Be-treated sapphires questions

[mufiin_top]

It''s my understanding that a lot of sapphires are beryllium treated. My main question is, are these treatment usually stable or do be-heated stones require special care? Do they eventually lose their color?

And, in case I am considering a heated stone, how can I verify that it is not Be-treated? It seems like this is not so easily done. Therefore, what is the market value per carat on ambiguous/BE-treated stones, in the event that I decide to buy one?

I am referring both to red ''songea'' sapphires I see on ebay as well as blue be-heated sapphires.

 

[mufiin_top]

To answer my own question...
I see some old articles claiming that Be treating is only surface deep in red stones. Well clearly that is outdated because plenty of ebay sellers are offering beryllium treated rough sapphire...so basically it's stable, otherwise it wouldn't withstand cutting.

Also...I see some amazing stones on ebay...especially spessartites. I don't understand why they sell for a few hundred dollars on ebay and are as good (or better) in color as the 1k+ ones I see on other websites. I am guessing it's mainly markup...and cut, which is cheaper to redo than to spend on these pricy websites.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I would guess that many of the ebay cheap stones that look so good in the pictures, will not look like that in person.

As far as Be treated stones, the color can go all the way through the stone, and it is stable.

 

[T L]

Date: 12/31/2009 4:07:06 PM
Author: mufiin_top
To answer my own question...
I see some old articles claiming that Be treating is only surface deep in red stones. Well clearly that is outdated because plenty of ebay sellers are offering beryllium treated rough sapphire...so basically it's stable, otherwise it wouldn't withstand cutting.

Also...I see some amazing stones on ebay...especially spessartites. I don't understand why they sell for a few hundred dollars on ebay and are as good (or better) in color as the 1k+ ones I see on other websites. I am guessing it's mainly markup...and cut, which is cheaper to redo than to spend on these pricy websites.

Lots of the spessartites on ebay are enhanced in the photos, and what might look like a bright mandarin orange stone, might be a lot more brown in color IRL. I'm finding that very fine vivid orange spessartites without any brown or yellow in them, is like finding a needle in a haystack. There are some nice specimens on ebay, but they are more expensive in price.

As for sapphires on ebay, most of the ones that are indicated as "heated" are be-heated. When buying a sapphire on ebay, know your seller, and get a reputable lab cert with it that also indicates the level of treatment (no treatment, regular heat treatment, or be-heating). I've seen sellers on ebay sell sapphires with certs, but the certs do not give the level of treatment, and this can give buyers a false sense of security.

The newer be-treating can go much deeper into the stone, so the material you were reading, is probably a bit outdated.

 

[chrono]

The old BE diffusion treatment used to be surface only but the new method goes all the way through. It is a stable and permanent process and the BE diffused sapphire requires no extra care. Honest vendors will disclose treatment. Unscrupulous ones will say nothing or evade the issue by using fancy words such as high heat (nice term for BE diffusion) or natural sapphire (but says nothing about treatment) and such verbiage. For something expensive and known to be frequently treated, insist on a cert from a reputable lab like AGL, AIGS, GIA and the like.

As with 99% of stones on eBay, the vendors make the stones look better than they really do. Most will photoshop the picture or toy with the video to improve the appearance of the stone. The actual stone might be darker, windowed, less saturated, etc in person. Others will play with lighting (flood the stone with light) or take a picture of it on a dark background (for light toned stones) or on a reflective surface all in order to make the stone look good. There are good honest eBay vendors out there but those are far and few between.

 

[T L]

. . . or on ebay, many stones are synthetic and passed off as natural, or less expensive versions of look alike gems. For example, there's a lot of iolite being passed off as more expensive tanzanite. With ebay, buyer beware, but there are some reputable ebay sellers.

 

[ma re]

Date: 12/31/2009 6:09:41 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

I''m finding that very fine vivid orange spessartites without any brown or yellow in them...

Shoot me but I can''t resist - how on Earth do you think of having orange without any yellow?

I''m a nerd, I know...

Regarding mufiin_top''s questions; you can''t know if the stone is BE treated unless you get a cert, but considering their costs, many people don''t insist on having one unless it''s a valuable stone in question (several hundred dollars at least). In terms of price of BE stones, I''ve seen them go for anywhere between 50 to 150$ per ct retail, but you might find them for even less on E-Bay I believe.

If you''re looking for an affordable piece of jewellery, a stone that you''ll set in an inexpensive setting and wear just to dress up, BE stones can be a great idea as you get a real sapphire with a nice color and in decent size for not too much money. But if it''s something you''d like to pass on to your kids, I''d save up for a quality stone and a quality setting.

 

[LD]

I can''t add to anything said earlier, other than ..................

if you see a lovely coloured Sapphire at a great price ALWAYS assume BE treatment unless proved otherwise.

 

[mufiin_top]

Hi,

I am fairly sure that this would be a nice genm in person, below. I almost decided to bid on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160389165690&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Anyways, the price wasn''t too bad.

 

[mufiin_top]

After having bought many stones and pieces of jewelry off ebay, I am starting to learn how to distinguish the good gems and sellers from the bad. And I always make sure they have a fair return policy.

 

[mufiin_top]

ma re, why wouldn''t you consider a Be treated stone suitable to pass down to one''s kids?

 

[mufiin_top]

LD, I agree, especially when buying off ebay, that I have to asdsume its be-treated, so that''s why I don''t want to spend a lot on an ebay gem.

 

[ma re]

Date: 1/1/2010 9:49:18 PM
Author: mufiin_top
ma re, why wouldn't you consider a Be treated stone suitable to pass down to one's kids?

Well no particular reason, mostly because generally people want something rare and valuable to make into those special items that will be carried in the family through generations, and BE stones are not really rare nor very valuable. It's also a matter of the setting. If you want a setting that'll last for generations you have to pay quite a lot for it, and rarely will people decide to have a relatively cheap and ordinary stone set into such expensive pieces of jewellery cause it doesen't make too much sense in terms of relative value.

 

[LD]

Totally agree with Mr Ma Re.

Look at it this way ................ would you pass down a real Gucci handbag to your children or a fake Gucci handbag? Which one is going to have some value? The same can be said of Sapphires/BE Sapphires.

 

[mufiin_top]

LD,

I guess I personally would rather spend money on something that is usable vs. authentic for my children. I do not fool myself into thinking that I am buying some outrageuously espensive pretty for my children. If I want to buy something for my kids it will be propertyor commodities for their own future.

 

[LD]

Date: 1/1/2010 9:45:56 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Hi,

I am fairly sure that this would be a nice genm in person, below. I almost decided to bid on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160389165690&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Anyways, the price wasn''t too bad.

Muffin - look at the photo again. Does it look real to you? It doesn''t to me. That has definitely 100% been photoshopped.

A Spess of that colour and size would NEVER sell for that price unless it belonged to somebody who didn''t know anything about gemstones. Since Easternee sells gemstones on Ebay I doubt that''s the case. Sorry!

 

[Kim Bruun]

One thing that strikes me as somewhat suspicious with the seller of that spessartite is this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matching-Pair-Blue-Tanzanite-0-76ct-VVS_W0QQitemZ160391129025QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item25580e67c1

Treatment: Not at all

Gee, I would have thought virtually all tanzanite of that colour had been subject to heat treatment.

 

[mufiin_top]

LD, I think what I don''t understand is how hundreds of gem collectors take these gems they get off ebay and they are told it''s the real thing by their local GGs. I''m not only referring tot his seller, whose feedback is 100% positive, but to a vast array of sellers from thailand on ebay who sell to gem collectors and jewelers.

 

[mufiin_top]

These errors are somewhat common by ebay gem sellers so you definitely have to watch out. But still, it''s a pretty low risk if you know a local GG to take a look at whatever you buy. There is a lot of dirt cheap, authentic tanzanite on ebay.

 

[Arcadian]

Date: 1/4/2010 6:46:36 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/1/2010 9:45:56 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Hi,

I am fairly sure that this would be a nice genm in person, below. I almost decided to bid on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160389165690&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Anyways, the price wasn''t too bad.

Muffin - look at the photo again. Does it look real to you? It doesn''t to me. That has definitely 100% been photoshopped.

A Spess of that colour and size would NEVER sell for that price unless it belonged to somebody who didn''t know anything about gemstones. Since Easternee sells gemstones on Ebay I doubt that''s the case. Sorry!

Muffin,

The stone has been flooded with light and the color could have certainly been photoshopped.

I remember I had showed someone how easy it was to do (took me all of 5 minutes) and they sat there with their mouth open.

And of course there''s also the most comical photoshop on ebay too. I remember someone had put the auction up here, it was supposidly for alexandrite and the stone was green with a photoshoped red circle in the middle...lol

So sometimes and especially with ebay, you can''t always take a picture at face value.

I''ve seen some dog ugly pictures on ebay and the stone in question was amazingly gorgeous in person. (bob kast anyone LOL )

I''m not going to say its impossible to find good deals on ebay because you can. It can take some hard work to sift through all the crap but sure, they can be found. They''re just not going to be right in front of you.

But even for someone that knows their stuff, sometimes you can come up with a lemon. It certainly happens.

Just take care if thats the route you chose to go is what I''m sayin.

-A

 

[T L]

Date: 1/1/2010 9:49:18 PM
Author: mufiin_top
ma re, why wouldn''t you consider a Be treated stone suitable to pass down to one''s kids?

Have you ever seen a be-treated stone before be-treatment?

For many of us, an heirloom piece is something of value and rarity that one would pass down. Some people would pass down a be-treated stone for sentimental value perhaps, but I personally would want to pass down something special, rare, and valuable. It''s a matter of personal taste I guess.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/1/2010 9:45:56 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Hi,

I am fairly sure that this would be a nice genm in person, below. I almost decided to bid on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160389165690&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Anyways, the price wasn''t too bad.

I know for a fact that seller photoshops. Many many years ago, I bought a tourmaline from him, while decent, and quite pretty, looked much better in the photo.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/1/2010 5:50:11 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
I can''t add to anything said earlier, other than ..................

if you see a lovely coloured Sapphire at a great price ALWAYS assume BE treatment unless proved otherwise.

Excellent advice LD!! That also goes for lead filled rublies, resin filled emeralds, stones that are commonly synthesized and treated, etc. . .

 

[mufiin_top]

Value is in the eyes (and heart) of the beholder. For example, diamonds are not really all that rare, but a strictly controlled commodity whose profits go to sometimes questionable sources. As is the case with several colored gems. HAve you seen where peruvian emeralds come from?

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:24:31 PM
Author: mufiin_top
LD, I think what I don''t understand is how hundreds of gem collectors take these gems they get off ebay and they are told it''s the real thing by their local GGs. I''m not only referring tot his seller, whose feedback is 100% positive, but to a vast array of sellers from thailand on ebay who sell to gem collectors and jewelers.

There are Thai sellers that have good reputations on ebay, and I do trust them, but I verify as well. Get a reputable lab certificate (AIGS is recommended since you can validate a particular cert''s authenticity online). Sure, there are hundreds of real gems on ebay, but that doesn''t mean they''re good quality, or untreated.

 

[mufiin_top]

Hi, I have bought several stones off ebay, and have learned to generally distinguish the difference. I think about 90% of what''s on ebay is altered in photos, and so I have my own criteria when I buy something.

If a seller has thousands of positive feedbacks, and I know the stone cannot possibly be that drastically different from the images, then I would say it was a good deal.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:42:16 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Value is in the eyes (and heart) of the beholder. For example, diamonds are not really all that rare, but a strictly controlled commodity whose profits go to sometimes questionable sources. As is the case with several colored gems. HAve you seen where peruvian emeralds come from?

I totally agree that the colorless diamond market is overpriced & overhyped. However, people still pass down white diamonds because they are natural, and have some sentimental and intrinsic value. As for value being in the eyes and heart of the beholder, um, you may not like the Hope diamond, but it's estimated worth is $250 million dollars, so there is monetary value placed on rare colored gems. As a collector, I would like to think I'm buying something that I not only like, but has value.

 

[mufiin_top]

TL,

I haven''t bought anything from this particular seller, but they appear to have a large invenbtory of spessartites like this that they have already sold, and that have glowing reviews.

So my point is that, yes, sure, there is a lot of crap to wade through, but I am fairly sure there are a few decent deals and gem sellers on ebay. Is that particular spess any good? I am not sure, but I would have kicked myself for not taking a chance on it when one like that goes for triple the price elsewhere. It can always ve returned for a refund: that''s my point.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:44:45 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Hi, I have bought several stones off ebay, and have learned to generally distinguish the difference. I think about 90% of what''s on ebay is altered in photos, and so I have my own criteria when I buy something.

If a seller has thousands of positive feedbacks, and I know the stone cannot possibly be that drastically different from the images, then I would say it was a good deal.

Do you also use toolhaus.org? I not only look at the zillions of positive feedbacks, but toolhaus.org, which saves old negatives on a seller that ebay wipes out. Just because someone has 100% positive feedback doesn''t really mean they''ve always had 100% positive feedback. Some sellers also try to bribe buyers into positive feedback as well. Here''s a good thread on that.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ebay-dilemma-should-i-leave-neutral-neg-feedback.105649/

 

[mufiin_top]

TL,

I support the ongoing study and collection of rare gems and am glad there are those like you who keep it going. However, it''s not as if the hobby is about to die out any time soon.

Should I have a malrboro hanging out of my mouth when I say this?

For the rest of us, there''s sparklies that will be handed down as sparklies, not rare specimens.