Bad parenting? What do you think?

[momhappy]

In short, parents let their young child climb on a pricey exhibit in an art museum. Article below.
What do you think - bad parenting?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/horrified-art-lovers-watch-as-children-climb-all-over-10m-work-of-modern-art-at-the-tate-modern-9092451.html

 

[CrisM]

No. Parenting is not the problem. The parents themselves have no sense of boundaries. The children are likely (as children are) delightful in their own right.


Parenting reflects your own character.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Very disrespectful!

 

[yssie]

Yikes! Dreadful parenting - they're lucky there was no damage!

Though I gotta say... I really don't get that sculpture - I don't see art, I see my cats' dream tower

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Yikes! Dreadful parenting - they're lucky there was no damage!

Though I gotta say... I really don't get that sculpture - I don't see art, I see my cats' dream tower

hahaha That is what I was thinking...Kind of wondering how something like that is valued at $10 million and also it doesn't really have any artistic appeal, so the price tag is a bit high, IMO ...If I did put it on my wall, my cat would end up sleeping on it. I'd be labeled a bad kitty mom... lol

Really, though, kids should be taught not to touch the art (whether we like it or not) and also, if a piece is worth that much, it should have an alarm right on the damn thing.

 

[amc80]

Yikes! Dreadful parenting - they're lucky there was no damage!

Though I gotta say... I really don't get that sculpture - I don't see art, I see my cats' dream tower

Bad parents, definitely.

And bad art, in my opinion. It looks like a bunch of floating bookshelves that I can get at Target for $20 a pop.

 

[iLander]

This is AWFUL, horrible parenting! I would have just screamed in shock and fainted.

The piece is about a lot of things; the division of space and the negative space it makes between the solid elements. The protrusions as they relate to the wall and your personal space. The use of color is meant to be attention getting without being overwhelming (it would be red or a jarring color) or submissive (that would be white or other subtle color). The edges are white because they draw your eye into the white depths of the spaces. The overall composition can suggest mobility, either upward or downward, so it implies motion while still maintaining a static form.

So, yeah, you've been schooled. Art schooled.

 

[monarch64]

I think that children often see the true value of material things in life, before their minds have been tainted with the concept of more money=more value.

I also think the whole thing was disrespectful, but the part that upsets me the most is that the piece wasn't built for climbing and how did the parents know it was safe and wouldn't fall out of the wall with the children on it risking their physical safety??? THAT is the truly irresponsible parenting part, in my opinion.

 

[JewelFreak]

The kids obviously got the mobility part, Deb! I call that non-parenting and rude, coarse, crude, aggressive and dumb. Art gallery or not, you teach kids to respect things that are not their own. (You teach them to respect their own things too, come to think of it.)

The piece fails to communicate anything to me except that some folks will buy anything if enough others praise it, but what kind of world do those parents live in, that they reply like that?

--- Laurie

 

[Gypsy]

The kids obviously got the mobility part, Deb! I call that non-parenting and rude, coarse, crude, aggressive and dumb. Art gallery or not, you teach kids to respect things that are not their own. (You teach them to respect their own things too, come to think of it.)

The piece fails to communicate anything to me except that some folks will buy anything if enough others praise it, but what kind of world do those parents live in, that they reply like that?

--- Laurie

This.

 

[momhappy]

No. Parenting is not the problem. The parents themselves have no sense of boundaries. The children are likely (as children are) delightful in their own right.


Parenting reflects your own character.

I guess that I don't understand your post. Are you saying that the lack of boundaries is just a part of the parent's character (and not necessarily a flaw), and the children are simply taking after the parents? How is that not bad parenting? If I walked around using foul language, and my kids started using foul language too, that's still bad parenting because I have a responsibility to teach them right and wrong.

 

[CrisM]

You understood my comments exactly. Unhelpful parenting stems from parents who don't know (best case scenario) or who feel entitled to break social boundaries for whatever reason. Either way, they do their children a disservice.

 

[TooPatient]

The kids obviously got the mobility part, Deb! I call that non-parenting and rude, coarse, crude, aggressive and dumb. Art gallery or not, you teach kids to respect things that are not their own. (You teach them to respect their own things too, come to think of it.)

The piece fails to communicate anything to me except that some folks will buy anything if enough others praise it, but what kind of world do those parents live in, that they reply like that?

--- Laurie

Yes!

Kids (and adults for that matter) need to respect other people -- including their stuff.

You don't make fun of something when others around you are really into it (I live in the area of one of the teams in the Superbowl and don't care for football...). You don't track muddy footprints across the carpet. You don't climb on art (or even touch it!).

I see too many adults who can't manage even moderate respect for other people so I am not surprised to hear such a story. Definitely bad parenting.

 

[momhappy]

As someone who has children, I found this horrifying. It made me cringe because it's parents like this, that give the rest of us a bad name. It really comes as no surprise that some businesses (like restaurants, airlines, etc.) have talked about and/or implemented "kid-free" zones - parents don't parent. Period.
I have always taught my kids that public spaces are shared spaces and we should respect the people and things around us. I realize that there are times when children can't be reasoned with (when they are infants/toddlers), but that's when the responsible parent steps in and removes them. I have never, ever, let my kids cry in a restaurant, throw a tantrum in the middle of the grocery store, etc. because I respect the space of those around me and I would remove them if they became disruptive. There are plenty of places/times where children can be delightful, but it's also important to teach them how to behave in public spaces.
As for the actual art exhibit in the article, it was a sculpture by one of the most famous American artists of the 20th century, David Judd. He was not only an artist, but he designed furniture as well (he was part of the minimalist movement). Despite how anyone feels about the sculpture itself (I don't care for it myself), it still doesn't deserve to be treated like a jungle gym.

 

[monarch64]

Having thought (and read) a bit more about the topic, I don't think these parents were the horrible people everyone's making them out to be. Tate Modern has lots of kid-friendly installations and encourages family outings. For one thing, I give kudos to any parent who is thoughtful enough to expose their child to art and culture, and I think it's great that the family is spending time as a unit doing something they thought would engage the children and they all could experience together (going to the museum, in general, I mean). One *could* speculate that since the installation was not cordoned off, the parents were possibly ignorant of the piece's value and didn't realize the extent of their "mistake." As far as the rebuttal from the mother when confronted by a museum curator, some people have a tendency to become embarrassed and immediately go on the defensive, especially when it involves their children.

We do a lot of beating up on each other in life. I don't know that this exactly calls for the parents being publicly berated and made to feel like total a-holes when most of us (worldwide, not PS specifically) don't know them. The whole thing is kind of sad.

 

[OreoRosies86]

It makes me sad that stuff like this is constantly making the news when there are so many awesome parents out there

 

[momhappy]

^^I guess that I disagree, monarch, and I don't see it as sad. I see that as making excuses for bad parenting. As with anything in life, there are consequences to our actions (which is the backlash the parents have received). Having said that, I respect your opinions and appreciate your responses in this thread.
Also, any art museum that I've ever been in has signs telling you to not touch, details about the exhibit, etc. Sure, there are museums with interactive exhibits, but again, they have signs. Generally speaking, most art galleries are look-but-don't-touch, which is how you would teach your children to behave in such a place (as a responsible parent that is).

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Having thought (and read) a bit more about the topic, I don't think these parents were the horrible people everyone's making them out to be. Tate Modern has lots of kid-friendly installations and encourages family outings. For one thing, I give kudos to any parent who is thoughtful enough to expose their child to art and culture, and I think it's great that the family is spending time as a unit doing something they thought would engage the children and they all could experience together (going to the museum, in general, I mean). One *could* speculate that since the installation was not cordoned off, the parents were possibly ignorant of the piece's value and didn't realize the extent of their "mistake." As far as the rebuttal from the mother when confronted by a museum curator, some people have a tendency to become embarrassed and immediately go on the defensive, especially when it involves their children.

We do a lot of beating up on each other in life. I don't know that this exactly calls for the parents being publicly berated and made to feel like total a-holes when most of us (worldwide, not PS specifically) don't know them. The whole thing is kind of sad.

Was there a sign there that stated not to climb on or touch the art installation? Even though it seems like that would be common sense, maybe there wasn't a sign and the parents were unclear as to which pieces were to interacted especially if other pieces are kid-friendly (and apparently people DO need reminders!). Either way, the safety issue was brought up and is a good point. It wouldn't feel good to be sandwiched between two collapsed metal blocks/step thingies.

Regardless, our society isn't very respectful most of the time. Way too entitled.

 

[monarch64]

^^I guess that I disagree, monarch, and I don't see it as sad. I see that as making excuses for bad parenting. Having said that, I respect your opinions and appreciate your responses in this thread.

Well, I am the last person to make excuses for inappropriate behavior. I read several more articles on this from different sources and am having trouble finding any more details than the one you posted contained. I would like to know more about the situation before I pass judgment on the people's parenting skills, such as was it abundantly clear that this was a piece valued at $10 million? Why wasn't the installation guarded or cordoned off? Were there signs warning the public not to touch? I am searching for a reason why the parents might have assumed it was ok to let the children climb the piece. Is this article, out of all the "bad parenting!" articles in the world making front page news (or whatever, I'm exaggerating) because they did something so terrible, or because of the high value of the piece? I mean, there was no damage, so...

Is this just a good example of how we love to judge others and use their behavior as a way to validate our own, especially when we're feeling smug. I am just as guilty as anyone else of doing so. Which is maybe why it makes me sad.

Now, IF I felt like I had all the details, and IF they included "yes, the parents knew the piece's value and they knew it wasn't to be climbed on" then those people were definitely parenting poorly (well really not at all--they might as well have been 4 year olds themselves) and should never be welcome in Tate Modern again.

 

[momhappy]

^there was no damage, so that makes it ok?
Also, there is a lot of emphasis (in general) being placed on the value of the art exhibit. The amount that the sculpture is worth is clearly up for debate (and really only "worth" what someone would be willing to pay for it). The value of the exhibit in this article was based on the amounts that the artists other sculptures have sold for in the past.
Perhaps I am being too judgmental on the parents, but a lack of common sense parenting is really something that affects all of us. It's really not that hard to teach your kids how to behave in public...

 

[monarch64]

^^I guess that I disagree, monarch, and I don't see it as sad. I see that as making excuses for bad parenting. As with anything in life, there are consequences to our actions (which is the backlash the parents have received). Having said that, I respect your opinions and appreciate your responses in this thread.
Also, any art museum that I've ever been in has signs telling you to not touch, details about the exhibit, etc. Sure, there are museums with interactive exhibits, but again, they have signs. Generally speaking, most art galleries are look-but-don't-touch, which is how you would teach your children to behave in such a place (as a responsible parent that is).

yes, I agree about the signs and the etiquette parents should teach their kids. So, earlier I was saying that I had read up on the Tate Modern itself and it looks like there are many kid-friendly activities. I was thinking maybe they had visited those areas first, either that day or previously and the kids just assumed the DJ piece was climbable due to that? The signs surely exist there, but is it possible the kids ran right up to the piece and the parents continued after them without stopping to read? Total speculation on my part, of course.

And, as the parent of a 20 month old, you bet your sweet bippy I am taking note of all this and I would be SO EMBARRASSED if my husband and I made this sort of faux pas. I think I would literally die.

 

[Indylady]

We do a lot of beating up on each other in life. I don't know that this exactly calls for the parents being publicly berated and made to feel like total a-holes when most of us (worldwide, not PS specifically) don't know them.

I agree, though I wouldn't phrase even phrase it so kindly. People like shock value and pointing fingers--Gawker's tagline "today's gossip is tomorrow's news" comes to mind.

 

[crown1]

We all make mistakes and all parents are at one time or other guilty of bad parenting. This act of the child and the parents failure to correct it make all look bad. I think it is ok to acknowledge when mistakes are made. If my child had done this I would have been appalled and totally apologetic. Defending the undefensible seems kind of silly to me. When children are in public places or others homes they need to be monitored if they are too young to know how to act. If they are old enough they should be taught to ask permission before lying on furniture or art of others. Had the parents hustled to get the child up and offered apology this would probably not have made the news. Just my take.

 

[chemgirl]

I think their reaction when they were told that the children shouldn't be climbing on the art says it all.

If it were an honnest mistake they would have been embarrassed and told the kids to get off asap. They didn't do that. They started an argument instead.

Bad parenting. Way to teach your kids that rules don't apply to them.

 

[momhappy]

We do a lot of beating up on each other in life. I don't know that this exactly calls for the parents being publicly berated and made to feel like total a-holes when most of us (worldwide, not PS specifically) don't know them.

I agree, though I wouldn't phrase even phrase it so kindly. People like shock value and pointing fingers--Gawker's tagline "today's gossip is tomorrow's news" comes to mind.

I guess this thread wasn't really intended to hash over today's gossip (it's not like I'm posting about deporting Justin Bieber back to Canada, which would truly be considered "today's gossip" ). It was more of a commentary on what folks perceive the role of parenting (in society) to be. Maybe I should have worded it in a way that used the incident as an example as opposed to the main topic. I thought that it would be an interesting discussion on parenting (from both parents and non-parents).

 

[monarch64]

We do a lot of beating up on each other in life. I don't know that this exactly calls for the parents being publicly berated and made to feel like total a-holes when most of us (worldwide, not PS specifically) don't know them.

I agree, though I wouldn't phrase even phrase it so kindly. People like shock value and pointing fingers--Gawker's tagline "today's gossip is tomorrow's news" comes to mind.

I guess this thread wasn't really intended to hash over today's gossip (it's not like I'm posting about deporting Justin Bieber back to Canada, which would truly be considered "today's gossip" ). It was more of a commentary on what folks perceive the role of parenting (in society) to be. Maybe I should have worded it in a way that used the incident as an example as opposed to the main topic. I thought that it would be an interesting discussion on parenting (from both parents and non-parents).

Well, then let's discuss that!

Here is my take on what constitutes good, responsible parenting: I think the parent has a responsibility to guide the child through their formative years in ways that assist the child in becoming someone who is a productive member of society, no matter what culture. The "good" parent will teach their child how to interact positively with other members of society and will act as a role model and resource when the child needs to learn how to go about all of this.

That (very vague statement) said, I will give you an example of what I think is poor, or far too hands-off parenting from somewhat recent personal experience.

I used to work for a retailer whose store housed a giant rock-climbing wall. The wall used to be open to the public, and lessons were taught on certain days of the week. On weekends, however, people used to drop off their children and LEAVE them there to play on the climbing wall, although there was no scheduled instruction on Saturday or Sunday and no formal adult supervision. Finally, the climbing wall was closed with the exception of being used for patrons who wanted to try on climbing shoes and harnesses, because certain parents used the store as a daycare. So, the treasured climbing wall, which was at one point an integral part of the company's business, had to go away because a bunch of rotten apple parents who couldn't be bothered to participate with their children ruined it for everyone else. The climbing area was signed with regard to the no supervision, climb at your own risk policy, and still it was ignored. The owner was not willing to lose his entire life's work (he opened the store as a student back in 1973, so 40 years ago) due to negligent parents.

Here's another piece of anecdata: I worked for an upscale department store company when I first graduated from college. I oversaw the children's department. I had to supervise more children than I can count, clean up urine, and help lost children find their parents somewhere in the huge store many times.

I only have a 20 month old and I didn't do a ton of babysitting growing up or before having a child, so I am certainly not an authority on parenting. I'm learning as I go. But a lot of people don't bother to learn, and I think what I have a problem with isn't parenting style necessarily, but the attitude that children are everyone else's problem to deal with and the parents don't feel they should be held accountable.

Now, I like to talk about solutions to problems, not just the problems themselves. So, how do we keep from having these "bad parents?" Parenting isn't something that is taught in school. The old cliche of "children don't come with an instruction manual" comes to mind. I think we have to rely on each other in some ways to step in when we see parents struggling and offer assistance as human beings, not just as (poorly) paid social workers, counselors, teachers, etc. Except no one really wants to do this. We kind of just want to complain about the bad apples and tsk, tsk because we're doing a great job parenting and it's not our job to parent the bad parents, right?

I don't have any answers. But in the interest of helping to continue the discussion I thought I would offer some of my thoughts. I don't care to debate or argue, but I think this could turn into a reasonable discussion for sure. Momhappy, next time just say what ya mean! LOL

 

[Circe]

Monarch, if I didn't have a deep and philosophical objection to posting .gif files in comment threads, I would totally be reaching for my "Citizen Kane" file. CO-SIGN.

I think these parents sound like bad people for arguing with the authorities at the museum when it was made clear to them that, no, this was not an interactive exhibition. They may well be oblivious people for not realizing the piece's worth, or rude people for not responding in a courteous fashion when reprimanded (there is not much that I hate more than the person who gets pissed because someone had the gall to point out their bad manners).

But I don't think it says much of anything about their intrinsic style of parenting, as opposed to just being their dickish selves around their kid, because I have an incredibly active two year old with three basically full-time adults in his life, and it doesn't seem to matter how much deliberate, Dr. Spock-informed, attention we all pay ... sooner or later, Dennis-the-Menace-like, he finds a way to get into something he shouldn't. Before I had him, I was the first person to go off about how if only parents would do X, children would be better. Now ...? I'm sort of like, eh, some kids are possessed by the imp of perverse. 's all about how you respond to it, at the end of the day. 'Cause, you know, hopefully that's the bit that will result in long-term behavioral modification for them as opposed to a twitch/ulcer/aneurysm for me ....

P.S. - My very favorite exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, discovered by me when I was 7, was one of the fountains of Isamu Noguchi. Think, first eternity pool. In the whole damn museum, it's basically the only thing you're encouraged to touch. I thought it was magic, and it probably did more to inspire my art-loving soul than most of the more conspicuously famous pieces they house.

P.P.S. - He has his own museum. You can grope just about anything contained therein. It is awesome. http://www.noguchi.org/

 

[asscherisme]

Definitely bad parenting

 

[monarch64]

Monarch, if I didn't have a deep and philosophical objection to posting .gif files in comment threads, I would totally be reaching for my "Citizen Kane" file. CO-SIGN.

I think these parents sound like bad people for arguing with the authorities at the museum when it was made clear to them that, no, this was not an interactive exhibition. They may well be oblivious people for not realizing the piece's worth, or rude people for not responding in a courteous fashion when reprimanded (there is not much that I hate more than the person who gets pissed because someone had the gall to point out their bad manners).

But I don't think it says much of anything about their intrinsic style of parenting, as opposed to just being their dickish selves around their kid, because I have an incredibly active two year old with three basically full-time adults in his life, and it doesn't seem to matter how much deliberate, Dr. Spock-informed, attention we all pay ... sooner or later, Dennis-the-Menace-like, he finds a way to get into something he shouldn't. Before I had him, I was the first person to go off about how if only parents would do X, children would be better. Now ...? I'm sort of like, eh, some kids are possessed by the imp of perverse. 's all about how you respond to it, at the end of the day. 'Cause, you know, hopefully that's the bit that will result in long-term behavioral modification for them as opposed to a twitch/ulcer/aneurysm for me ....

P.S. - My very favorite exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, discovered by me when I was 7, was one of the fountains of Isamu Noguchi. Think, first eternity pool. In the whole damn museum, it's basically the only thing you're encouraged to touch. I thought it was magic, and it probably did more to inspire my art-loving soul than most of the more conspicuously famous pieces they house.

P.P.S. - He has his own museum. You can grope just about anything contained therein. It is awesome. http://www.noguchi.org/

Circe, PS is definitely not a place conducive to .gif files, whether one abhors them or not! I understand your aversion; however, I frequent another site where they are commonly used as responses and THERE, they are appropriate and often hilarious. I googled your CK reference.

I know it's against PS rules and isn't really acceptable on many levels, but after reading this post of yours I immediately wanted to make you the Pricescope Saint of Wordsmithism, which isn't a word or a thing.

I followed your Noguchi link and am very thankful to you for posting it. Beautiful works. I was also exposed to art museums as a young child and remember being heartbroken learning the rule of looking with the eyes and not the hands. Loved your relation of experiencing the Noguchi fountain.

...Prior to today, I'd never heard of Judd but upon a little internet research found that he had children and I wonder if he would've had a huge problem with kids climbing his works. We'll never know, but thinking about it is interesting.

Sorry for the threadjack, everyone. Momhappy, thanks for opening this conversation.

 

[partgypsy]

I'm also wondering if there was a sign not to touch, etc. I know it seems obvious, but there are some art that the artist wants people to interact with, and some art you are not supposed to. The art you are not supposed to touch, usually has signs or is cordoned off in some way. It is a natural response to want to interact with art. The parents should not have argued with the museum though unless they are OK with paying for a 10 million dollar piece of art and taking it home with them!

This isn't the first or last time something like this will happen. 20+ years ago I was visiting the Pompidou and there was an outside sculpture garden. I'm looking around and there are a couple French kids from a school group climbing on one of the metal sculptures! first I was going to say something, but I look around, and no one seems to be noticing or freaking out, and so I think, oh it must be an interactive sculpture, how progressive. Then I hear one of the docent/guides screaming at them. No, I guess not.