are we already in a recession or heading towards one?

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/28/2008 7:13:55 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/27/2008 7:56:43 PM
Author: elle_chris
I''d like to play devils advocate for one minute though in regards to Walmart-

I understand that the wages are low and many employees are part time but they still provide jobs, thousands in fact that may be unemployed without them. and when a place such as walmart comes to a small town, it''s a great econmic boost to the local economy.
As far as undercutting the competition. We as americans are always looking for a bargain. Even here on PS we say over and over that stones on the internet are going to cost less than your local B&M store. Aren''t we promoting the same thing?
We also say over and over go lower in color/clarity to save some money, you probably won''t see a difference. I don''t believe we''re different than Wlamart in that sense. We''re also putting the mom and pop stores out of business.

The shoppers here and at walmart are no different. Many people in both places are getting bigger, better and things they normally wouldn''t be able to afford without these places. Now, i''m not a big advocate of huge chain stores -but i can certainly see how they have a place in our economy and, even some of the benefits they provide.

You basically described capitalism. Profit profit profit.

If it weren''t for Target, and other smaller chains, Wal-Mart would have a monopoly.

Freke...would you rather see socialism ?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/28/2008 6:35:17 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 6/27/2008 1:10:49 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/26/2008 10:29:10 PM
Author: Harriet
Can Dancing Fire''s question even be answered on a micro level?

the housing crisis has hit our area very hard. many people had use up all their equity in the pass 2 yrs and now struggling to survive. people are struggling thus hitting the local businesses. we live in a poor city unlike those rich people back east in NYC.

Which is where Wall Street is. I pass the Bear Stearns building frequently. The name is no more.

JP Morgan stole the building.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 6/29/2008 12:03:31 AM
Author: Harriet
SG,

So, what do you think of SoHo?

I''ve been living here on and off since ''01. You''re right about us knowing two New Yorks. I''m an uptown girl.

To me, SoHo is now nothing more than an outdoor mall for tourists. It''s moved way beyond the bridge and tunnel crowd (which I suppose living in NJ growing up, I was part of, though I lived downtown on/off). The streets of SoHo are choked with tourists on the weekend and as a result, a lot of the cool shops have gone or moved and are replaced with crap. Years back, I hung out in SoHo because all the cutting edge galleries were there but now they''ve all moved to Chelsea and elsewhere to get out of the way of the tourists. It''s insane. It''s getting harder and harder to find the gritty, crusty NYC of my youth, and I miss that. I can still find it, but not as easily.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 6/29/2008 1:39:22 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/28/2008 6:35:17 PM
Author: Harriet

Which is where Wall Street is. I pass the Bear Stearns building frequently. The name is no more.

JP Morgan stole the building.

No. They assumed their liabilities.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/29/2008 1:23:59 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/28/2008 7:13:55 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/27/2008 7:56:43 PM
Author: elle_chris
I'd like to play devils advocate for one minute though in regards to Walmart-

I understand that the wages are low and many employees are part time but they still provide jobs, thousands in fact that may be unemployed without them. and when a place such as walmart comes to a small town, it's a great econmic boost to the local economy.
As far as undercutting the competition. We as americans are always looking for a bargain. Even here on PS we say over and over that stones on the internet are going to cost less than your local B&M store. Aren't we promoting the same thing?
We also say over and over go lower in color/clarity to save some money, you probably won't see a difference. I don't believe we're different than Wlamart in that sense. We're also putting the mom and pop stores out of business.

The shoppers here and at walmart are no different. Many people in both places are getting bigger, better and things they normally wouldn't be able to afford without these places. Now, i'm not a big advocate of huge chain stores -but i can certainly see how they have a place in our economy and, even some of the benefits they provide.

You basically described capitalism. Profit profit profit.

If it weren't for Target, and other smaller chains, Wal-Mart would have a monopoly.

Freke...would you rather see socialism ?

Um. I wasn't complaining DF. Besides, socialism/communism goes against human nature to be on top. At least from what I can tell.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/29/2008 3:38:59 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/29/2008 1:23:59 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/28/2008 7:13:55 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/27/2008 7:56:43 PM
Author: elle_chris
I'd like to play devils advocate for one minute though in regards to Walmart-

I understand that the wages are low and many employees are part time but they still provide jobs, thousands in fact that may be unemployed without them. and when a place such as walmart comes to a small town, it's a great econmic boost to the local economy.
As far as undercutting the competition. We as americans are always looking for a bargain. Even here on PS we say over and over that stones on the internet are going to cost less than your local B&M store. Aren't we promoting the same thing?
We also say over and over go lower in color/clarity to save some money, you probably won't see a difference. I don't believe we're different than Wlamart in that sense. We're also putting the mom and pop stores out of business.

The shoppers here and at walmart are no different. Many people in both places are getting bigger, better and things they normally wouldn't be able to afford without these places. Now, i'm not a big advocate of huge chain stores -but i can certainly see how they have a place in our economy and, even some of the benefits they provide.

You basically described capitalism. Profit profit profit.

If it weren't for Target, and other smaller chains, Wal-Mart would have a monopoly.

Freke...would you rather see socialism ?

Um. I wasn't complaining DF. Besides, socialism/communism goes against human nature to be on top. At least from what I can tell.

Since the primary function of government is the redistribution of wealth, what is so wrong with the redistribution of some of that wealth into the hands of the many rather than concentrating it in the hands of the few? Government policies do that very thing, create an environment one way or the other.

And here is a site that everyone should visit. www.shadowstats.com It is partially subscription but partially not, and the creation of a consulting economist by the name of John Williams. The section entitled "Primers on Government Economic Reports" is not part of his subscription service, (used mostly by businesses and authors like Kevin Phillips, where I encountered the site reference) and is particularly enlightening, with the one on how the Consumer Price Index is calculated being a real eye-opener. I love the section in it entitled "Hedonic Thrills of Using Federally Mandated Gasoline Additives". The guy's sense of humor is dry as dust, but spot on. Scary site though, I'll warn you...

 

[miraclesrule]

Wow, that completely backs up my ex-boyfriends advice, many years ago. He was advised to stop using his investments in mortgage lending and to put it all into gold. I still talk to him at least 4 times a year and we haven''t discussed investments recently because we always get sidetracked by the same thing we always did...religion and war.

Karen-you are always posting the most interesting links. I wish I knew more about you.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 6/29/2008 6:45:55 PM
Author: ksinger
Since the primary function of government is the redistribution of wealth, what is so wrong with the redistribution of some of that wealth into the hands of the many rather than concentrating it in the hands of the few?

Wealth redistribution is arguably a primary goal of taxation, along with revenue raising. I noticed that quite a number of posters "hate" paying taxes (on another thread titled "What do you hate spending money on?"). Sorry folks, it''s gotta be done.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/29/2008 7:13:15 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Wow, that completely backs up my ex-boyfriends advice, many years ago. He was advised to stop using his investments in mortgage lending and to put it all into gold. I still talk to him at least 4 times a year and we haven''t discussed investments recently because we always get sidetracked by the same thing we always did...religion and war.

Karen-you are always posting the most interesting links. I wish I knew more about you.

I''m just the product of that execrable public school education.

And oodles of reading. And maybe one day I''ll feel up to telling my life''s story, dull as it may be, although I do tend to be pretty private in most things except surface things. But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS. Wrung out doesn''t begin to describe how I feel right now. So no worries that I will be "mean" to anyone for awhile: I haven''t the energy.... I''ve read some here recently as a distraction, but the post above was probably all I''ll muster for awhile. But like you and the ex, when I''m NOT wrung out, the conflation of religion and war is a perennial favorite topic with the DH.

Later guys. I''ll be back to devil someone sometime I''m sure.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/29/2008 11:03:12 PM
Author: ksinger
I'm just the product of that execrable public school education.

And oodles of reading. And maybe one day I'll feel up to telling my life's story, dull as it may be, although I do tend to be pretty private in most things except surface things. But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS. Wrung out doesn't begin to describe how I feel right now. So no worries that I will be 'mean' to anyone for awhile: I haven't the energy.... I've read some here recently as a distraction, but the post above was probably all I'll muster for awhile. But like you and the ex, when I'm NOT wrung out, the conflation of religion and war is a perennial favorite topic with the DH.

Later guys. I'll be back to devil someone sometime I'm sure.

Karen, congrats on the wedding but I wanted to say I am very very sorry about your mother.

 

[strmrdr]

Haven t had time to read all the posts but wanted to say N. IL is already in a recession and I think most of the country is right on the edge of it with some over the line and some under.

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 6/29/2008 11:03:12 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/29/2008 7:13:15 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Wow, that completely backs up my ex-boyfriends advice, many years ago. He was advised to stop using his investments in mortgage lending and to put it all into gold. I still talk to him at least 4 times a year and we haven''t discussed investments recently because we always get sidetracked by the same thing we always did...religion and war.

Karen-you are always posting the most interesting links. I wish I knew more about you.

I''m just the product of that execrable public school education.

And oodles of reading. And maybe one day I''ll feel up to telling my life''s story, dull as it may be, although I do tend to be pretty private in most things except surface things. But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS. Wrung out doesn''t begin to describe how I feel right now. So no worries that I will be ''mean'' to anyone for awhile: I haven''t the energy.... I''ve read some here recently as a distraction, but the post above was probably all I''ll muster for awhile. But like you and the ex, when I''m NOT wrung out, the conflation of religion and war is a perennial favorite topic with the DH.

Later guys. I''ll be back to devil someone sometime I''m sure.

Karen,
I''m so very sorry to hear about your Mom. My heart goes out to you as this will be an emotional time for you. I am happy to hear that you have your DH to help support you through this most difficult time.

If you ever want to release some ranting energy, please feel free to unleash in this thread. It''s such a pleasure to read your educational posts.

I''ll be holding you in my thoughts....

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/29/2008 6:45:55 PM
Author: ksinger

Since the primary function of government is the redistribution of wealth, what is so wrong with the redistribution of some of that wealth into the hands of the many rather than concentrating it in the hands of the few? Government policies do that very thing, create an environment one way or the other.

i''m waiting for Bill Gates to redistribute a few hundred million my way.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/30/2008 12:49:38 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
i'm waiting for Bill Gates to redistribute a few hundred million my way.

Aren't we all?

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 6/29/2008 11:41:58 PM
Author: Skippy123

Date: 6/29/2008 11:03:12 PM
Author: ksinger
I''m just the product of that execrable public school education.

And oodles of reading. And maybe one day I''ll feel up to telling my life''s story, dull as it may be, although I do tend to be pretty private in most things except surface things. But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS. Wrung out doesn''t begin to describe how I feel right now. So no worries that I will be ''mean'' to anyone for awhile: I haven''t the energy.... I''ve read some here recently as a distraction, but the post above was probably all I''ll muster for awhile. But like you and the ex, when I''m NOT wrung out, the conflation of religion and war is a perennial favorite topic with the DH.

Later guys. I''ll be back to devil someone sometime I''m sure.

Karen, congrats on the wedding but I wanted to say I am very very sorry about your mother.

Ditto. Karen so sorry about the loss of your Mom. I lost a very dear friend to ALS, it''s sooo hard. HUGS to you. Congrats on your wedding!!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/30/2008 1:14:40 AM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 6/29/2008 11:41:58 PM

Author: Skippy123

Date: 6/29/2008 11:03:12 PM

Author: ksinger

I''m just the product of that execrable public school education.

And oodles of reading. And maybe one day I''ll feel up to telling my life''s story, dull as it may be, although I do tend to be pretty private in most things except surface things. But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS. Wrung out doesn''t begin to describe how I feel right now. So no worries that I will be ''mean'' to anyone for awhile: I haven''t the energy.... I''ve read some here recently as a distraction, but the post above was probably all I''ll muster for awhile. But like you and the ex, when I''m NOT wrung out, the conflation of religion and war is a perennial favorite topic with the DH.


Later guys. I''ll be back to devil someone sometime I''m sure.

Karen, congrats on the wedding but I wanted to say I am very very sorry about your mother.

Ditto. Karen so sorry about the loss of your Mom. I lost a very dear friend to ALS, it''s sooo hard. HUGS to you. Congrats on your wedding!!

me too.
Sorry about the loss of your mom and congrates on the wedding.

 

[diamondfan]

Ksinger, I am sorry about your mom. I do not know what buibar ALS is but ALS is scary. Congratulations on your wedding.

 

[Erin]

I, too, am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother but am happy your wedding preceded this event.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/30/2008 11:24:59 AM
Author: Starset Princess
I, too, am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother but am happy your wedding preceded this event.

Ditto. You''re in my thoughts Karen.

 

[Pandora II]

Over here we are all being hit by the food prices and the gas prices ($12 a gallon).

I do find it incredible how cheap gas is in the US. Surely it can''t be good for the environment for the government to be so enabling over burning fossil fuels? Here we get hit hard so as to encourage use of public transport and get people out of their cars.

Anyway, I digress.

To be perfectly honest the people being hit hardest now are those who were irresponsible in the past.

FI and I were talking about it yesterday. Between us we make well over 6 figures GBP, but we own a 600 sq ft apartment in a welfare project with crack dealers in the flat below and teenage mothers next door because that''s all we could afford in London. We take one holiday a year, and I do 99% of my shopping on ebay. I couldn''t begin to afford to buy designer clothes, shoes or the latest gadgets - in fact I can''t even afford to buy clothes at high street prices now I think about it. Neither of us drink and we go out for dinner maybe once or twice a month tops.

But we are 100% debt free bar the mortgage and have enough savings that we are safe for 6 months is something awful happens or FI is made redundant.

Yet I see so many people who earn a lot less than us but have endless new clothes, the latest mobiles/gadgets holidays, eat out every week and live expensive lifestyles. Should I now feel sorry for them because they didn''t calculate that they should budget for a rise in mortgage rates, or because they now struggle to pay off all their storecards/credit cards etc?

There are people who are sensible and yet are still getting hit, and for them I feel sorry - for those who merely lived above their means, well they''ve only got themselves to blame.

The banks need a good slapping for giving out so much credit as well.

 

[FrekeChild]

I agree with you Pandora. Credit card offers come in EVERY SINGLE DAY for BF, offering him these deals where he doesn''t have to pay anything on them for a year or 0% financing or whatever. And he rips them up and throws them away, because with student loans and 2 credit cards already, what does he need more non-money money for? To build up more debt? I don''t think so.

But other people take these offers and sign themselves up. They''re irresponsible with their debt and they think it''s a good idea to rack up more when they can''t pay off what they have already. And it''s all to keep up with the Joneses.

It''s disturbing. And I think it''s what has gotten the US where it is right now. The CC companies can''t keep giving out unlimited credit cards when they continuously get next to nothing back. And that''s what people are doing.

I don''t have a credit card. I don''t have a job to pay it off every month. I''ll stick with my debit card and let the bank take out $ for whatever I spend it on. I''m not about to start living off of borrowed funds.

 

[mrs jam]

Credit card companies never cease to amaze me. It seems like the faster I am getting my credit card debt paid off, the more and more credit card offers I get. And Citibank keeps raising my credit limit until it is now almost equal to one year''s salary. No, thank you! I will never fall into the credit card hole again.

I know it all boils down to personal responsibility, but I think credit card companies are being just as irresponsible as mortgage companies were by offering high lines of credit to people who would not be able to afford it. Scary stuff.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/30/2008 2:24:07 PM
Author: mrs jam
Credit card companies never cease to amaze me. It seems like the faster I am getting my credit card debt paid off, the more and more credit card offers I get. And Citibank keeps raising my credit limit until it is now almost equal to one year''s salary. No, thank you! I will never fall into the credit card hole again.

I know it all boils down to personal responsibility, but I think credit card companies are being just as irresponsible as mortgage companies were by offering high lines of credit to people who would not be able to afford it. Scary stuff.

i blame the user not the CC co''s. just don''t use CC if you can''t pay them off at thee of the month.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/30/2008 3:04:56 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/30/2008 2:24:07 PM\
Author: mrs jam
Credit card companies never cease to amaze me. It seems like the faster I am getting my credit card debt paid off, the more and more credit card offers I get. And Citibank keeps raising my credit limit until it is now almost equal to one year''s salary. No, thank you! I will never fall into the credit card hole again.

I know it all boils down to personal responsibility, but I think credit card companies are being just as irresponsible as mortgage companies were by offering high lines of credit to people who would not be able to afford it. Scary stuff.

i blame the user not the CC co''s. just don''t use CC if you can''t pay them off at thee of the month.

A lot of people don''t see it that way though DF. There are plenty of people out there who see it as free money, and don''t think of the consequences of spending to the limit and then not being able to pay it off.

CC companies certainly aren''t helping the problem-but why should they? They''re charging tons of money to these people when they can''t pay it off immediately or even soon. Too bad they''ll get bit in their tooshes when people are going bankrupt and they don''t ever get their money.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/30/2008 3:58:39 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/30/2008 3:04:56 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/30/2008 2:24:07 PM
Author: mrs jam
Credit card companies never cease to amaze me. It seems like the faster I am getting my credit card debt paid off, the more and more credit card offers I get. And Citibank keeps raising my credit limit until it is now almost equal to one year''s salary. No, thank you! I will never fall into the credit card hole again.

I know it all boils down to personal responsibility, but I think credit card companies are being just as irresponsible as mortgage companies were by offering high lines of credit to people who would not be able to afford it. Scary stuff.

i blame the user not the CC co''s. just don''t use CC if you can''t pay them off at thee of the month.

A lot of people don''t see it that way though DF. There are plenty of people out there who see it as free money, and don''t think of the consequences of spending to the limit and then not being able to pay it off.

CC companies certainly aren''t helping the problem-but why should they? They''re charging tons of money to these people when they can''t pay it off immediately or even soon. Too bad they''ll get bit in their tooshes when people are going bankrupt and they don''t ever get their money.

But they don''t get bit in their tooshies, they return the costs to their other users through higher interest rates.

Those people who see it as free money are both irresponsible and uneducated, so who do we hold accountable? Should school curriculums include money management, teaching things such as balancing checkbooks, what interest rates are, etc? Is it the responsibility of the school? Why aren''t parents teaching their children these practical life lessons? But would it be best to do so to protect society as a whole from ending up exactly where we are (the average family has $11-12,000 in credit card debt, according to this article: http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/104581/Tallying-the-True-Costs-of-Debt) in the future? Because while in theory parents should be responsible for teaching their childre these life lessons, in reality they are not and that puts us all at risk.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 6/26/2008 5:06:02 PM
Author: isaku5

You''ve heard about the booming economy in BC and Alberta, and here in Ontario everything seems to be on track too. We dine out many times a week and the restaurants that we go to as busy as ever.

Property prices are very high here as well. We have been told for years that there will be a ''correction'' as there probably will, but not yet.

In the past our Canadian economy has followed very closely behind that of the US, but so far, we''re not. For every Canadian''s sake, I hope we don''t this time.

Perhaps someone who lives in the eastern provinces will let us know what the economy is like there.

Another Canadian here.

I don''t know about booming, but we''re holding up in Québec as well. Gaz prices are up and house prices are low, but food prices seem to be stable so far and I haven''t noticed a drop of customers in restaurants or stores. No rise in unemployment so far, the minimum wage even went from 8$ to 8,50$ per hour a couple of months ago. Like isaku, I hope that Canada will be able to avoid following the US into recession.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/29/2008 11:03:12 PM

Author: ksinger

But I will reveal though that this month has been hellish. I married on the 5th and my mother died this last week on the 25th after a 2 year battle with bulbar ALS.

Dear Karen,


As I have written elsewhere, the information that one sees and that one misses on Pricescope can be based on weird factors such as whether one opens a certain thread on a certain day or does not. I just happened to see this. I almost missed it. I absolutely love reading your contributions to political threads.

I am so very sorry to hear this sad news about the loss of your mother. Please accept my heartfelt condolences.


With love,
Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/30/2008 12:01:58 AM

Author: strmrdr

Haven t had time to read all the posts but wanted to say N. IL is already in a recession and I think most of the country is right on the edge of it with some over the line and some under.

I agree with Storm. The answer as to whether you are already in a recesssion or are heading towards one is regional and personal and depends on whether you have lost your job yet or not. If it hasn''t yet happened to you, you are still in the "heading towards a recession" phase, if you are on unemployment (or have already exhausted it), you are in a recession.


Deb

 

[ksinger]

Thanks to all for the kind thoughts. They are much appreciated. Things are starting to feel a bit more settled....

 

[katamari]

First, to Karen, very sorry to hear about your mother''s passing. I am glad to hear that things are settling for you and your family.

---

On the topic of credit, this is the factor that makes this recession so dangerous. While there are, of course, some people who spend frivolously and use credit as ''free money'', the vast majority of people use it to get through rough patches and then repay when times get better. Because the banks have been so free with credit offerings as of late, there are a ton of these free, unused ''safety nets'' setting around in people''s wallets--much more than the banks can support. So, when people are forced to use them (with expensive fuel and utilities, rising health care costs, etc.) they are going to collectively harm the economy even more by causing trouble for the banking industry. People are being forced (by raising prices without raising incomes) to spend more than they have. And, banks have lent more money than they have. This is what scares me most about our current economic situation.