Beware of eBay seller specialnext

[zeolite]

This Thailand based eBay seller has a 99.1% good feedback, based on 221 reports.

I purchased the very intense “apatite” pictured below, for a bid of $25 + $9 shipping. I purchased it AFTER a purple apatite of somewhat similar color was reported on gemologyonline.com, recently submitted to GIA and confirmed as natural apatite.

I thought the auction photo was greatly intensified in Photoshop. When I received the gem, it was identical in intensity to the photo.

I always test cut gems when I buy them. An effortless 5 minutes of testing proved it was a synthetic cobalt colored spinel.

When I reported to the seller that it was not as represented, I didn’t just give my word. I told him: apatite has a refractive index of 1.642-1.646. This stone has a refractive index of 1.726. Apatite had a density of 3.18. So it would sink in 3.05 heavy liquid, and will float in 3.32 heavy liquid. I sent two very clear pictures, showing it sinking in both liquids. It sinks quite fast in 3.32 liquid, and spinel has a density of about 3.60. I included a scan of my GIA gemology degree. I never accused him of fraud. Like Sgt Friday in Dragnet, “just the facts”.

I gave him 8 days to respond. He refused to reply. That made it more clear to me it was intentional fraud. I sent him a second email, outlining what I could do, about online warnings, report to eBay, and negative feedback. He has refused to reply.

I reported the fraud to eBay, expecting nothing from them except stonewalling, to protect their revenue from his eBay store. From eBay website, the path: home>ebay store>specialnext. Their reporting form allowed about 100 letters to describe the problem, hardly enough to explain a complex situation. In that 100 letters, I did say I was a gemologist.

I got a reply from eBay today, not requesting further explanation, and that Paypal would refund my money for this fraud. This makes me think maybe this isn’t the first report of fraud eBay may have received about him. I then went to his store, and it is still operating, it has not yet been shutdown by eBay. eBay may not shut it down, wanting continued fees from his store.

From a business point of view, I find his non-response absolutely stupid. His store has this comment:

Please do not leave a negative or neutral feedback before contacting us, We will try and resolve any problem you may have.

You would think he would try to protect his 99.1% good feedback. I have bent over backwards to give him a chance to respond, and as of today, 26 days later, I have not yet filed negative feedback. I’ll have to issue it soon.
All he had to do was to appease this gemologist, and then go on, merrily ripping off other consumers, who do not have the knowledge and test equipment to confront him. Stupid.

 

[LD]

Thank you VERY much for the warning.

You have been extremely considerate to this seller - much more so than he deserves. Please do leave negative feedback as most people will look at that (hopefully) before bidding.

 

[cushioncutnut]

Thanks for putting this out here! I will keep that seller on my radar!!

 

[Barrett]

Way to go zeo..gonna go grab my cape and take care of this

..I will go post on jameys list of bad ebay sellers..thanks for the heads up

 

[Stone Hunter]

THANK YOU very much for sharing this with us. You did give him every chance to make it right. It''s a PSA to tell us to stay away from him now.

 

[AustenNut]

Thank you for posting this. What would be the most efficient and cost-effective way for a non-gemologist to find out if what they buy is the purported-gem?

 

[Arcadian]

thanks for this. ebay is certainly shark infested waters!

-A

 

[zeolite]

Date: 9/27/2009 6:20:26 PM
Author: AustenNut
Thank you for posting this. What would be the most efficient and cost-effective way for a non-gemologist to find out if what they buy is the purported-gem?

This answer might be in the category that a little knowledge is dangerous. The most important single test you can do on a transparent faceted stone is to measure the refractive index, and then look on a chart to see if that matches with the gemstone it is supposed to be. Refractometers take some skill to use, but it is not that difficult.

A GIA refractometer is $895 according to this:

http://www.gia.edu/nav/toolbar/instruments/product-catalog/index.html

I would comment that the gem identification skill to get a GIA gemologist degree is not that simple. They give you 20 unknown stones and you MUST get 20 correct. 19 is not good enough.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 9/27/2009 6:20:26 PM
Author: AustenNut
Thank you for posting this. What would be the most efficient and cost-effective way for a non-gemologist to find out if what they buy is the purported-gem?

The answer, I think, is not to buy a refractometer. The best way to protect yourself is to buy from dealers who offer certification from recognized gemological labs. That is the standard in the gems industry, and with good reason. The labs are well equipped with the latest diagnostic equipment and, most importantly, their gemologists see thousands of gem samples. The labs put their reputation on the line with every report they issue, and they want to be right 100% of the time.

I have seen many cases where customers took a gem to a jeweller or appraiser or even a graduate gemologist. only to receive an opinion that was wrong. The person identifying the gem simply didn''t have the experience or the access to advanced instruments to make the right call. Some cases are as easy as measuring refractive index and specific gravity, but many are not. These days gem labs use spectrometers extensively to measure absorption spectra and determine chemical composition. Reputable labs have at least two gemologists check a stone before issuing a certificate.

Identification reports from many labs have become quite affordable. A gem without a certificate is just a shiny mineral that could be anything. Keep gem dealers honest by insisting on a certificate, especially when you are dealing with a seller for the first time.

 

[m76steve]

consider urself lucky u got ur purchase price back-ebay/paypal usually stand behind ur purchase as long as u buy buy the rules set by ebay-alot of the sellers r reputable but a slight few r caught with bad stuff-if u r returned whole-consider urself lucky & move on-some of the bad guys do come back with new names & id''s & start selling all over again-it is buyer-beware but ebay is on ur side a little more they used to b-u were lucky-enjoy...

Date: 9/27/2009 3:41:06 PM
Author:zeolite

This Thailand based eBay seller has a 99.1% good feedback, based on 221 reports.

I purchased the very intense “apatite” pictured below, for a bid of $25 + $9 shipping. I purchased it AFTER a purple apatite of somewhat similar color was reported on gemologyonline.com, recently submitted to GIA and confirmed as natural apatite.

I thought the auction photo was greatly intensified in Photoshop. When I received the gem, it was identical in intensity to the photo.

I always test cut gems when I buy them. An effortless 5 minutes of testing proved it was a synthetic cobalt colored spinel.

When I reported to the seller that it was not as represented, I didn’t just give my word. I told him: apatite has a refractive index of 1.642-1.646. This stone has a refractive index of 1.726. Apatite had a density of 3.18. So it would sink in 3.05 heavy liquid, and will float in 3.32 heavy liquid. I sent two very clear pictures, showing it sinking in both liquids. It sinks quite fast in 3.32 liquid, and spinel has a density of about 3.60. I included a scan of my GIA gemology degree. I never accused him of fraud. Like Sgt Friday in Dragnet, “just the facts”.

I gave him 8 days to respond. He refused to reply. That made it more clear to me it was intentional fraud. I sent him a second email, outlining what I could do, about online warnings, report to eBay, and negative feedback. He has refused to reply.

I reported the fraud to eBay, expecting nothing from them except stonewalling, to protect their revenue from his eBay store. From eBay website, the path: home>ebay store>specialnext. Their reporting form allowed about 100 letters to describe the problem, hardly enough to explain a complex situation. In that 100 letters, I did say I was a gemologist.

I got a reply from eBay today, not requesting further explanation, and that Paypal would refund my money for this fraud. This makes me think maybe this isn’t the first report of fraud eBay may have received about him. I then went to his store, and it is still operating, it has not yet been shutdown by eBay. eBay may not shut it down, wanting continued fees from his store.

From a business point of view, I find his non-response absolutely stupid. His store has this comment:

Please do not leave a negative or neutral feedback before contacting us, We will try and resolve any problem you may have.

You would think he would try to protect his 99.1% good feedback. I have bent over backwards to give him a chance to respond, and as of today, 26 days later, I have not yet filed negative feedback. I’ll have to issue it soon.
All he had to do was to appease this gemologist, and then go on, merrily ripping off other consumers, who do not have the knowledge and test equipment to confront him. Stupid.

 

[zeolite]

I have waited 32 days from end of auction, for the seller to reply, to make corrective action. Today, I felt I had to give (negative) feedback), before eBay closed the time window on my feedback. Feedback is restricted to 80 characters, so there is not much room to elaborate. Here is my feedback:

Seller said Brazil apatite. Gemologist said synthetic spinel. Criminal fraud

Then belatedly, I looked at the 0.9% bad feedback, which was 2 replies. Here are their exact comments:

Item was advertised as ceylon sapph but tested as lab sapph

the seller said 100 % natural gemstone, a gemmologist said 100 % doublet

This seems to explain why eBay didn''t ask more details about my "gem". So 3 gemologists now have stated that he is selling synthetics as natural. I wonder how many of the happy 99% buyers have synthetics that they don''t know about?

 

[m76steve]

Date: 9/28/2009 3:41:54 PM
Author: zeolite

I have waited 32 days from end of auction, for the seller to reply, to make corrective action. Today, I felt I had to give (negative) feedback), before eBay closed the time window on my feedback. Feedback is restricted to 80 characters, so there is not much room to elaborate. Here is my feedback:

Seller said Brazil apatite. Gemologist said synthetic spinel. Criminal fraud

Then belatedly, I looked at the 0.9% bad feedback, which was 2 replies. Here are their exact comments:

Item was advertised as ceylon sapph but tested as lab sapph

the seller said 100 % natural gemstone, a gemmologist said 100 % doublet

This seems to explain why eBay didn''t ask more details about my ''gem''. So 3 gemologists now have stated that he is selling synthetics as natural. I wonder how many of the happy 99% buyers have synthetics that they don''t know about?

as soon as u received ur stone u should have had it appraised or id''ed to what it is in fact-u have up to 45 days to respond to any problems u have with ur purchase-put in a claim with pay-pal & allow the process 2 work-i''ve been thru it many times & it does work-the last thing u do is put the feedback in system-wheather good or bad-if bad shows up early u r already putting urself at risk because a neg. is in the system 4 that seller-up to 45 days u still have the upper hand-u have 2 stay on top of things-the system does work-as soon as u knew u had a problem u should notify the seller-keep records-if no satis. then file a claim-up to 45 days-b aware...

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Thank you for your consistent warnings, Zeolite! Much appreciated!

 

[zeolite]

???

When the stone arrived, I was 80'' deep in salt water in the Philippines. I got home 8 days later.

as soon as u received ur stone u should have had it appraised or id''ed

I''m a gemologist, with more than the usual test equipment; I don''t need to "have it id''ed". I said I tested it and in 5 minutes, proved not only that it wasn''t an apatite, but that it was a spinel, and was a synthetic spinel, not a natural one.

??? u r already putting urself at risk

What risk? eBay and Paypal have already agreed to refund my puny $34.

as soon as u knew u had a problem u should notify the seller-keep records

As soon as I tested it, I did notify him with gemological refractive index proof and clear photographs of immersion in heavy liquids, proving it could not be a apatite, and I kept records. I gave him 8 days to respond. He refused to reply.

After 8 days, I gave him a warning of negative feedback, and waited 4 more days for him to respond. He didn''t.

Then I notified ebay, who did not seem surprised, given his past history. I think I was more than patient and more than fair.

 

[morecarats]

I can''t help but admire people who want to do their part to clean up eBay. But it is naive to think the fraudulent sellers can simply be weeded out, one scammer at a time.

The problem on eBay is systemic. eBay allowed fraud to flourish, and it reached the point that buyers realized their chances of getting a fraudulent stone were high. As a result, buyers were only willing to pay very low prices, in the hope they might pick up the occasional bargain. It made it impossible for legitimate sellers to make a profit selling natural stones, so the legitimate sellers left to pursue other channels, and the scammers took over.

This thread really should be titled "Beware of eBay sellers". You can put a great deal of effort into pursuing a particular eBay scammer, but even if you succeed in having him removed from eBay, he''ll soon be back under a new ID. It''s just his cost of doing business. If he finally gives up there are two or three aspiring scammers ready to take his place. There is no shortage of low grade and synthetic material to sell, and the cost of entry for an eBay seller is low. The best way to clean up eBay is to take your business elsewhere.

 

[Barrett]

"I can't help but admire people who want to do their part to clean up eBay. But it is naive to think the fraudulent sellers can simply be weeded out, one scammer at a time"

Personally I can't help but disagree with that pessimistic attitude..same thing applies, as an example, to folks commiting bank fraud..mail fraud or any kind of fraud what have you..that doesn't stop the police or citizens from trying. You get rid of one then another one will pop up someplace else. Does that mean people or law enforcement should stop trying even though it seems pointless? I weeded one out and in the time that they had been selling they must of sold tons of fake stones to people..each time they get booted thats a few more people that won't get ripped off..there name and info is now under jamey's ebay sellers list along with their paypal info..it's a small step but what do you expect from one person..with Zeo and his neg feedback maybe the next person will read it and decide not to buy..that right there makes it worth it..one more person not getting ripped..a small victory but a victory none the less..

there are great deals to be had on ebay also..some of the stones that TL got are fantastic and you could go ahead and tack on an extra $250+ if you bought those same stones anyplace else..

Hey Zeo..here is the response I got from the seller when I asked if they can guarantee there stones are natural and not fake or synthetic..

"I not sure because i buy stone from broker india but i sell stone natural and can certificate all item(Add 20.00 by BGL) or if you receive stone and not happy i full refund after receive stone return thank you."

 

[Barrett]

here is what daniela said who also bought an apatite from this same seller

Thank you, the stone is a synthetic spinel I had it checked out !

Daniela

 

[T L]

I think the most important weapon to have against ebay scammers is called "education." Look, Zeolite is obviously very educated about gemology, and that helped him in this case. There will probably always be scammers on ebay, but I have accumulated a list of trusted sellers like Mastercutgems, Gemlineinc, Welborn and others that we all know that are very reputable.

Look at the wonderful gems Arcadian recently purchased from Exportgems for great pricing. Although there are many gem dealers that we continue to purchase from, I keep going back to ebay because there are some great bargains to be had (in my case), and there would be no way I could get similar pricing elsewhere.

After doing ebay for 15 years, I can see the warning flags most of the time. There will be an occasional synthetic or blah stone that didn''t live up to it''s picture, but my purchases have more than made up for those duds. I even know gem dealers that purchase almost all their goods on ebay and resell them for double and triple what they paid!!

I''m not saying you''re going to get the Hope diamond for fifty bucks, but even my LOGR''s were a great value. Thus I continue to defend ebay, but I do so with the hope that people educate themselves to avoid the scammers and what to look for as warning signals.

Zeolite,
Thanks for exposing this dealer, and bringing his scamming to our attention.

 

[chrono]

What a crook. He obviously doesn’t check his source and just buys for resale.

 

[LD]

Morecarats - you are tarring all Ebay sellers with the same brush. Undeservedly.

I''m another who has made some jaw-droppingly fabulous purchases at a fraction of the cost I would pay elsewhere - and whilst I can test gemstones myself, I am not professionally qualified to do so and so always have my more expensive purchases checked out by a gemmologist.

I applaud anybody who spends their precious time reporting scammers to Ebay and giving feedback to other consumers.

 

[Arcadian]

Date: 9/29/2009 6:23:41 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Morecarats - you are tarring all Ebay sellers with the same brush. Undeservedly.

I''m another who has made some jaw-droppingly fabulous purchases at a fraction of the cost I would pay elsewhere - and whilst I can test gemstones myself, I am not professionally qualified to do so and so always have my more expensive purchases checked out by a gemmologist.

I applaud anybody who spends their precious time reporting scammers to Ebay and giving feedback to other consumers.

+1

-A

 

[haagen_dazs]

this is such a sad state of affairs.
thank you for sharing your experience.
i think everyone has a part to play in warning and cautioning our fellow friends about the dangers of ebay.
i agree that we should just take our business else where

it is disappointing that ebay still lets these fraudsters'' businesses fluorish on ebay. however i think its not an easy task to just shut their stores down (we wish we could do it asap). i believe in the legal world, its always hard to enact something without a ton of evidence. sad but true.

i also sometimes wonder if the sellers themseleves know of the kind of stones they are buying from their wholesalers. maybe they are getting ripped off themseleves too?
nevertheless i strongly believe that it is the onus of the seller to ensure that their goods sold are real and authentic