Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-sell?

[gregchang35]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

OK, so it sounds like retaining resale value, the subject of the headline, is off the table as a relevant part of the decision.

You're absolutely right. If possible, could some of the moderators make a new topic (called, say "How to buy a diamond as cheaply as possible") out of the second page of this discussion.

you can actually start another topic; like you did with this one.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

How could I know whether some stone was used before or not? I mean, once taken out of the setting and cleaned it looks brand new. How do I know, that the diamond I'd buy from GOG or WF hasn't been sitting on someone's finger before?

You don't know your diamond wasn't used before (in fact it probably has), but if it comes from a jewellery store instead of a private sale it's "new". All a vendor needs to do to make a diamonds "new" is polish out any scratches and send it off to GIA for a fresh grading date and new papers.

The point is that you as a private seller can't make a diamond "new" because you're not a store.

Thank you for an excellent explanation. I have seen a number of ads from local jewelers, who are willing to put pretty much any diamond for sale on rapnet for a fee of $150-200 (polishing included). New GIA report would cost another $100+ (we are talking about, say, 1 ct stone). So, roughly $300 is all it takes to make a "new" diamond out of the used one, correct?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

I bought a diamond that was listed on multiple sites last year. It was a GIA XXX. It was a great price. But I was not willing to buy it blind. I wanted to know it was a great performer. So I had Good Old Gold call the stone in for me. They did the photos, light performance tests, and made a very nice video comparing this stone's performance to three others super performers. I paid a couple hundred more than the price on James Allen, and several hundred more than B2C jewels. It was worth it to me because there are stones out there that are GIA Excellent that I simply would not buy. And I have morals that would not allow me to use a vendor that runs the extra tests, have them return it, and then me buy it from the cheapest vendor. In the overall scheme of things, the few extra hundred really doesn't impact my life. I got the assurance I needed that the stone was really excellent and the vendor who did the work was paid.

I buy cars like you do. The difference is that we already know the specs on that car, it's looks inside and out, and it's performance and reliability before we even start shopping. That is not the case with diamonds, which are just numbers on a page. I can show you good and bad GIA excellent stones right now. You cannot buy them blind with assurance you have gotten the best cut. And you actually do not know the absolute price until you decide to buy and negotiate. You do not know in your example above if any of the jewelers will price match the lower priced vendors. So in that respect, they are similar to the car analogy. The price sticker on the window is not necessarily the bottom line price.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

jewelers, who are willing to put pretty much any diamond for sale on rapnet for a fee of $150-200 (polishing included). New GIA report would cost another $100+ (we are talking about, say, 1 ct stone). So, roughly $300 is all it takes to make a "new" diamond out of the used one, correct?

[/quote]
I don’t actually believe your ad unless there’s some serious fine print going on. $150 doesn’t go very far in the diamond cutting business and although listing a stone on Rapnet is ‘free’ to the people who pay the fee to be able to list, there are some definite costs, not the least of which is credit risk. What happens if the buyer doesn’t pay? (Hint: Rap has nothing to do with it, that’s your jewelers problem). I can’t imagine a jeweler who would agree to accept this risk, much less do the sales work, without some profit in the deal. That said, consigning it to a seller who lists it in one of the big databases like that one and resells it to the trade is a relatively reasonable way to sell things if you've got the time and a jeweler who is willing to cooperate. Getting back to your original question, popular things sell a lot faster than unpopular ones and, in this case, moderate grades of XXX non-fluorescent round brilliants in the 1-2 carat range seem to be moving the best at the moment.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

I don’t actually believe your ad unless there’s some serious fine print going on. $150 doesn’t go very far in the diamond cutting business and although listing a stone on Rapnet is ‘free’ to the people who pay the fee to be able to list, there are some definite costs, not the least of which is credit risk. What happens if the buyer doesn’t pay? (Hint: Rap has nothing to do with it, that’s your jewelers problem). I can’t imagine a jeweler who would agree to accept this risk, much less do the sales work, without some profit in the deal.

I couldn't find the $150 jeweler, which I saw at the time I did this search, but here is the offer for $200 (please don't think that I advertise or have anything to do with this company; the info comes from google's first search page):

http://www.northamericandiamondbrokers.com/Sell-Your-Diamond

Maximize Your Selling Price

Not In A Hurry – You could realize 25 to 50 percent more for your diamond by making it available for sale on a worldwide basis rather than just accepting the highest local cash offer.

If you have time to maximize your selling price NADB will act as your diamond broker and list your diamond on the world’s largest diamond network, Rapnet®. Rapnet® is used by almost every diamond dealer in the world. By listing your diamond on this network you will be exposed to thousands of dealers, stores and internet web sites who are looking to purchase diamonds for themselves or their clients.

If you are interested in knowing what your diamond should bring if listed on the MLS we are glad to provide you with this estimate. To arrive at this estimated value we search the worldwide wholesale market for comparable diamonds. We show you a list of these diamonds as well as the dealer asking prices. We then decide what the highest asking price should be, in order to sell your diamond in the next 30 to 90 days.

The MLS Process - Once we have determined the best asking price for your diamond and you decide to proceed, NADB will write up a Diamond Listing Agreement. The listing agreement will show who the client is and give a complete description of the diamond and any work that will be performed on the diamond, if any, to prepare it for listing. If we determine that your diamond would sell for more if it were re-cut and polished and you agree then NADB will have this work performed first. If your diamond needs a GIA Diamond Report we will hand carry your diamond to GIA and have a report made for the diamond as soon as it arrives in our office.

Cost to Perform Services - NADB charges $200 to list your diamond on the MLS. If your diamond needs a GIA report the charges for this service are listed on our GIA Diamond Grading Report Services sheet. If your diamond needs to be re-cut or polished the estimated fees for this are listed on our Diamond Cutting Services sheet. Usually the only other expense you will have is shipping and insurance. North American Diamond Brokers uses Federal Express for all of its diamond shipments. These shipments are sent overnight and fully insured from the time they leave your hands until they are in the hands of the buyer. We have never lost a package with Federal Express.

Shipping, handling and insurance costs vary depending on diamond value. Your shipping expenses cover delivery of your diamond to us and to the buyer. You can see an estimate of these charges by referring to our Federal Express Shipping and Insurance sheet.
We are happy to provide you with a complete MLS worksheet with an estimate of what your diamond will sell for minus your listing fees and our commission. We are certain you will be surprised at how much more money you will realize by using us as your diamond broker rather than settling for a quick cash payment.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

you can actually start another topic; like you did with this one.

Yes, but much discussion on the subject is already happening in this topic.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

Getting back to your original question, popular things sell a lot faster than unpopular ones and, in this case, moderate grades of XXX non-fluorescent round brilliants in the 1-2 carat range seem to be moving the best at the moment.

Thank you again for this valuable advice. Being in the trade long enough do you recall this "sweet spot" moving around much? I mean, while searching for answer to this question I read many treads, some of which were 10+ years old. Yet, 1+ ct mid-grade XXX round continuously kept popping up as one of the most popular in-demand ones.

Was it always the case? I mean, was this a "sweet spot" for a long time or is it something of the XXI century? While it's impossible to predict the future, past behavior of certain indicators could be a very useful prognosis tool.

 

[vintagelover229]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

I've read the discussion and don't have much to add.

If your looking for value-you should go to the preloved market. As you already are aware-a polish and a new cert makes a "new" stone and so if you want to have the best bang for your buck get something classic (ideal cut RB or princess cut) in the VS1-SI1 range G-J in color.

The stone will probably already come with a certification since most ideal cut stones are graded GIA or AGS. If it bothers you that the stone is "used" send it to brian gavin diamonds for a polish and then get it recerted yourself.

Another option is to find a stone that's a good candidate for a recut. Get it recut to ideal cut standards and certified. That option isn't always the best since most cutters need to see the stone in person before they can tell you if a recut is possible-and by then you've already bought the stone.

Good luck finding your wife a ring. I still think buying with a buy back policy is worth the extra money-and some things in life just shouldn't be bought with the thought of getting most/all your money back. This is a luxury purchase-like cars (unless it's a vintage make and model) you rarely are going to make money on them. You get enjoyment out of them (hopefully) but the ones who make money have experience and usually have been in it for many generations.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

When WF brings in a virtual stone, they'll provide an actual picture of the stone as well as Idealscope and ASET images so that you can see the light return and (on rounds) arrows pattern for yourself. I believe most of the drop shippers won't do that.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Since the stone is in WF's "virtual" inventory they would have to request all pictures and images from the "original" seller. So, s/he should to be able/willing to do that. And all other drop shippers would not be able/willing to do that. Hence, WF charges extra $500 for such service. Am I correct?

What stops customers from buying the diamond from any of the cheaper vendors (after receiving pictures and images from the WF)? I mean, again, it's the same stone, isn't it?

You are not correct in the bolded.

If you buy the virtual stone from a drop shipper, they will take your money, call the wholesaler, and the wholesaler ships it to you.

If you want to buy it through WF, they will call the wholesaler, have the wholesaler send the diamond to WF, where WF will examine the diamond and take photos and other images for you. Their gemologist will talk about the diamond with you on the phone. And then you decide if you want to buy it or not. You pay the extra $500 for all of those services.

You are free to buy it from a true drop shipper and do all of that examination yourself, or hire a local appraiser to do it, and save the $500.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

I also want to tell you that there are different answers to the two questions you are asking in parallelel:

Which diamond might you have the best luck selling down the road?

Likely a GIA Ex cut G-H VS2. That has been established. Though I wager that you would only have the "best luck" reselling such a diamond if you are considering reselling to a jeweler, where you will be lucky to get 50-70% of current retail value; or if you are planning to consign your diamond with a jeweler who can offer it as "new" on the market, as discussed. Then you pay a consignment fee, plus fees to recert the stone, potentially repolish, ship the stone to the vendor, eat the credit card fees... eats up a good 20% in my experience.

What diamond can you buy the cheapest?

There is no question. The best way to buy a dimond cheap is to buy from a private seller. Full stop. You will pay about 25% to 50% of current retail for many diamond this way. But to save big you have to really educate yourself because the diamond industry and market is very complex. As Denver appraiser said, the easy part is buying the diamonds. Selling them is a whole other story! Those places offering to sell your stones for you on RapNet or whatever... if it was that simple, there would not be a glut of frustrated private sellers out there. And I would not be able to buy diamonds so cheap on ebay

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

No. What has been said is Whiteflash has the stone shipped to their facilities, inspects it, takes measurements and photos, and then communicates with you. You may then buy it or not. They don't have it drop-shipped. Now, that costs WF money. WF has overhead costs, and they have specific costs for evaluating this particular stone. If they don't make the sale, their bills still have to be paid, and somehow the cost of the work they just did for you has to be paid. They have to spread the general overhead costs and unless they can bill customers for work done on call-in stones that are not bought, those costs probably get rolled into overhead.

OK. I think, I get it now. In this example, WF charges $500 (or about 10% of the total price) simply for double-checking (inspection, photos, etc.) the diamond before sending it to me. And, since they do it without advance payment regardless of whether the customer ends up buying the stone of not, those, who actually do, have to pay for those, who didn't. That's their business model, right?

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

You really do seem to begrudge these vendors making a reasonable profit on their diamonds, much less being paid for their skill and knowledge in selecting them. But this isn't a flea market, Sir. It's e-commerce, and all of the vendors are in the business *to make money.* Do you work for peanuts? Are you offended if someone comes in and tries to haggle you down to working for $6/hr or otherwise below market rates?

You're right. It's an e-market and it happens to be the most competitive and transparent one. And, in this particular case, it's like reverse auction, where sellers make bids for each customer's business. Whichever vendor offers the lowest price gets the sale. So, each merchant calculates the markup, which should be sufficient to cover his costs and generate some profit on that sale, and makes his best bid.

If certain vendors for whatever reason (lower costs, higher efficiency, etc) are willing to operate with smaller profit margins than others why are you trying to blame me (the customer) for that? If airlines or car makers start a price war tomorrow, should the customer feel guilty for buying their product(s) cheaper than he should have? I don't think so.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

James Allen Schultz|1361239967|3383844" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

From my experience, there are two kinds of buyers in the world: transactional and consultative. Transactional buyers do what they can to commoditize a product as much as possible and then purchase the item for the least amount of money. They usually don't feel the need for a salesperson or CSR to hold their hands and would much rather do their own research. These are the folks that are putting Best Buy out of business, shopping the stores and then buying the product from Amazon. I built my first company capturing these buyers and completely understand the perspective.

The second group of buyers don't generally look at things so cut and dry. They appreciate the services that the transactional buyer finds superfluous. They may have brand loyalty (or at least preference) and be willing to pay more for an item from one merchant vs another if nothing more than for the name on the box. They understand they are probably paying a little more than they have to, but find value in the extra care, services, policies, free luggage or whatever.

James, thank you for fantastic advice. It pretty much clarifies it all. They only thing, which I still don't get is why most companies who choose to go after type 1 buyers ("commoditizers") keep treating them like type 2 buyers ("consultatives")?

BTW, in your opinion, what is the % ratio between the two groups? Did it change in, say, last 10 years?

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

I have another comment on your airline example. You’ve identified the luggage and food as the cost triggered items on the airline when, in practice, they are rather small. The big costs are in labor (pilots, ground crews, maintenance, etc), equipment (cost of the plane), fuel, and taxes (landing fees et.al.). Food is a way of making customers feel like they’re getting a better service when they fly ‘first class’ or whatever when, in practice, it’s the same plane, the same pilot, the same destination etc.

Discount airlines use cheaper aircraft. Older, smaller planes.
Discount airlines pay their employees less (they’re non-union).
Discount airlines have smaller staffs. 2 man flight crews instead of 3 for example.
Discount airlines will cram more people onto the plane.
Discount airlines have less redundancy of staff and equipment so they have a greater chance of delays and cancellations.

Airlines also have an insanely complicated pricing model where the date you buy the ticket is TREMENDOUSLY important. This is much more important with the major airlines than the discounters. A ticket with 1 days notice will cost you 5 times the price of that same seat with a months notice. That’s because they can, not because the food will be better.

Another corollary is the cancellation policy. Tickets with no penalty tend to cost significantly more than those that apply a penalty if you need to change something. The foods the same, as is the pilot and the plane.

All of this may not matter to you. You’re trying to get from point A to point B. You’ll buy your ticket well in advance and you’ll rely on the regulators to prevent them from skimping too much on the maintenance and flight crews. You want cheap. You buy the penalty tickets and you agree to fly at unpopular times because the tickets are cheaper (even though the fuel, crew and equipment cost exactly the same). That’s the way I fly too, and I fly Southwest a lot more than I fly American, but the savings mostly isn't about the ‘free’ food.

I would love to have a lengthily discussion with you regarding airlines and their business models, but, I guess, it would be totally off-topic So, just a few quick points. Because of their business model, low-costers usually have the youngest fleet in the industry (newer planes = less maintenance = more time in the air = more money). Customers don't care whether carrier's workforce is unionized or not (if this factor disturbs the core business then 2009 GM/Chrysler scenario will follow). Two-man crews lately became pretty much standard practice for all airlines. And passengers' rights regarding delays and cancellations are regulated by domestic and international laws, which apply equally to traditional and low-cost carriers.

However, time of purchase (advance or last-minute), cancellation policy and amount of legroom are, in fact, services (no matter how strange it sounds), which customers could chose to use (and pay for) or not. Also food and luggage are not as auxiliary in airlines' income as most people think. Ryanair often sells seats for 99 cents. While those are "loss-leaders", 30-40$ tickets (one-way, all-taxes-included) are quite the norm. So, they, actually, rely heavily on auxiliary income (food, luggage, seat selection, in-flight shopping, etc.) to generate the profit.

Personal experience. A few months ago I flew from Bologna to Brussels (about 2 hr flight). My roundtrip ticket cost me just 80$. However, I paid additional 54$ for checked luggage (both ways) and 16$ for sandwich, bottle of wine and cup of tea each way ($32 total). So, in the end, airline has made more money on food+luggage than on the ticket itself. And, since their perfume prices are better than at duty-free shops I ended up buying a bottle of cologne for another 53$.

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

No. What has been said is Whiteflash has the stone shipped to their facilities, inspects it, takes measurements and photos, and then communicates with you. You may then buy it or not. They don't have it drop-shipped. Now, that costs WF money. WF has overhead costs, and they have specific costs for evaluating this particular stone. If they don't make the sale, their bills still have to be paid, and somehow the cost of the work they just did for you has to be paid. They have to spread the general overhead costs and unless they can bill customers for work done on call-in stones that are not bought, those costs probably get rolled into overhead.

OK. I think, I get it now. In this example, WF charges $500 (or about 10% of the total price) simply for double-checking (inspection, photos, etc.) the diamond before sending it to me. And, since they do it without advance payment regardless of whether the customer ends up buying the stone of not, those, who actually do, have to pay for those, who didn't. That's their business model, right?

I'm not sure you do. They are more than "double checking" the diamond. A virtual stone probably has not had any sort of inspection by whomever is holding it. They bring it in and run tests on it for performance that probably haven't been done at all.

You could also learn to test them yourself with idealscopes and ASET scopes if you really want to get in to the nitty gritty of finding the best deal possible via either secondhand, or by buying off the lowest price available and getting it in to test yourself. You're just going to have to do a lot of work yourself that way.

The main trouble, as people have pointed out, is that you may possibly be categorizing diamonds as little carbon copies (sorry, pun) of each other like a car and you just go get the lowest price one you can from where ever gives you the lowest price and it'll be exactly like any other one (so why pay more? I get that...). And as people have stated over and over, for 2 diamonds with the same shape, clarity, color and carat weight one could be a dog, and one could be fantastic. That's what all those tests show. That's what some vendors do for you (and they tend to charge extra), some don't at all, and some will do a little basic stuff on request up to a certain point. Or, you can learn to do some yourself with a little education reading here.

 

[Christina...]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

No. What has been said is Whiteflash has the stone shipped to their facilities, inspects it, takes measurements and photos, and then communicates with you. You may then buy it or not. They don't have it drop-shipped. Now, that costs WF money. WF has overhead costs, and they have specific costs for evaluating this particular stone. If they don't make the sale, their bills still have to be paid, and somehow the cost of the work they just did for you has to be paid. They have to spread the general overhead costs and unless they can bill customers for work done on call-in stones that are not bought, those costs probably get rolled into overhead.

OK. I think, I get it now. In this example, WF charges $500 (or about 10% of the total price) simply for double-checking (inspection, photos, etc.) the diamond before sending it to me. And, since they do it without advance payment regardless of whether the customer ends up buying the stone of not, those, who actually do, have to pay for those, who didn't. That's their business model, right?[/quote]

WF actually changed their policy sometime after the first of the year. If I understand correctly if a person wants to have a virtual stone called in and evaluated then they must purchase the stone in full before WF will call it in. So no more passing the bill onto you. Perhaps because of this we will find their virtual stones to be more competitively priced, but perhaps it's still to soon to know. I don't believe that vendors such as WF do much in the way of sales of virtual inventory. Their business model aims more at consumers who are looking for a specific type of stone with ideal light performance. Purchasing from their ACA line pretty much guarantees that you are buying a 'winner'. Many of us here are looking for exactly these type of stones, vendors such as WF BGD and GOG offer us peace of mind with all the additional information that they provide and we are willing to pay for it as well as the additional benefits they offer. Of course there are other consumers who aren't interested in all the extras and that's fine too so long as they understand that not every GIA/AGS EX IDEAL cut is equal nor is every H SI1. Purchasing from a drop shipper doesn't allow you to ask specific questions about a stone, is it eye clean for example, is it a high H or a low H, does the fluorescence impacts it's brilliance in any negative way, is the inclusion a durability risk, is there visible leakage? It also doesn't allow you to have several stones compared side by side which is important to many of us as well. And since your looking for a princess cut, which vary greatly from one to another in appearance alone, and can't be purchased by the numbers as a round sometimes can, I would think that a gemological assessment would be even more valuable to you. Since it appears that you live outside of the US have you considered the cost of shipping a stone back and forth until you find a winner (there are a lot of dog princess cuts out there). I would imagine that the cost of shipping just one stone back to the vendor could be costly and add the frustration of dealing with customs to have the fees reversed could be a nightmare. To me the extra 10% would be well worth it to eliminate the frustration not to mention the added value of the buy back policy that the 10% includes not to mention the increased likelihood that you receive that 'winner' the first time around.

ETA I seemed to have begun to respond as bastetcat was posting so I apologize for repeating some of the same information.

 

[YoungPapa]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

James Allen Schultz|1361239967|3383844" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

From my experience, there are two kinds of buyers in the world: transactional and consultative. Transactional buyers do what they can to commoditize a product as much as possible and then purchase the item for the least amount of money. They usually don't feel the need for a salesperson or CSR to hold their hands and would much rather do their own research. These are the folks that are putting Best Buy out of business, shopping the stores and then buying the product from Amazon. I built my first company capturing these buyers and completely understand the perspective.

The second group of buyers don't generally look at things so cut and dry. They appreciate the services that the transactional buyer finds superfluous. They may have brand loyalty (or at least preference) and be willing to pay more for an item from one merchant vs another if nothing more than for the name on the box. They understand they are probably paying a little more than they have to, but find value in the extra care, services, policies, free luggage or whatever.

James, thank you for fantastic advice. It pretty much clarifies it all. They only thing, which I still don't get is why most companies who choose to go after type 1 buyers ("commoditizers") keep treating them like type 2 buyers ("consultatives")?

BTW, in your opinion, what is the % ratio between the two groups? Did it change in, say, last 10 years?

Hi Greakly,

I'm not sure if I totally understand your question, but I'll take a shot at answering it anyway.

Companies that court transactional buyers do so because generally speaking, low price is all they have to offer. They simply can't compete on other services, so the focus becomes lowest price. The problem with this model is that if the lowest price is all you have to offer, someone is going to come along and be the next 'cheapest guy', the cycle repeats, and eventually you get to the point where items are being sold at cost. Good for the consumer, but a dangerous business strategy. The problem is compounded when you consider transactional buyers have little to no brand loyalty, so the lifetime value of that client is almost nothing.

Compare that to the business that charges a little more, but has a competitive advantage that justifies the spend and creates value to the customer. Most transactional sellers figure this out pretty quickly and shift their business model accordingly. So, to answer your question, you might be treated as a consultative buyer because that's exactly what the seller wants you to be - someone who values the business for more than their low price.

As to percentage, I have no real idea, but would guess when it comes to something as enigmatic as diamonds, purely transactional buyers are the minority, but everyone has had to sharpen the pencil.

All the best,

 

[aljdewey]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

These are not just some "similar" stones. This is EXACTLY the same stone. Yet, Whiteflash is asking about 10% more for it than the rest of the pack. Why is that? In this case no handpicking or personalized service was done. However, Whiteflash offers 70% buyback policy. Which brings us back to my earlier question: is "-30%" buyback worth paying extra 10% of the price of the same diamond?

To me - hardly.

I think what you're missing in your analysis is this: GUARANTEED buyer, which means instant liquidity.

Neil's right that the hard part is the selling. As a single individual instead of a jeweler, you're going to have a much harder time instilling buyer confidence. A diamond is a significant purchase for most people, and most prefer to do so with the security of some kind of 'support' behind it. That's likely not from individuals.

I know you're thinking "well, I could sell back to a jeweler" but here's the thing - whether or not he's going to want it is as much about his current inventory investment. If he already has 5 diamonds like yours in stock, his desire to purchase yours diminishes. If it's a top-cut stone, it's actually more of a pain since he'll likely choose to resubmit for new grading, which keeps it off the market for potentially 1-2 weeks......dead money. And, after all that, he could probably still buy a similar stone from his supplier cheaper than he buys from you with way less hassle/stress.

That leaves you with consignment, which means waiting around for a jeweler to sell it on your behalf....and he won't be doing that for free.

Why don't you take a little stroll through the Pre-loved forum and look how long some of those listings have been up? That might give you some insight into how long it can take to move.....even for stones in the presumable 'sweet spot'.

 

[aljdewey]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

When WF brings in a virtual stone, they'll provide an actual picture of the stone as well as Idealscope and ASET images so that you can see the light return and (on rounds) arrows pattern for yourself. I believe most of the drop shippers won't do that.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Since the stone is in WF's "virtual" inventory they would have to request all pictures and images from the "original" seller. So, s/he should to be able/willing to do that. And all other drop shippers would not be able/willing to do that. Hence, WF charges extra $500 for such service. Am I correct?

What stops customers from buying the diamond from any of the cheaper vendors (after receiving pictures and images from the WF)? I mean, again, it's the same stone, isn't it?

This statement just points out how little you really do understand about what happens on the vendor side of things.

Vendors do not 'request' pictures and images from the 'original' seller. I can assure you this having worked in the trade. BTW, the original seller isn't anywhere near being around - he was multiple steps prior in the chain. End vendors are buying from dealers......middlemen. All they get for info on most of the broker stones is "1 ct, H, VS1 clarity.....eyeclean." No copies of lab reports. No photos. Nada.

When you decide you want the stone, they actually phone the dealer - hey, buyer wants assurance it's eyeclean, blah blah and tries to get some intel from the dealer. That happens only on the strength of their relationships with those dealers, so vendor selection does matter. Next - let's say the stone has promise and they call it in. It's the vendor taking the photos for you. It's the vendor chasing down a copy of the lab report. It's the vendor absorbing the shipping up front.......often expressly telling their customers that shipping is on them if stone is acceptable and they choose to decline. And that's just scratching the surface.

But it's a waste of time to try to convey any of this.......you seem to already know it all already......in fact, moreso than the many 20-30+ year trade members, so I'm sure you can figure out on your own what the best flip will be. Best of luck to you.

 

[aljdewey]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

So here's what I don't get......you've already done your 'research' and determined what the historical "sweet" spot seems to be, right?

Since it's clear you feel pretty confident in the information you've gleaned from Professor Google with respect to "it's only $200 to list a diamond for resale"....and you are comfortable enough relying on that statement blindly, why do you not also have the same confidence in your research results about the 'sweet spot for resale'.

It's curious to me that you want to come get independent verification from a place that's likely to offer some expertise, but on the flip side don't seem to value that kind of expertise from a jeweler enough to pay something for it. Is expertise only valuable if it's free?

What you're doing right now......going to someplace looking for verification from people who are most likely to know.........is the same thing as going to a jeweler to get his expertise evaluation. When a good vendor calls in a brokered stone, they're also inspecting that stone for things you wouldn't know to look for. Is the stone structurally sound? Does it perform well? Do they agree with the color/clarity gradings?

All of these things are *subjective*.....they rely on the expertise of the person making the evaluation. If that's not of value to you, then why worry at all? Just go buy a diamond and enjoy it.

But saying that there is no difference in that kind of counsel is like saying there's no difference between hiring a professional photographer or asking your college buddy shoot your wedding photos with his SLR. The peace of mind in the end product varies greatly. If it's a repeatable event (i.e. basketball game, kid's party), might be worth the savings, but if it were the only wedding day you'd likely have.....I'd probably want the proven expert. But that's just me....I place high value on people who know what they're doing.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

re: sweet spot
It depends on the market.
A $5 to $7k 1ct would sit for a very long time in my area.
1/4ct to 1/2ct is the sweet spot here in the rust belt Midwest.
Closer to Chicago there are a few areas where larger diamonds would do better but still not as well as other parts of the country.
Overall market a 1ct mid-range well cut is likely a good bet but that does not mean you could sell it locally in many areas if you needed cash fast other than at a ridiculous loss.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

NADB charges $200 to list a stone. They charge a commission to actually sell it. The commission rate varies with the price of the stone but I'm pretty sure the minimum is 10%.

 

[aljdewey]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

NADB charges $200 to list a stone. They charge a commission to actually sell it. The commission rate varies with the price of the stone but I'm pretty sure the minimum is 10%.

And that perfectly underscores the point I was driving at, too......1) just because the internets say so doesn't make it so, and 2) there's always more to the 'best deal' than meets the eye, thereby diminishing the 'score' factor.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

NADB charges $200 to list a stone. They charge a commission to actually sell it. The commission rate varies with the price of the stone but I'm pretty sure the minimum is 10%.

Thank you for the clarification. After your post I went through the fine print and, indeed, there is 10% commission on top of $200 listing fee. Funny, they never mentioned it on the main page. That brings the total cost of selling, say, $4K diamond through NADB to about $800 (or 20% of its value):

$200 - listing fee
$400 - commission
$100+ - new GIA report
$100 - misc. expenses (shipping and etc.)

With some companies offering 75% buyback, selling the diamond through consignment broker might not be the best option. Unless the customer could find some local jeweler, who would agree to put the stone on RapNet and charge less commission than NADB.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

As mentioned above, I've got no problem with people who want to be paid for their work. Actually, I'm much more concerned with folks who claim they aren't. 10% sales commission plus expenses is on the cheap end of the scale. Dave Atlas has a program that looks about like this as well. On the other end, Sotheby's, for example, charges 40% (15% to the seller and 25% to the buyer). JewelsByEricaGrace, a popular jeweler with the folks here, charges 15% plus a few fees as needed for consignments but they're fairly picky about taking in things that fit their market (older cuts, cool antique jewelry, etc.). Pearlmans, another popular store here, has a similar program and is a more 'traditional' sort of jewelry store. Glass cases, smiling people in suits and so on. They're picky too but they're looking for a different sort of goods. An item that JBEG might count as perfect for their market may be a dog at Pearlmans and visa versa. It might do enough better at Sotheby's to justify their higher prices and it might not. Sotheby's does best with some fairly exotic sort of stuff that most jewelers have a tough time moving. They don't share the same sweet spots. There is no one size fits all sort of solution, NONE of them are free, and the cheapest isn't always the best in every situation.

It's worth noting that you are using Rapnet as the benchmark for pricing and then looking at a discount from that. For the right item that's ok but what you really want is a ratio to what you have to PAY to buy it. There will be a commission of 10%ish on the purchase end as well, even if you buy from an aggressive dealer. The 'discount' on the buyback deals is based on YOUR transaction price.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

10% sales commission plus expenses is on the cheap end of the scale. Dave Atlas has a program that looks about like this as well. On the other end, Sotheby's, for example, charges 40% (15% to the seller and 25% to the buyer).
.....................
It's worth noting that you are using Rapnet as the benchmark for pricing and then looking at a discount from that. For the right item that's ok but what you really want is a ratio to what you have to PAY to buy it. There will be a commission of 10%ish on the purchase end as well, even if you buy from an aggressive dealer.

Thank you again for a great advice. Let me make sure I understood you correctly. If I want to sell the diamond through a broker, I'll pay him 10% commission plus $200 listing fee (another 5% in my case). On the other hand, the buyer will also pay at least 10+ % commission to his "broker" (vendor, who will get the stone for him off RapNet). In fact, it seems to me that this "buyer's commission" (so to speak) is more in the 15-25% ballpark.

Again, I make this assumption based on the example from the top of page 2 of this tread. A few vendors offer that particular stone on the pricescope from $4500 (more aggressive ones) to $5000 (more established ones). Based on that I guesstimate, that this diamond sits on RapNet for about $4000 asking price. Which, in turn means, that if it's sold by a broker the "end" owner would end up getting about $3400. That's 25+% off the selling price of the most aggressive dealer and 30+% off the selling price of a more established one.

If something is sold by Sotheby's (BTW, together with Christie's they are the two most expensive auction houses in the antique industry) for, say, $4000 hammer price, the buyer will end up paying $5000 (hammer + 25% purchaser's premium) and the seller will end up getting $3400 (hammer - 15% consignor's commission). To me it sounds awfully similar to the case of above-mentioned diamond. Or am I again missing something?

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

That’s the deal with THAT broker. Others may be different. The NADB folks are an entirely credible outfit but it’s a mistake to generalize them to the industry for the same reason that it’s a mistake to generalize the auction industry with Sotheby’s.

Sotheby’s probably wouldn’t even agree to sell your stone but the math is basically correct. Where they do best is very peculiar stuff that costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. As much as they would like to, most jewelers (and other auction houses) simply don’t do well that that sort of thing and the high end guys have carved out a bit of a niche despite their high prices.

Most of the ‘virtual’ stones you see listed in the database here are also listed in Rapnet or one of their competitors. The dealer selling them has a markup for their services, which have been discussed at length above and you may or may not be interested in their value add. That’s up to a negotiation with the buyer but 10% is cheap. Use whatever number you like but your math seems to be about minimizing what it will cost to buy a stone vs. what you can expect to realize in selling that same stone. No?

Another variable you’re overlooking, by the way, is that some sellers, we’ll take Pearlman’s for example, can sometimes get higher prices for the sort of items that fit their product mix than others, say Rapnet. Their business model costs more and I see no problem that they charge higher commissions but their commission is charged based on their actual selling price, not what it would cost them to buy it from some alternative source like Rapnet. Sure, they charge more for their work but they can also bring higher prices which may offset their costs and then some. It’s likely that JBEG would decline to sell the stone you’re describing as the ‘sweet spot’ but NADB could probably move it easily and rather quickly. The same issue applies with Sotheby and any other channel. The attached pic is of a necklace that’s coming up for auction in April and they think they’ll get $400-650k for it (plus the buyers premium), which they probably will. I’m sure that one of these other channels would be tickled to have an item like that and would sell it for a significantly smaller fee but would they actually get that price and can they do it in a reasonable amount of time? Customers for goods like this aren’t easy to find, and they seem to like shopping at Sotheby’s. That’s THEIR value add.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

That’s the deal with THAT broker. Others may be different.

You are right. Apparently you can sell your stone for 8% commission with no listing fee:

http://datlas.com/fees/

There is no cost to you for shipping, consultation and our offer to purchase When we buy outright, we issue immediate payment. If you choose to use our short term consignment services we charge 8% of the agreed price plus all costs, approved by you in advance, that may be needed to complete a sale on your behalf.

“Approved costs”: The cost of any required GIA or other equally necessary laboratory reports, secondary shipping, added insurance requirements, or authorized other costs directly related to completion of a sale. Our standard consignment period is a short 10 day period.

We pay for you to ship us your items and we will also pay to return them to you if we cannot come to an agreement of sale or fail to get your agreed price for consigned goods.

 

[GREAKLY]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

your math seems to be about minimizing what it will cost to buy a stone vs. what you can expect to realize in selling that same stone. No?

Well, originally I was trying to figure out how to get as much money as possible in case I need to sell the stone. After reading this forum I quickly realized that in order to achieve that I'd have to pay for the stone as little as possible in the first place. That's how the focus got shifted.

 

[gregchang35]

Re: Are there certain diamond types that are easier to re-se

There are a couple of topics in this thread and it boils down to what it is that you are prepared to pay for the service that you require.

1) selling your diamond to get the best return on it. choose wisely when you first purchase the diamond= the sweet spot is around the 1+ ct and H-I colour with eye clean SI1. Many avenues to sell the diamond; each with their varying commissions, unless you sell on your own. i doubt that any business is going to provide a service without a fee. Sure, find the lowest possible commission that you have to pay for them to sell the diamond.
If it is low performing diamond, it will sell at a very LOW price. If it is a high performing diamond, it will fetch a higher price; assuming you get a buyer. Diamonds may or may not sell quickly, it depends on the diamond and what price are you willing to let the diamond go/sell for. Have a look at the second hand market and others have posted that at most you will get 70%. I guess, if you price the diamond right to sell, it will sell. Rounds also sell better than fancy shapes. However, your GF may not like that shape and prefer a fancy cut (princess, asscher, emeralds etc) then it becomes a different issue- as it may take longer to sell at a later date; whenever you so choose that to be. There are vendors that offer a buy back policy - about 70% of what it is that you purchased it for. There is a premium for this (a valuable service to some and not to others). This also means that you get to sell the diamond quickly. Is this something that you are after- selling the diamond quickly? if so, then it is a service that you want to pay for? if not, then don't buy from this vendor.

2) choosing the diamond at the lowest possible price. it is possible. you will have to do the research, as you are doing here. you will need to understand if you would like a poor or great performing diamond. there are vendors out there that can help you with that. They can sell based on the numbers and pictures of the diamond. However, ASET and idealscopes are generally the better images of the diamond to help determine the performance on the diamond. this will come at a fee. it sounds as if you do not value these to be done from the vendors here. The advice has been given several times about the value of these images that some vendors provide. If you don't want these images, that is ok. Purchasing your diamond based on numbers is ok, too. However, you will not know the performance of the diamond until it is in your hands and then you or your GF compares to other diamonds. By that time, it may be too late and you/she may be stuck with a poor performing diamond. Which in turn may mean that you have difficulty in selling in the future, unless you are willing to let it go for a much lower price. You could also get a great performing diamond without getting these images, then it is a win! There is that risk. This risk is reduced with the ASET and idealscope images. You will know for sure if the diamond that you are looking at is a performing one or not.


You can read here time and time again, that the cut of the diamond will determine how the diamond performs and potentially be the envy of others. For some ppl they would want that and they are willing to pay for it. It is by no means a guarantee that they will sell the diamond in the future. It only guarantees that the diamond will perform well.

to sell the diamond, you need a buyer. But at what cost to you?