Are there any photos documenting the negative aspects of a "Steep Deep"

[Rockdiamond]

If the photos show you something you don''t like about the cut, that seems to be a very good thing. Knowing what one does not like can help people refine what they are looking for.


I can see the outline of the table, if that''s what you mean.
To my eye, that''s contrast- which allows us to see it''s a 3d object in the photos.

I don''t love the way that diamond is made, if the photos are giving me an accurate picture of how I would see it''s cut in person.
I''m not a great fan of small tables- and I have had to adjust my thinking to allow stones of 61% depth into my idea of what "Excellent" cut is. To say nothing of 63.6% depth!
Regardless of my taste, from those photos, if it is a stone graded "EX" by GIA, I could not say it''s badly cut.

I would not say that there are noticeable dark areas in the photos in a negative sense- other than the normal contrasting hues I''d expect in a photographic depiction of a diamond.
I would not recommend a stone cut to these proportions either- but that''s not the issue.
Telling someone you prefer stones cut to different proportions, and why- is a great thing.
The gist of my comments is only that sometimes taste issues get turned into factual issues.

I think that GIA''s approach to this is more inclusive. And I see that as positive.



diamondrnglover- I love the fact you''re getting a lot of enjoyment from your diamond. That''s what it''s all about anyway!
When it comes to Princess Cuts, the vast majority do have a somewhat darker center- many times this is obvious in a photo.
Still, many people love princess cuts.

 

[FB.]

To my eyes:

Steep/deep = reduced visibility of arrows (quite possibly bright arrows shining through a dark table), slight darkness under table. Rather boring "same-all-over" look to the diamond.

Tolkowsky ideal = prominent black arrows. The black/white contrast adds a bit of extra interest.

But I suspect that there are people who don't like to see the black arrows - in which case a steep/deep may be more suitable for them.

I borrowed a picture from one of the links above, which nicely demonstrates what I see:

 

[YoungPapa]

Here are two steep/deep diamonds. The one on the left is 34.9/41.2 and looks great in person with no discernible leakage under the table. The one on the right, however, is a good demonstration of when steep/deep can become problematic. I don''t have the angles on the second stone but could get them tomorrow.

 

[clgwli]

I actually appreciate this thread quite a lot. Especially the last post by FB. I am not a fan of the arrows and seek out small diamonds for earrings when I wear them to be steep/deep. I do not personally see it as a negative since I do not care to see dark arrows in an ideal cut diamond.

I am not a real fan of rounds though, and all the ones I buy are very small in comparison. I am more of a fan of antique cuts (though those rounds I usually like) and step cuts. Real patterns like the arrows bother my eyes.

I know many absolutely love the ideal cut rounds. I just personally also think that steep/deep have a place in the diamond world. Not all will want or like them, just not all like the ideal cuts.

JMHO

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/10/2009 8:30:55 PM
Author: James Allen Schultz


Here are two steep/deep diamonds. The one on the left is 34.9/41.2 and looks great in person with no discernible leakage under the table. The one on the right, however, is a good demonstration of when steep/deep can become problematic. I don''t have the angles on the second stone but could get them tomorrow.

Jim, Do you an ogi or sarin scan of the 34.9/41.2?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great point FB.
I''ll bet an almost equal number of people might prefer either the left or the right, in the photo you posted above.
They both look good- some people like hearts and arrows, some don''t.

Jim, thanks for posting those great photos!
I agree that the stone on the right looks dark in the center to an extent beyond what I''d expect to see in a well cut stone.
Is that one an GIA EX cut grade?

 

[John P]

Context please?


Are there any photos documenting the negative aspects of a Steep Deep >>

is like asking "Are there any photos documenting the negative aspects of a pit bull?"

...What dog, specifically? In what environment? Interacting with whom?

Some people like pit bulls, even grumpy ones, especially those who choose to own them. But even the greatest pit bull lover may step back from evil Hans Fido; slavering and rabid slayer-of-postal-workers. Alternatively, there are pit bulls like Cuddles-McBarky that even my aunt the cat person would be cool with.

General answer to the OP question is yes (see the attached). Facing small for weight and/or darkness under the table is considered negative by many tradespeople and consumers alike. Of course (like pit bulls) what is "negative" depends on the specific stone, the lighting and the viewer. There is no "cutoff" for any one measurement. Like many things we (try to) simplify here, it''s not simple.

So my question would be: What stone specifically? In what environment? In who''s opinion?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi John!
Context:
Reading PS threads you see a lot of questions asked about stones that get categorized as "Steep Deep".
The term seems to have negative implications- certainly many people posting here don't like them.

When I asked for photographic evidence, it was because I have not seen a lot of good examples of stones that were bad enough to accurately categorized as posing a problem to a large percentage of viewers. I think it's important to document, best as possible the aspects that many, or most would deem undesirable.
The photo I posted earlier in the thread- and the one FB posted t the top of this page do not show such a problem IMO.

I apologize if they are your photos John- they are good photos. But to my eye they do not demonstrate an "off make" diamond. Which may not have been the intent anyway.
John, the photo in your post directly above this contains an image that does show a ring in the table of the diamond that certainly looks "bad" to me.
Is that a Steep Deep- was it graded EX by GIA?

The stone Jim posted does show what a diamond that is too deep can look like.
Taken in the context of how much information a single close up photo can give you.
Environment plays a huge rule, as does the setting of a diamond. The stone on the right- that Jim posted- does show a dark center that most would agree, looks bad.

My intent was to illustrate true negative aspects actually look like.
There's been a lot of discussion about the range of taste- and how much it impacts what people prefer in diamonds.
There certainly are diamonds that show clear cut negative aspects. There are stones 10 knowledgeable viewers will deem "Off Made"- or badly cut.
Instead of dismissing Steep Deep as "bad" in general- such as by using measurements- I'm suggesting it's beneficial to the conversation, and educational to see photos of what a "bad" steep deep looks like.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Dave,

Caught your thread. I have the optical phenomena of steep/deeps recorded in high def clips but I don''t think I can post links here.

 

[Rhino]

Hi Laila619,

3 VH''s on the Bscope and a steep/deep?

What exactly are the proportions of your diamond if you don''t mind me asking? I''ve yet to see a steep deep get 3 VH''s.

Kind regards,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/10/2009 8:30:55 PM
Author: James Allen Schultz


Here are two steep/deep diamonds. The one on the left is 34.9/41.2 and looks great in person with no discernible leakage under the table. The one on the right, however, is a good demonstration of when steep/deep can become problematic. I don''t have the angles on the second stone but could get them tomorrow.

Hi Jim,
The stone on the left has been painted (most likely on the crown) which lowers the effective steepness deepness.

 

[YoungPapa]

Date: 11/10/2009 8:39:42 PM
Author: Karl_K

Jim, Do you an ogi or sarin scan of the 34.9/41.2?

Sure, but I guess my point is that there are steep/deep diamonds out there that look great but immediately get knocked. If anyone else had posted those numbers (no image) the answer would have been a very quick "no way - no how".

Date: 11/10/2009 11:55:55 PM
Author: RockDiamond

Is that one an GIA EX cut grade?

No. It''s not even GIA graded. I don''t think a diamond like this would ever get a GIA "excellent", but I''ve seen GIA "very goods" that looked pretty close to this.

Date: 11/11/2009 4:48:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Is that one an GIA EX cut grade?

Good to know. If you can paint and dig a 34.9/41.2 into a beautiful diamond should we be so quick to dismiss on angles alone? Or, let me ask the question another way: If I have an AGS Performance report showing a stone has been graded "Ideal" should that trump the steep/deep logic? I''m talking AGS performance Ideal - not GIA predictive Excellent...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 9:04:24 AM
Author: James Allen Schultz

Date: 11/10/2009 8:39:42 PM
Author: Karl_K

Jim, Do you an ogi or sarin scan of the 34.9/41.2?

Sure, but I guess my point is that there are steep/deep diamonds out there that look great but immediately get knocked. If anyone else had posted those numbers (no image) the answer would have been a very quick ''no way - no how''.

Date: 11/10/2009 11:55:55 PM
Author: RockDiamond

Is that one an GIA EX cut grade?

No. It''s not even GIA graded. I don''t think a diamond like this would ever get a GIA ''excellent'', but I''ve seen GIA ''very goods'' that looked pretty close to this.

Date: 11/11/2009 4:48:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Is that one an GIA EX cut grade?

Good to know. If you can paint and dig a 34.9/41.2 into a beautiful diamond should we be so quick to dismiss on angles alone? Or, let me ask the question another way: If I have an AGS Performance report showing a stone has been graded ''Ideal'' should that trump the steep/deep logic? I''m talking AGS performance Ideal - not GIA predictive Excellent...

I have seen some AGS0 showing distinct leakage in Idealscope with angles around steep deep range so for me even with AGS0 I prefer to see images.

 

[Laila619]

Date: 11/11/2009 12:14:10 AM
Author: Rhino
Hi Laila619,

3 VH's on the Bscope and a steep/deep?

What exactly are the proportions of your diamond if you don't mind me asking? I've yet to see a steep deep get 3 VH's.

Kind regards,

Hi Rhino,

It's a Leo diamond (IGI cert, I can hear the snickers now!), so there are no crown or pavilion angles on my IGI cert. However, from seeing other Leos get appraised, they are almost always steep deeps. I think the Leo is deliberately cut with a very high crown. Here is what I do know: my stone has a 63% depth (cringe!

) and a 55% table.

 

[stone-cold11]

ya, specialty cut has a different faceting pattern, so HCA does not apply.

 

[siamese3]

I don''t have any photos that necessarily document the "negative" aspects of steep deep stones, I do have some experience owning one. Long story short, I previously owned an ags graded 000 stone which was purchased from a local jeweler. This is not necessarily the type of stone this jeweler regularly stocks, however when I inquired about his ability to find me one, he quickly brought in some for me to look at. This was seven years ago, before I was aware of pricescope/internet diamond buying. I had, from a long ago (20 some years..yikes!!) previous enegagement, had the fortune to deal with a different jeweler located in another city who carried "ideally" cut stones, and I was intially very drawn to cutters who would choose to maximize the beauty of a stone rather than size and ended up witha a lovely stone that is long gone now and I don''t have any of the info on that stone. Anyhow, back to the present....I found a stone one I liked (prior to pricescope) and it was purchased by my now DH, with the intention to upgrade on our 5 year anniversary. (house building , all sorts of intial expenses..blah, blah blah

That stone was .80 points, F, si1 34.5, 40.7 54% table.

As we approached the impending upgrade anniversary, I stopped in just look at stones in different carat weights to see ultimately where I wanted to be. They bought out a variety, none "ideal" cut stones..however there was a stone in the bunch which was 1.32 carats that My DH and I really liked. It seemed very nice, we looked at it in a variety of lighting and were suprised to find it was a gia graded "very good" cut. We came home and I checked out the numbers here at Pricescope (my first encounter) and learned it was the "dreaded" steep-deep stone. Yikes!! Classic 35.5, 41.2 62.7 deep and with a 59% table. I was advised here to pass on the stone but I decided to "try out" the size and stone thinking that it was no problem to trade it in if I was not happy (trade up policy at b&m) Well, after a week of living with the stone I decided I just had some issues with it. It didn''t seem as crisp around the edges, seemed a bit dark under the table and although very bright, lacked the fire of my old stone. My jeweler thought I was "nuts" and was succumbing to "the numbers" and not just with what my eyes could see. I ended up keeping the stone for almost 2 years and then decided to inquire about having the stone re-cut by Brian Gavin. The stone itself turned out to be a little more difficult than Brian initially thought, however I think it turned out beautifully in the end. It is now 1.2, same color, clarity, 33.7 crown, 41.0 pavillion, 53.3 table, 61.9 deep. It scored 000 with a platinum light performance quality document. The stone is no longer dark under the table, lots of fire and I don''t have to keep it sparkling clean (although I still do

)!! By the way, even my por DH noticed the difference.

Bottom line....Was it a nice diamond before? Yes. Was I swayed by the steep-deep concensus. A bit. BUT I do know that in my individual case, there was a visual difference. Not being a diamond expert, it took me a while to identify what I didn''t like about my stone. I believe that my eyes more a reason for recutting thatn my silly brain!! My preference is for the newly cut stone. I have also learned I prefer the pattern and "crispness'' to a hearts & arrow stone, but that''s a whole other project.

I know my 1.32 was only a very good cut, not excellent but I thought I should comment as the subject greatly interests me.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 11/11/2009 10:32:34 AM
Author: siamese3
I don''t have any photos that necessarily document the ''negative'' aspects of steep deep stones, I do have some experience owning one. Long story short, I previously owned an ags graded 000 stone which was purchased from a local jeweler. This is not necessarily the type of stone this jeweler regularly stocks, however when I inquired about his ability to find me one, he quickly brought in some for me to look at. This was seven years ago, before I was aware of pricescope/internet diamond buying. I had, from a long ago (20 some years..yikes!!) previous enegagement, had the fortune to deal with a different jeweler located in another city who carried ''ideally'' cut stones, and I was intially very drawn to cutters who would choose to maximize the beauty of a stone rather than size and ended up witha a lovely stone that is long gone now and I don''t have any of the info on that stone. Anyhow, back to the present....I found a stone one I liked (prior to pricescope) and it was purchased by my now DH, with the intention to upgrade on our 5 year anniversary. (house building , all sorts of intial expenses..blah, blah blah

That stone was .80 points, F, si1 34.5, 40.7 54% table.

As we approached the impending upgrade anniversary, I stopped in just look at stones in different carat weights to see ultimately where I wanted to be. They bought out a variety, none ''ideal'' cut stones..however there was a stone in the bunch which was 1.32 carats that My DH and I really liked. It seemed very nice, we looked at it in a variety of lighting and were suprised to find it was a gia graded ''very good'' cut. We came home and I checked out the numbers here at Pricescope (my first encounter) and learned it was the ''dreaded'' steep-deep stone. Yikes!! Classic 35.5, 41.2 62.7 deep and with a 59% table. I was advised here to pass on the stone but I decided to ''try out'' the size and stone thinking that it was no problem to trade it in if I was not happy (trade up policy at b&m) Well, after a week of living with the stone I decided I just had some issues with it. It didn''t seem as crisp around the edges, seemed a bit dark under the table and although very bright, lacked the fire of my old stone. My jeweler thought I was ''nuts'' and was succumbing to ''the numbers'' and not just with what my eyes could see. I ended up keeping the stone for almost 2 years and then decided to inquire about having the stone re-cut by Brian Gavin. The stone itself turned out to be a little more difficult than Brian initially thought, however I think it turned out beautifully in the end. It is now 1.2, same color, clarity, 33.7 crown, 41.0 pavillion, 53.3 table, 61.9 deep. It scored 000 with a platinum light performance quality document. The stone is no longer dark under the table, lots of fire and I don''t have to keep it sparkling clean (although I still do

)!! By the way, even my por DH noticed the difference.

Bottom line....Was it a nice diamond before? Yes. Was I swayed by the steep-deep concensus. A bit. BUT I do know that in my individual case, there was a visual difference. Not being a diamond expert, it took me a while to identify what I didn''t like about my stone. I believe that my eyes more a reason for recutting thatn my silly brain!! My preference is for the newly cut stone. I have also learned I prefer the pattern and ''crispness'' to a hearts & arrow stone, but that''s a whole other project.

I know my 1.32 was only a very good cut, not excellent but I thought I should comment as the subject greatly interests me.

These are the things that most resonate for me in this post.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/11/2009 9:04:24 AM
Author: James Allen Schultz
Good to know. If you can paint and dig a 34.9/41.2 into a beautiful diamond should we be so quick to dismiss on angles alone? Or, let me ask the question another way: If I have an AGS Performance report showing a stone has been graded ''Ideal'' should that trump the steep/deep logic? I''m talking AGS performance Ideal - not GIA predictive Excellent...

There are always trade offs to painting and digging.
It would all depend on the extent of it.
There have been some gamed ags0 diamonds posted lately that have the same all around performance of an ags3.
34.9/41.2 is not that far out there and with longer lgf% or a little painting can be brought into line with the top diamonds.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 11/10/2009 3:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


To again point out the obvious- there ARE a lot of badly cut diamonds out there.
I do not feel it''s accurate to categorize diamonds graded ''EX'' cut grade by GIA as badly cut.....even if a group of folks here dislikes their angles.

David, I don''t really think anyone HAS said GIA EX stones are ''badly cut''.

For me, AGS0 is akin to the students who earn ''summa cum laude''; GIA EX is akin to students who earned ''cum laude, magna cum laude, or summa cum laude''. Students who earn the ''cum laude'' or ''magna cum laude'' designations are far from stupid, right? They are smart, but they don''t meet the very narrow parameters of excellence that I think of when I think of ''summa cum laude''.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 11/11/2009 12:19:13 PM
Author: Allison D.

Date: 11/10/2009 3:57:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


To again point out the obvious- there ARE a lot of badly cut diamonds out there.
I do not feel it''s accurate to categorize diamonds graded ''EX'' cut grade by GIA as badly cut.....even if a group of folks here dislikes their angles.

David, I don''t really think anyone HAS said GIA EX stones are ''badly cut''.

Hi Allison, please have a look here. This sort of thing is by no means uncommon on PS
A consumer who is looking at actual diamodns being told GIA''s EX cut grade "is too liberal"- by other consumers who have not seen the stone, but using knowledge gained here. Kind of like the blind leading the blind.


For me, AGS0 is akin to the students who earn ''summa cum laude''; GIA EX is akin to students who earned ''cum laude, magna cum laude, or summa cum laude''. Students who earn the ''cum laude'' or ''magna cum laude'' designations are far from stupid, right? They are smart, but they don''t meet the very narrow parameters of excellence that I think of when I think of ''summa cum laude''.

 

[Rockdiamond]

For me, the issue is not if I like deeper diamonds.
Personally I do not.
I consider 61% to be too deep for a round brilliant.
If asked my opinion, I''d give that as my opinion.

That''s a different thing as compared to the type of thing Jim mentioned- people knocking stones sight unseen, based on numbers, which does happen here frequently.
A consumers asks about a stone, and people who may not prefer such a set of proportions come on and make it sound like the stone in question is a piece of junk.
Just because it''s not what they would pick.

That''s why I''m asking to see actual photos.
So far, only Jim has posted a stone that really does show a problem to my eyes.
And that stone was NOT a GIA EX cut grade.

Jon- good to see ya man!!!

Given that we can''t post our videos here, can you come up with photos?


The term "leakage" is a problem for me as well.
Stones may have dark areas, and that seems to be something we can see and identify.
Leakage? It may be a phrase that arbitrarily "disses" stones for aspects others may find extremely attractive.

 

[Karl_K]

GIA's EX cut grade "is too liberal" <-- true statement in my opinion they let some D students mix in with the best and call the group as a whole the best of the best.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 1:30:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
For me, the issue is not if I like deeper diamonds.
Personally I do not.
I consider 61% to be too deep for a round brilliant.
If asked my opinion, I'd give that as my opinion.

That's a different thing as compared to the type of thing Jim mentioned- people knocking stones sight unseen, based on numbers, which does happen here frequently.
A consumers asks about a stone, and people who may not prefer such a set of proportions come on and make it sound like the stone in question is a piece of junk.
Just because it's not what they would pick.

That's why I'm asking to see actual photos.
So far, only Jim has posted a stone that really does show a problem to my eyes.
And that stone was NOT a GIA EX cut grade.

Jon- good to see ya man!!!

Given that we can't post our videos here, can you come up with photos?


The term 'leakage' is a problem for me as well.
Stones may have dark areas, and that seems to be something we can see and identify.
Leakage? It may be a phrase that arbitrarily 'disses' stones for aspects others may find extremely attractive.

David, my concern is this. As steep deep diamonds are known to have issues and many come here looking for the best cut stone they can find, what is the consumer advisor to do? Tell them that a diamond with steep deep angle combos might be fine and not show leakage? Its a fine line for us to walk, personally I don't want to mislead anyone into buying a diamond which might show leakage especially if there aren't images available to check the diamond out properly, I just don't want to take that risk....I know if it were my money at stake I would rather be given as much info as possible so I could make an informed decision. It is especially difficult when dealing with buyers who prefer to buy from brick and mortar stores where we don't have images. I can tell them how to look for leakage according to my personal methods and observations etc but it can be very difficult if you don't know what to look for....

I do see what you are saying, just trying to give the consumer advisor point of view.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/11/2009 1:30:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
For me, the issue is not if I like deeper diamonds.

Personally I do not.

I consider 61% to be too deep for a round brilliant.

If asked my opinion, I''d give that as my opinion.


That''s a different thing as compared to the type of thing Jim mentioned- people knocking stones sight unseen, based on numbers, which does happen here frequently.

A consumers asks about a stone, and people who may not prefer such a set of proportions come on and make it sound like the stone in question is a piece of junk.

Just because it''s not what they would pick.


That''s why I''m asking to see actual photos.

So far, only Jim has posted a stone that really does show a problem to my eyes.

And that stone was NOT a GIA EX cut grade.


Jon- good to see ya man!!!


Given that we can''t post our videos here, can you come up with photos?



The term ''leakage'' is a problem for me as well.

Stones may have dark areas, and that seems to be something we can see and identify.

Leakage? It may be a phrase that arbitrarily ''disses'' stones for aspects others may find extremely attractive.

PS has always been about chasing the best of the best both in vendors and cut.
Cut is king :}
Consumers are kings :}
That is not going to change because that is what makes PS PS and what has made it work.

 

[kenny]

But cut education is not fair to vendors who have poorly-cut stones to sell.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 11/11/2009 1:39:26 PM
Author: Lorelei

David, my concern is this. As steep deep diamonds are known to have issues and many come here looking for the best cut stone they can find, what is the consumer advisor to do? Tell them that a diamond with steep deep angle combos might be fine and not show leakage? Its a fine line for us to walk, personally I don't want to mislead anyone into buying a diamond which might show leakage especially if there aren't images available to check the diamond out properly, I just don't want to take that risk....I know if it were my money at stake I would rather be given as much info as possible so I could make an informed decision. It is especially difficult when dealing with buyers who prefer to buy from brick and mortar stores. I can tell them how to look for leakage according to my personal methods and observations etc but it can be very difficult if you don't know what to look for....


I do see what you are saying, just trying to give the consumer advisor point of view.

Just keep on doing what you are doing.
Consumers are in good hands with you and the other prosumers helping them.
If some trade members don't like your advise that is their problem.
They can present a journal article and back up their opinions with facts and if they make a compelling case after peer review it can be integrated with the PS knowledge set.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/11/2009 1:45:36 PM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 11/11/2009 1:39:26 PM
Author: Lorelei

David, my concern is this. As steep deep diamonds are known to have issues and many come here looking for the best cut stone they can find, what is the consumer advisor to do? Tell them that a diamond with steep deep angle combos might be fine and not show leakage? Its a fine line for us to walk, personally I don''t want to mislead anyone into buying a diamond which might show leakage especially if there aren''t images available to check the diamond out properly, I just don''t want to take that risk....I know if it were my money at stake I would rather be given as much info as possible so I could make an informed decision. It is especially difficult when dealing with buyers who prefer to buy from brick and mortar stores. I can tell them how to look for leakage according to my personal methods and observations etc but it can be very difficult if you don''t know what to look for....


I do see what you are saying, just trying to give the consumer advisor point of view.

Just keep on doing what your are doing.
Consumers are in good hands with you and the other prosumers helping them.
If some trade members don''t like your advise that is their problem.
They can present a journal article and back up their opinions with facts and if they make a compelling case after peer review it can be integrated with the PS knowledge set.

Thank you Karl, that means a lot to me!

 

[stone-cold11]

David, try explaining this then. Prime example of steep deep.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1190758.asp

GIA Ex Cut grade,

T 58%, CA 36, PA 41.2. Dark under the table, similar to what James posted above.

 

[kenny]

This is even better than a pic that documents the negative aspects of a steep deep.

Here's a Steep Deep next to Well Cut Diamond

 

[kenny]

Here''s a GIA EX cut next to a GIA VG cut