are these bowties in my princess?

[picky]

First off, hello to everyone...I''m glad to have found this place.

A little too late unfortunately. I just bought a "signiture ideal" princess cut diamond from a major online retailer, and I think I am seeing something odd....I hope it''s not double bowies:

In some lights, I see little dark triangles in the south, east, west and north sides of the diamond, close to the edges. Does this sound like the horrid "bowtie effect"???

The triangles form a sort of cross in the middle of the diamond.

This effect is very visible when I hold a flashlight behind the diamond. In diffused lighting and in most lighting environments it is not visible at all.

So does this sound like double bowties? Should I send it back? I''ve only got two weeks left on the return policy. THank you to anyone who can help.

 

[RockDoc]

Dear Picky

It is a bit difficult to say exactly what you''re seeing, but from the description you wrote you are probably seeing the facets that have the most contrast in the stone, which is exaggerated to your eye due to obscuration.

To determine accurately what it is that you''re seeing, you probably should have it checked out by someone who is familiar with assessing what it is that you''re seeing.

Rockdoc

 

[picky]

I tried to draw the dark spots in "paint", ... these black areas are where I''m seeing the light leakage when I hold a flashlight behind the diamond. Are these areas supposed to be there, or are these "bad" bowties? For leakage to be considered a bowtie, what lighting conditions must be present?

I wonder if I am being too picky, or if I really should be concerned about them.


I see the dark areas in direct light...not diffused lighting or track lights....or the lights at Costco, etc...

 

[kenny]

It sounds to me that you are not ready to buy.
You are still learning.

I''d send it back.

Learn more.

Then buy - perhaps the same stone.

 

[picky]

^^ Your reply doesn't really answer my question, does it? I asked if this sounded like bowties. I didn't ask if I needed to learn more about diamonds before I keep this one. Thanks anyway.

I've researched for months actually. I don't know much about what bowties in princesses really look like.

Anyway, if I sent it back, I wouldn't have it for when I need it (XMAS)...so if I sent it back now I better have a darn better reason than your vague suggestion that I need to "learn more" before buying a diamond.

 

[Kaleigh]

picky,
I wish I could help you but princess cuts are not my forte. Researcher posts here, maybe she can help you. She knows princess cuts inside and out. Good luck.

 

[picky]

^^ Thank you for your kind and sincere response. I am a little touchy right now, because this was a $7,500 dollar purchase, and my fiance being in the military isn''t made of money. So this is actually a big purchase for us.


Any sincere help would be greatly appreciated. I am including a lucky picture that captured the effect...taken under diffused lighting with a flash:

 

[picky]

This is the stone under very overcast day conditions. White, but more mirror-effects and not very sparkly. But I don''t see the triangles here:

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 11/24/2005 1:18:24 PM
Author: picky
I tried to draw the dark spots in ''paint'', ... these black areas are where I''m seeing the light leakage when I hold a flashlight behind the diamond. Are these areas supposed to be there, or are these ''bad'' bowties? For leakage to be considered a bowtie, what lighting conditions must be present?

I wonder if I am being too picky, or if I really should be concerned about them.


I see the dark areas in direct light...not diffused lighting or track lights....or the lights at Costco, etc...

Respectfully, I think you are interpreting light leakage incorrectly......

If you are observing the stone in the face up position, and lighting from behind, wouldn''t you want light leakage to be coming out through the table/crown of the diamond????

I describe what you are viewing as non performing areas of the facets, which in my testing can vary a lot. Sometimes only part of a facet demonstrates this image, other times it is the entire facet(s) that do this. I believe that the dark areas based on the "paint" image you posted is really obscuation.

I know this may sound a little ridiculous, but you could get a red bag, poke to holes in it to see through the bag, and observe what areas of the stone appear reddish in color.

This could show you that the spots you believe are bowties actually return more light than the other parts of the stone.

Here is an example of actual light leakage of a very well cut princess stone. The green areas are the leakage spots.

Hope this helps

Rockdoc

 

[picky]

^^^ Thank you for your time and effort. Have you looked at the real-life photos I posted? This shows the dark areas I am refering to with all light coming from the front.

 

[researcher]

Picky,
Although I am not an expert, my understanding is the dreaded bowtie effect does not happen in square cuts (I *believe* the bowtie effect is caused by variations in the pavilion angles, which is not an issue with princess cuts). So, I agree with RocDoc (a true expert) that what you''re seeing is just the pattern of light reflecting off the various facets of your stone.

Now, although the numbers don''t tell the whole story, can you share with us the depth, table, crown, etc. of your stone? It will help us to understand what''s going on with your stone. Also, do you have an ideal scope image? It will tell us whether your stone has a lot of light leakage, or where leakage is taking place. If you don''t have one, do your own test with the red bag as RocDoc suggested

Hope this helps to ease your mind!

 

[Patty]

Picky, I do not know much about Princess cut stones, but I think that your stone looks beautiful in the pictures that you posted. ALL stones will show a little bit of darkness in some places if the lighting conditions are right.

I used to have a round stone in my ring that was a deep cut. It would drive me crazy because in some lights, the stone looked very dark in the center. Now I have replaced that stone with one of the "super-ideal" round cuts. In some lights, IT looks a bit dark in the middle. When this happens, I just cup my hands around the diamond and it lights up like a Christmas tree!

My point is, I don''t think that any diamond will be totally bright at all times. Yes, the non-round cuts are more prone to some type of bow tie, but you ring looks VERY sparkly to me.

 

[picky]

Respectfully, I think you are interpreting light leakage incorrectly......

If you are observing the stone in the face up position, and lighting from behind, wouldn''t you want light leakage to be coming out through the table/crown of the diamond????

I describe what you are viewing as non performing areas of the facets, which in my testing can vary a lot. Sometimes only part of a facet demonstrates this image, other times it is the entire facet(s) that do this. I believe that the dark areas based on the "paint" image you posted is really obscuation.

I know this may sound a little ridiculous, but you could get a red bag, poke to holes in it to see through the bag, and observe what areas of the stone appear reddish in color.

This could show you that the spots you believe are bowties actually return more light than the other parts of the stone.

Here is an example of actual light leakage of a very well cut princess stone. The green areas are the leakage spots.

Hope this helps

Rockdoc

Rockdoc: Thank you very much. I actually took an old red 3-ring paper folder, poked a hole through it, and looked through it at the diamond in several different lighting conditions all over my house and outside. What do you know, the diamond instantly reflected back tons of red in those areas in question. Thank you again, you may very well have saved a lot of heartache for my fiance, as I''ve already sent back one stone and might have again if I truely believed my diamond had bowties (if princesses actually get them) or major light leakage. I am very grateful.

 

[picky]

Picky,
Although I am not an expert, my understanding is the dreaded bowtie effect does not happen in square cuts (I *believe* the bowtie effect is caused by variations in the pavilion angles, which is not an issue with princess cuts). So, I agree with RocDoc (a true expert) that what you''re seeing is just the pattern of light reflecting off the various facets of your stone.

Now, although the numbers don''t tell the whole story, can you share with us the depth, table, crown, etc. of your stone? It will help us to understand what''s going on with your stone. Also, do you have an ideal scope image? It will tell us whether your stone has a lot of light leakage, or where leakage is taking place. If you don''t have one, do your own test with the red bag as RocDoc suggested

Hope this helps to ease your mind!

Even though they call this their "signiture ideal" cut, from my lurking here, I gather that the table is a bit larger than most consumers around here would prefer.

Depth: 64.9
Table: 70%
Crown: 9.6%
color: F
clarity: eye clean SI1
fluor: none
girdle: med- sl th

No ideal scope, no brilliance scope, no sarin, etc...just my eyes. The red folder test did reflect back lots of red though...hopefully that''s a good sign. In nice lighting, I get great white sparkle, decent fire. On cloudy overcast days, not so great.
I don''t know if I''m being too harsh on the diamond by constantly questioning it. Everyone I''ve talked to says I''m crazy and that it sparkles like mad, but looking at the photos on this site, I don''t think it measures up...or at least I can''t get a photograph of it performing as well as it does.

Unless there''s something really wrong with it, I don''t want to return it because then I won''t have it for xmas (when I need it).

 

[picky]

Picky, I do not know much about Princess cut stones, but I think that your stone looks beautiful in the pictures that you posted. ALL stones will show a little bit of darkness in some places if the lighting conditions are right.

I used to have a round stone in my ring that was a deep cut. It would drive me crazy because in some lights, the stone looked very dark in the center. Now I have replaced that stone with one of the "super-ideal" round cuts. In some lights, IT looks a bit dark in the middle. When this happens, I just cup my hands around the diamond and it lights up like a Christmas tree!

My point is, I don''t think that any diamond will be totally bright at all times. Yes, the non-round cuts are more prone to some type of bow tie, but you ring looks VERY sparkly to me.

Wow, thank you very much for posting and reasuring me. I constantly look for flaws in it, even though people tell me it''s very sparkly. I think I should appreciate it more and judge it less.... It doesn''t ever really go "dark" exactly (other than those little triangle spaces)... but in overcast or diffused light it turns into more stationary-but-bright mirrors, which troubles me a little.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 11/24/2005 3:52:37 PM
Author: Patty
Picky, I do not know much about Princess cut stones, but I think that your stone looks beautiful in the pictures that you posted. ALL stones will show a little bit of darkness in some places if the lighting conditions are right.

I used to have a round stone in my ring that was a deep cut. It would drive me crazy because in some lights, the stone looked very dark in the center. Now I have replaced that stone with one of the ''super-ideal'' round cuts. In some lights, IT looks a bit dark in the middle. When this happens, I just cup my hands around the diamond and it lights up like a Christmas tree!

My point is, I don''t think that any diamond will be totally bright at all times. Yes, the non-round cuts are more prone to some type of bow tie, but you ring looks VERY sparkly to me.

Hi Patty......

The human eye sees contrast ( the difference between dark and light areas of the stone ). Actually contrast is "pleasing" to the human eye. But there are limits to what the eye sees as attractive i.e too much black areas or areas of dark that are symmetrical.

The ideal scope and the firescope demonstate the differences the appearance in these areas by showing the black vx the red areas.

The new AGS ASET and the GIlbertson Scope show contrast as blue. Jonathon, John from WF and myself have the new desktop version of the AGS ASET. Neil may have one, but I think he has the hand held smaller version of this.

In talking with Brian of WF and Jonathan, we are all trying to get images thorugh the desktop unit, but so far we haven''t figured out how to do this really accurately. I hear that AGS is working on producing an instrument capable of imaging what we see though the desktop lens, but it isn''t available yet.

If you have a complete file of the proportional data, Sergey has an image that does come up which is very sharp on his Diamond Calc program. I am not sure YET how accurate this is, as the image through the instrument is not a sharply defined as the image to the eye as it appear using Diamond Calc.. But rest assured all of us who have the ASET tools are working on how to image this properly. I even took a diamond and the Desktop ASET to my local photography store and tried a multitude of different cameras both fixed lens and removable reflex lens models and NONE of them would produce an image. We even used cameras such as the advanced Nikon digital ones that sell for thousands of $$. The person who runs the store previously work for the advanced medical imaging department of Leica, so he is really knowledgeable about technical imagining.

I am also curious and interested about Marty Haske''s new instrument ( currently patent and manufacturing process) which will image Fire Performance to see how it would fare with Princess images.


Here is a face up photo of an AGS 0 Princess

 

[RockDoc]

Image of a Princess stone that does show some leakage.

See the differences?

Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

Picky.....

When you looked at the red test, did you notice any black?

The rea is area of light return primarly reflecting from 45-70 degree angles.

The dark areas represent the contrast areas ( look at the ideal scope and Firescope images) and note the areas that make up the "arrows". This generally is the light return that is contrast ( which is attractive to the human eye, more so if it is symmetrically "perfect") at angles from 75 to 90 degrees.

As for feeling pressured about returning your stone, if you are in doubt, I am sure you''ll be able to locate another in time for the xmas deadline you have.

Just to comment about "bowties". For many this is a confusing area. It got the name bowtie because in pears and marquise shaped diamond the contrast area takes on the appearance of a bowtie. Loosely described, the arrows in a hearts and arrows stone could be interpreted as an equal to a bowtie in the above shapes, but in a round or princess they appear a "ton" more attractive to the eye, than the bowtie shape in the pears and marquises.

Anohter interesting test is to go in a completely dark room, ( bathrooms are pretty good at being completely dark) make sure the diamond is clean, and illuminate it using a candle, and almost dead penlight or a bic lighter, and observing how the light moves through the stone. The contrast areas should be a bit brighter than the other facets.

You can also observe the strength of the scintillation of the diamond by a) moving the diamond b) moving the light source and c) moving your head.

Hope this helps

Rockdoc

 

[researcher]

Date: 11/24/2005 4:19:21 PM
Author: picky

Picky,

Although I am not an expert, my understanding is the dreaded bowtie effect does not happen in square cuts (I *believe* the bowtie effect is caused by variations in the pavilion angles, which is not an issue with princess cuts). So, I agree with RocDoc (a true expert) that what you''re seeing is just the pattern of light reflecting off the various facets of your stone.

Now, although the numbers don''t tell the whole story, can you share with us the depth, table, crown, etc. of your stone? It will help us to understand what''s going on with your stone. Also, do you have an ideal scope image? It will tell us whether your stone has a lot of light leakage, or where leakage is taking place. If you don''t have one, do your own test with the red bag as RocDoc suggested

Hope this helps to ease your mind!

Even though they call this their ''signiture ideal'' cut, from my lurking here, I gather that the table is a bit larger than most consumers around here would prefer.


Depth: 64.9

Table: 70%

Crown: 9.6%

color: F

clarity: eye clean SI1

fluor: none

girdle: med- sl th


No ideal scope, no brilliance scope, no sarin, etc...just my eyes. The red folder test did reflect back lots of red though...hopefully that''s a good sign. In nice lighting, I get great white sparkle, decent fire. On cloudy overcast days, not so great.

I don''t know if I''m being too harsh on the diamond by constantly questioning it. Everyone I''ve talked to says I''m crazy and that it sparkles like mad, but looking at the photos on this site, I don''t think it measures up...or at least I can''t get a photograph of it performing as well as it does.


Unless there''s something really wrong with it, I don''t want to return it because then I won''t have it for xmas (when I need it).

Picky~
Seeing the numbers you posted, you''re stone is probably better than average. For me personally, I would pass on this stone. Looking at the table and depth combination (the table itself is fine, just not great when paired with the depth), my guess is there is more light leakage in this stone than I would like. BUT, if you like the stone I say keep it. It''s going to face up MUCH bigger than most stones of it''s size due to the depth and table combination, and the crown is not bad.

 

[valeria101]

'Horrid bow tie'

Well, it is not such a horrid thing. If you want, the arrows in a H&A round are four 'bow-ties'.

Some sources call those patches 'bow tie' in a princess cut too...

Bottom line - I am not sure there is a princess cut without some distinctive pattern of light return (or what to call that?) on the mid-sides relative to the corners. Leakage or darkness are probably not the best sort of such 'distinctive pattern'.

These days there are princess cuts cut to optimize optics just like the 'ideal' rounds are. AGS has a new cut standard for princess cuts too, and there doesn't seem to be much (if any) negative feedback about these stones. You may want to search here. Honestly, I don't see any bow in those and hardly anything in yours to begin with.

As for the 'signature ideal' part (Blue Nile?) - anyone can call their diamonds whatever they want.


All I see in your pictures is a very beautiful ring though

This is just 'theory' above.



My 0.2




On the other hand... check this out: LINK

These thins are a tad over the top for me, but it sounds like a relatively narrow set of proportions minimizes the 'mid-facet patch' effect you hate - call it 'bow tie or otherwise'. Something has to be there, but the looks of your princess cut are not some universal signature of all princess cut diamonds.

 

[picky]

When you looked at the red test, did you notice any black?

Hmm, I don''t see much black....a couple slivers of darkness I guess but that''s it. ??

With the "lighter-in-a-dark-bathroom-test", I see the triangles if I hold the lighter close enough, but not at a distance. And I get great fire and scintillation if it means anything.


But darn, this AGS 0 looks beautiful. I don''t know if it''s the way they took the picture, but I just don''t think my stone compares at all.

All that fire!!:

 

[researcher]

This is the look you want to avoid....

According to the ideal-scope website, " Princess cuts often have better light return near the centre, but generally leak more near the edges or corners. Try to avoid stones with large triangular shaped windows like the stone below. Leakage windows like this are common in princess and some other fancy cuts. Stones like this will have dull patches with little light return or fire from those regions."

This would be my concern with your stone--that what you're seeing is leakage in those regions.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/24/2005 5:01:28 PM
Author: picky


With the ''lighter-in-a-dark-bathroom-test'', I see the triangles if I hold the lighter close enough, but not at a distance.

I suppose yo should see dark spots in the ''contrast'' areas where the stone reflects you back like a mirror of sorts. This only happens when you are close enough to block direct light. So... that''s what most diamonds do. There might be some trade off between the effect you see and brightness in direct light (i.e. when you are not close enough to shadow the stone). If this can be circumvented somehow - this is a Q for, say, Paul Sledgers of Infinitydiamonds who makes some of these new ideal princess cuts, Garry, Jonathan of GoodOldGold, Barry and John of Whiteflash (... obviously this is partial list). I don''t remember to have seen some comparably detailed description of princess cut optics around here - so maybe this is the time

And I get great fire and scintillation if it means anything.

Huh?

What else matters !?



But darn, this AGS 0 looks beautiful.

''Bet you can have one. But... there is some other difference between that princess (and the one I posted) and yours - they have fewer facets on the pavilion => different look. So it is not all in the AGS0 part. I think the AGS0 standard has not yet incorporated the type of princess cuts that you have - those with more facets, but it is a matter of time & more research. (as far as I know, and that isn''t much saying)

Hope some of this makes sense

 

[picky]

This is the look you want to avoid....

According to the ideal-scope website, " Princess cuts often have better light return near the centre, but generally leak more near the edges or corners. Try to avoid stones with large triangular shaped windows like the stone below. Leakage windows like this are common in princess and some other fancy cuts. Stones like this will have dull patches with little light return or fire from those regions."

This would be my concern with your stone--that what you''re seeing is leakage in those regions.

Well now I''m back to square one.

Whether or not the areas I am describing and photographing are areas of light leakage.

I am thoroughly lost and confused now.

I guess I''ll be calling around locally for someone who''s got an ideal-scope...or I''ll just buy one off their website. gah....

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/24/2005 5:16:30 PM
Author: researcher

This is the look you want to avoid....

Cool! I had forgotten where that example comes from ...

There are other patchy patterns like that too.

 

[researcher]

Sorry for bring back your doubt!

If you look at several princess cut diamonds (try GOG) you'll see that they each have their own "pattern" as Kaleidoscopic describes it. Depending on the light leakage, you will see a different play of light on your stone.

To understand this better, compare these stones:

Stone 1
Stone 2
Stone 3
Stone 4

Although the last did not score as high as the others, all of these stones are better than average. But, in looking at the stones and the BScope and ideal scope images you might be able to get a better feel for your stone.

 

[kenny]

Sorry picky
Didn''t mean to be rude.

I second the recommendation for the idealscope.
I bought one and it came very quickly.

 

[squarediamondlove]

Picky,

Hopefully reading all the possible causes for the effect you are seeing gives you a better ground for judging whether you want to keep the diamond or not.

On the practical side however, if you are not happy with the diamond''s contrast or "pattern" it''s very simple: return it. You are spending so much money on this, your diamond should speak back to you. It seems clear form your post that this is not going to be a "mind clean" stone to you and the dark spots will probably continue to bother you visually. I agree with Researcher, the depth seems a bit low. But even if the stone had perfect specs, if you do not like the arrangment of contrast on the stone than you should look for another one. Whether it''s light leakage or the opposite (where the diamond reflects light the most in those ares) if you don''t like the way it looks that is what matter!

Every princess cut is different, that is why you cannot simply go on specs. I don''t think it would be wrong to simply tell the dealer that you don''t like its appearance.

 

[researcher]

I agree 100% with Kaleidoscopic. If you read the old posts where Moremoremore was looking for a princess cut stone you''ll find that she HATED, yes HATED when you could see concentrated dark areas. Although it often meant the stones had greater scintillation, she wanted nothing to do with them. She also has an eagle eye for inclusions, but that''s a different topic altogether. My point is that YOU have to be happy with your stone. We''ve basically said that your stone is pretty good, that you can do better (and pay a price for it) but you can also do a whole lot worse. You do not have a dud on your hands. It''s now up to you to determine whether it''s the right stone for you

 

[valeria101]

Just... what if