea from looking at a pic whether it is or not but when i saw that those pics of yours the first thing that popped into my head was these pics that I posted..no idea without testing but just to show eveyone..those in your original pics look like any other growth tubes to me but they sure have a strong red color to them which raises flags

 

[Stone Hunter]

I think that the dripping blood is very very obvious against the background color of the stone. I would not buy it to recut it.

And a stone has to have a certain depth for a recut. Best bet is to ask a cutter about it.

Good Luck!

 

[blithesome71]

Micheal E, that report is so informative. Thanks a lot. Same to you Amguy, those photos are quite helpful and those bits of info about "dyefused" tourmaline. I''ve always thought that the only treatment done to tourmalines is heat. Now I''ll be more cautious when it comes to "cuprian" types with copper inclusions.

I''ve also checked my email today and I received a response from the seller. He said that this gem is heated and he didn''t disclose if there''s any other treatment done. (Perhaps the heat treatment made the copper inclusions more visible)

But anyway, after reading & contemplating on all your sensible advise, I''ve decided to pass on this gem and save myself from headache for not buying it. As another reliable poster said, it''s not cost effective to have this recut esp. by RH (inexpensive gem; high cutting cost) It''s severely included (yes jim, the inclusions seems to run deep into the stone) and I''m not sure how much other treatment apart from heat was done on this gem. As much as possible, I want an untreated stone... So there.

Everyone, thanks heaps for all your helpful & knowledgeable advise. Truly appreciated.

BTW, this tourmaline is 5.65ct for only *drumroll*.........$100!

Later*

 

[Barrett]

Just curious where you found out it was a cuprian at? Does it say that in the ad..maybe i missed it..if it has been heated then it would have driven off the manganese ... i think M3+ or M2+(will have to check) which would have left it the color of the copper chromophores but since it remained a pink or purplish-pink then chances are it doesn't have copper or if it does then in such insignifiacant amounts that it in no way contributes to the color whatsoever..so what you are seeing is probably lithium or iron coloring the stone..so copper or no copper doesn't matter..glad you passed blith..you will find something much better i have seen you do it before many times

as far as the dyefusion..the stone i posted from gringa is just a normal pink..not cuprian..and they also do it with blue tourmalines so things be getting dicey..my buddy wayne attended a seminar in tucson by GIA..i am sure other know about it..well they talked about the massive amount of treated and fake stones coming from some well respected and...well here is what wayne said(he is my benitoite hookup)
"The focus of the seminar was mainly aimed at some of the large purchasers from the mines, that were buying directly from the mines, then treating the rough and selling it to unsuspecting wholesalers. They were sadly saying that unless you dig it yourself or purchase it directly from the mine owner, it has become almost impossible to know what you are buying. Unless you have a lab and can do chemical and spectral analysis, the average dealer has know way of knowing if the rough they are purchasing is treated or even from the country of origin. They can only take the word of their suppliers. There have been many cases of tourmaline, topaz, and many other "rare finds", they have never been proven finds, yet this material is showing up in the market. Long time, very respected dealers, are being scammed and it's hurting reputations. This is the main reason I moved away from supplying rough except that purchased directly from the mine owners or self collected"

 

[blithesome71]

Hi AmGuy, the ad says it''s a purple tourmaline (but it looks purplish pink to me) and the seller just said that it''s a copper bearing tourmaline and was heated. Perhaps like what you said: "They can only take the word of their suppliers.".. But this seller has also some blue-green paraibas with GIT Memo. like a 2 ct cuprian for $400. Quite tempting especially the pics but I guess I''ll just keep my money for now and save it for something better later.

 

[T L]

Blithsome, be leary of cuprians even with GIT memos. Just because it has a GIT memo, does not mean the stone is glowy or a very desirable saturated blue/green. These stones are often photoshopped to look glowy as well.

 

[T L]

Date: 2/24/2010 8:08:57 PM
Author: blithesome71
BTW, this tourmaline is 5.65ct for only *drumroll*.........$100!

Later*

I personally wouldn't pay that price for that. I've purchased much nicer stones for similar money on ebay. Size isn't everything.

I helped Anita find that cuprian a long time ago, but the seller is no longer selling on ebay.

 

[blithesome71]

Date: 2/24/2010 11:16:02 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 2/24/2010 8:08:57 PM
Author: blithesome71
BTW, this tourmaline is 5.65ct for only *drumroll*.........$100!

Later*

I personally wouldn''t pay that price for that. I''ve purchased much nicer stones for similar money on ebay. Size isn''t everything.

I helped Anita find that cuprian a long time ago, but the seller is no longer selling on ebay.

Yes I think her thread about her cuprian was back in 2006. I think a lot of nicer cuprians (that are also good candidate for recut) were on ebay that time. Now, I''ve searched high & low (still on ebay) and no good. Yeah, it''s sad that the seller where anita got her cuprian is no longer on ebay... I wish some good sellers with nice/decent pieces would come along... *fingers-crossed*

 

[T L]

Date: 2/25/2010 12:01:04 AM
Author: blithesome71

Date: 2/24/2010 11:16:02 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 2/24/2010 8:08:57 PM
Author: blithesome71
BTW, this tourmaline is 5.65ct for only *drumroll*.........$100!

Later*

I personally wouldn''t pay that price for that. I''ve purchased much nicer stones for similar money on ebay. Size isn''t everything.

I helped Anita find that cuprian a long time ago, but the seller is no longer selling on ebay.

Yes I think her thread about her cuprian was back in 2006. I think a lot of nicer cuprians (that are also good candidate for recut) were on ebay that time. Now, I''ve searched high & low (still on ebay) and no good. Yeah, it''s sad that the seller where anita got her cuprian is no longer on ebay... I wish some good sellers with nice/decent pieces would come along... *fingers-crossed*

Last time I contacted her seller (he''s the one I sent her to) his prices went up big time, and there was a shortage of nice Mozambique material. Back in 2005/6, there was much more available. It has since dried up and now allmost all the cuprians on ebay are photoshopped to death, or not really cuprians.

 

[Barrett]

Sorry..wanted to add her full name..some of you know "gringagems" from Brazil but wanted to put her real name in there which is Tenney Naumer for credit to the dyefused pink I posted..thanks Tenny

 

[LD]

Amguy thanks for the further photos. I''ve got to admit the second photo does look similar. In the first photo the inclusion looks most odd. I''ve never seen one like that before and it certainly looks like man has intervened somehow! It doesn''t look like a natural inclusion (if you know what I mean)!

 

[Gringa Perdida]

Date: 2/25/2010 9:38:12 AM
Author: amethystguy
Sorry..wanted to add her full name..some of you know ''gringagems'' from Brazil but wanted to put her real name in there which is Tenney Naumer for credit to the dyefused pink I posted..thanks Tenny

So funny "thanks Tenny" LOL

well, it was even spelled incorrectly in gold-embossed print on the cover of my high school yearbook.

btw, the cherry red stuff looks like it was "squirted" into the fissure.

Best,

Tenney

 

[Barrett]

I spelled it right the first time but not the last time..LOL..i get to typing fast and never ever check my spelling