Appraisors prior to buying ? Yea or Nea?

[luckystar]

I am all for using independant appraisors prior to making a purchase. However, reading many peoples experiances and sending 3 stones to differrent appraisors I am a bit unsure about the practice.

Why is it every stone is great?
Why doesn't the appraisor say this stone is a dog go find another?
Why are the complements of the stone in such a way that they could be taken either way?

For example, my appraisor said something to the effect that my @#$% stone was among the best he has ever seen. Then I find out later he has never seen %^&* types of stones so the complement meant nothing.

I think if you sent two stones in they would probably pick the best. BUT I kinda think they are going to tell you what you want to hear simply to keep you from cancelling the sell.




Please chime in and show me I am mistaken in my assumptions. I want to be wrong.

Dancing fire says:
i ask same the Qs in the pass and never got a REAL answer from any appraisers.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 12/2/2005 6:46:06 PM
Author:luckystar

I am all for using independant appraisors prior to making a purchase. However, reading many peoples experiances and sending 3 stones to appraisors I am a bit unsure about the practice.

Why is it every stone is great?
Why doesn't the appraisor say this stone is a dog go find another?
Why are the complements of the stone in such a way that they could be taken either way?

For example, my appraisor said something to the effect that my @#$% stone was among the best he has ever seen. Then I find out later he has never seen %^&* types of stones so the complement meant nothing.

I think if you sent two stones in they would probably pick the best. BUT I kinda think they are going to tell you what you want to hear simply to keep you from cancelling the sell.






Please chime in and show me I am mistaken in my assumptions. I want to be wrong.

Dancing fire says:
i ask same the Qs in the pass and never got a REAL answer from any appraisers.

Dear Lucky


While there are some appraisers who probably will "rubber stamp" and make comment that every stone they see if a good buy, the more advanced appraisers out there I don't believe will do this.

I know I call a "spade a spade". I believe the consumer needs to know more than "does the stone match the report?" Gem lab reports are limited as to how complete the information about them is. But even if the stone is properly represented, it should be "everything" you want it to be. The "wrong" stone, even if priced well, and represented correctly isn't what the consumers wants. So the appraiser should be virtually turning himself "inside out" in extensive conversations to know what you expect from your choice of stone(s) sent to them.

Even the best stones have unique characteristics, and discussing those characteristics is vital for you in getting the complete information needed to make a well informed purchasing decision.

As for the appraiser who doesn't have the experience of seeing the "super ideal" type diamonds, as you have pointed out, this is a very important part of the analysis. As a "measuring stick" the appraiser who has the advanced equipment and technological tools, is going to be your best bet in the selection of "appraising the appraiser". I admit I've been a bit spoiled in seeing these types of stones. There is a difference between the almost very best and the very best. I constantly look at diamonds that are commonly sold as we have a lot of jewelry stores here, and many of them don't have a clue as to how incredibly a diamond can be cut.

Most local appraisers do not have the advanced equipment needed to separate the "almost very best" from the best. Those that see "average" cut diamonds and then see an Ideal H&A - it does appear so much better, that they will give it a stelllar opinion. For those of us, who consistently see the best out there, we are far more discerning and experienced to provide really well based and supported opinion through extensive and thorough reports.

I do see "rats" and have no faintness of heart in telling the client if the stone is less than he wants expects. But sometimes consumers, due to budget constraints, pick stones that are not the best that is out there.

In determining which appraiser you really want to use, call several of them on the phone. Discuss the tests he'll do, the reports he'll render, the equipment and educational background he has, as well as the scope of the assignment. A personal phone call is a lot better to get know what the appraiser does and judge the appraiser. That should help you greatly in narrowing down your selection of who will do the best job.

You have some great questions about this, and if you have more just add more to this thread.


Rockdoc

 

[denverappraiser]

Luckystar,

Variations of this question come up occasionally and they are a bit difficult to answer because of the implications that are inherent in your questions. It’s rather like asking: “When did you stop beating your wife?” That said, I’ll try to answer as best I can.

Why is it every stone is great?
Why doesn't the appraisor say this stone is a dog go find another?

No clue. You'll have to ask your appraiser. I see marginal stones regularly and I describe them to the best of my ability, just like I do the premium ones. I give more detail than most people even know is possible. I don’t see all that many of the really bad rocks but I think this is because the customers who are buying the real junk aren’t interested in hiring an appraiser to tell them this. They were cheap, which is why they bought them in the first place, and professional appraisal fees would defeat the entire purpose of their purchase. SOMEONE called it a good stone after all. Apparently they would prefer to rely on the free report that says they own the crown jewels than to pay someone to tell them otherwise. I regularly find my clients will decide to return a stone and continue their shopping exercise with other stones after their session with me, presumably based on some of the things I’ve told them. No, I don’t call stones dogs, nor to I tell my clients what they should be buying although, if the client mentiones that they intend to return it, we do discuss some of the criteria so that they can better describe their requirements to the dealers for the next go around. I have very few customers who feel that their session with me was a waste (at least there are few that tell me about it if they feel this way), including the ones who find it necessary to schedule more than one appointment to end up with the right stone.

Why are the complements of the stone in such a way that they could be taken either way?

Not everyone is looking for the same thing in a stone and it’s the job of the appraiser to tell you the facts, not to tell you what you should like. I’m happy to discuss whether I agree with the description of a stone that was sold as a G color and I will point out that G’s generally cost more than otherwise similar H’s, but I would never go to the conclusion that you should therefore be buying a G, nor would I describe them as ‘better’.

For example, my appraisor said something to the effect that my @#$% stone was among the best he has ever seen. Then I find out later he has never seen %^&* types of stones so the complement meant nothing.

I can’t speak for your appraiser, but I would never make such a description. Ask them.

Just out of curiosity. You are clearly dissatisfied with the service you are getting from you appraiser but you have sent them 3 stones. Why do you continue to use them?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Dancing Fire]

Neil
i don''t understand why would it be a problem telling your client that a stone is a dog (if it was) b/c this is pre purchase,it would''nt hurt my feelings,i haven''t pay for the stone yet.

 

[strmrdr]

The appraisers job is to give you a professional opinion of the diamond and describe its characteristics in detail.
It is up to the client to take that information and use it.

Saying its great or its a dog is a personal opinion and pretty useless in itself.

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 12/2/2005 6:46:06 PM
Author:luckystar

I am all for using independant appraisors prior to making a purchase. However, reading many peoples experiances and sending 3 stones to appraisors I am a bit unsure about the practice.

Why is it every stone is great?
Why doesn''t the appraisor say this stone is a dog go find another?
Why are the complements of the stone in such a way that they could be taken either way?

For example, my appraisor said something to the effect that my @#$% stone was among the best he has ever seen. Then I find out later he has never seen %^&* types of stones so the complement meant nothing.

I think if you sent two stones in they would probably pick the best. BUT I kinda think they are going to tell you what you want to hear simply to keep you from cancelling the sell.




Please chime in and show me I am mistaken in my assumptions. I want to be wrong.

Dancing fire says:
i ask same the Qs in the pass and never got a REAL answer from any appraisers.

appraisers are a waste of time in many many cases...........if you are buying from Whiteflash or JAmes ALlen (Or any other reputable dealer)and the stone has a GIA/AGS cert and youve done your homework on cut parameters..........you are WASTING your money to send it to an appraiser. If you want to buy and uncerted, lesser certed stone, second hand, estate or otherwise stone or ring....well then absolutely. I threw away 350 on an appraisal that told me NOTHING I didnt already know

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 12/2/2005 11:24:57 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Neil
i don''t understand why would it be a problem telling your client that a stone is a dog (if it was) b/c this is pre purchase,it would''nt hurt my feelings,i haven''t pay for the stone yet.

Dancing Fire,

Is an I-1 M a dog? Are transitional cuts or Euros dogs? Many people think so and they are less popular for this reason but being unpopular doesn''t make them defective. It does generally make them less expensive. If they client is looking for an M, the seller has correctly represented it as a M and it''s been appropriately priced as a M, where''s the problem? Undisclosed durability problems or pre-existing damage are huge red flag topics and I will zoom in on them in detail. This almost always will result in the stone being returned and both the customer and the dealer being annoyed about the whole transaction but even this is a stretch to call a dog because, at the right price, some people are happy to take the risks. My job is to make sure they properly understand what those risks are so that they can make an informed choice. In the end, the client is the one who makes the decision.

Window Shopper,

I’m sorry to hear that you were disappointed with your appraisal. Hopefully, I wasn’t your appraiser. I agree that appraisers are not always necessary in pre-purchase decisions and they get recommended for a lot of dubious reasons. The underlying question that drives many of these appraisal sessions is: “Is the dealer cheating me?” This is a valid question and a point of concern for many buyers although it’s far from the only issue that people are interested in. It’s usually not that all that hard to answer and, in the case of the dealers you mention, I agree that it’s very unlikely to be a problem. $350 is a pretty steep fee to address this particular issue. I don’t know what else the appraiser did for you and so can’t really comment the value of their services. Did you have them examine a bunch of stones and assist you in choosing which one? Most single item pre-purchase appraisals are considerably less expensive than this.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/2/2005 6:46:06 PM
Author:luckystar


I kinda think they are going to tell you what you want to hear.

From the story it seems that the appraiser(s) you have went to have not told you what you wanted to hear - quite on the contrary...


In other domains, there is this 'double blind' review standard. It should apply to jewelry appraisals as well

I would expect at the very least to get a reality check good enough to expose misrepresentation from an appraisal, which is allot more useful before the transaction becomes final. Of course other questions are useful sometimes - but asking an appraiser to advise a purchase may not be self evident when you ask their service. Perhaps such conversation should be opened up differently.

It must be difficult to match the buyer's expectation, budget and rock every time. Perhaps these half-useless double talk you allude to has been meant to as a one-size-fits-all solution.


Anyway, I am all for having a chat before going for an appraiser's opinion, explaining in detail what your expectations are from their service and you really want to hear from them (not the conclusion of the evaluation, of course, but the sort of questions you want answered).

There are a few appraisers posting often on this forum (Neil and 'Roc Doc', David Atlas, Richard Sherwood, 'Newenglangemlab'). If you wanted, perhaps they could advice on what exactly should you (and everyone else reading these threads) ask an appraiser for.

 

[denverappraiser]

Ana,

Here is a discussion with some thoughts on the matter.

I absolutely agree that good shopping skills should be applied to appraisal services just like everything else. There''s quite a lot of bad work being done under the guise of independent appraisals.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[RockDoc]

Hi Neil

Great thread that you alerted consumers to.

Every consumer should read it.

Rockdoc

 

[Richard Sherwood]

duplicate post...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/3/2005 1:35:39 AM
Author: windowshopper
appraisers are a waste of time in many many cases...........

What about the cases where they are not a "waste of time"? And how does a consumer know when it is and when it isn't a "waste of time"?

Here's some benefits I can think of in regards to your appraisal (which I can tell from the fee charged that I didn't do, just for the record):

The stone was verified to be the one represented, and matching the cert.
The grading was verified as correct, & possibly if the grading was solid or borderline.
It was determined that no damage had been done to the stone since being "certed".
It was verified that the stone didn't have any problems which you didn't know about.
The proportions were verified as being correct, and the optical performance confirmed.
You received an impartial opinion as to value, and whether you were paying a fair price.
You received a document you could use for insurance.
Your peace of mind regarding the stone was solidified.

It's like getting a physical. If you check out fine, was it a "waste of time"? If you don't check out fine, wasn't it some of the best money you ever spent?

I'm assuming your diamond was an expensive investment. Didn't you feel better writing that check (or not returning the stone) after receiving confirmation from a non-involved professional that your stone was represented correctly, and gorgeous?

if you are buying from Whiteflash or JAmes ALlen (Or any other reputable dealer)and the stone has a GIA/AGS cert and youve done your homework on cut parameters..........you are WASTING your money to send it to an appraiser.

I can tell you unequivocally that I and the other appraisers responding here have caught several mistakes, oversights, defects, and "surprise" problems in appraising GIA/AGS diamonds from reputable vendors.

We are all humans here. Mistakes and oversights are part and parcel of being human. Our job as appraisers is to protect you from losing because of those mistakes and oversights.

If you want to buy and uncerted, lesser certed stone, second hand, estate or otherwise stone or ring....well then absolutely.

Agreed.

I threw away 350 on an appraisal that told me NOTHING I didnt already know

As I pointed out above, the fact that your appraisal told you nothing you didn't already know was a good thing. Kind of like finding out you don't have cancer after getting a physical.

As for what you paid, you didn't "throw it away". You paid for a valuable service that kept you out of trouble. If you think you overpaid, that's one thing. But you didn't "throw it away".

What if that diamond had been put in the wrong paper, and didn't match the cert? Would you have been "throwing your money away" then when the appraiser informed you?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/3/2005 11:28:42 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

As I pointed out above, the fact that your appraisal told you nothing you didn''t already know was a good thing.

... err... a good thing that is very difficult to recognize as such.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/3/2005 9:57:56 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Ana,

Here is a discussion with some thoughts on the matter.

I absolutely agree that good shopping skills should be applied to appraisal services just like everything else.

Yes... you surely spent time on the comprehensive report there

I was asking something a bit different:

- what could someone ask for so that they avoid 'rubber stamp' appraisals and hear what detraction makes the piece he has and its price as is.

From the way the current thread started, it sounds like this type of information is not central to appraisals by default. Maybe for psychological reasons, maybe by tradition... and this came as a surprise. Pricescope's FAQ makes it sound like shopper's heaven all over rather than indicate a small island of exceptional service

Is it fare to assume that appraisers will tell anyone whether theirs is a good buy or not and exactly why? It is not called 'personal shopper service' after all, but some of the implied benefits of appraisal before final sale could be similar.

 

[Regular Guy]

I think shopping for an appraiser is not easy. On the one hand, if you have certain criteria you want to have met, and you''re in an "advance of" purchasing mode, you could get agreement with the appraiser prior to engagement that you''re looking for certain threshold requirements to be met, and can they help you with that. However, in other important shopping situations...as for example, when I sought help for an educational advocate for my children, you could try early to hold the expert''s feet to the fire with respect to expectations, get their agreement, and find later that that''s really not what they do well, as you, the customer defined what you wanted, independent of what they more readily offered.

Three things can be helpful in this shopping (for an appraiser) it seems to me, and all can be accessed from this board, by and large:

1) a sample appraisal from the appraiser, to see what a standard output of their work looks like. In most cases, you can link to the appraisers website at top right under "Resources" for those referenced here, and see this. Even for those who haven''t gotten around to doing this, you can find examples of their appraisals occasionally tucked away on the boards here.
2) detailing of the appraiser''s hardware and focus, also upper right, thanks to Pricescope, under resources
3) what do they think about things, and how do you like them. Based on the benefit of being able to attend to the appraisers'' voice as represented on these threads, throughout this forum, many of the more talented ones do post here, and you can know them pretty well here, too.

 

[RockDoc]

There is another service that might be helpful for understanding if you did or did not get your money's worth.


It is called a review appraisal. The report you got would be reviewed and a narrative conclusion as to the validity of the report narratively explained. This would point out the good points and bad points of the report, disclose lacking or neglected portions as well.

In the spirit of educating, I'd offer to do one for your report as a consumer service. I would think Neil, David, Richard and others might offer to participate in this too.


Rockdoc

 

[luckystar]

Wow, I am glad people are giving their opinion. It is clear I am not the only one a bit dissatisfied with the process. Perhaps it is my expectations that are wrong. I thought I was paying for an independant expert opinion.

As I clearly stated, I think appraisors do have a place in this world and I have used 3 different ones in my buying process.But Neil even if I used the same one it still would not make my points without validity in fact they would be more valid.

I think some appraisors value their relationship with the stone sellers more than a one time client and I think SOME withhold info on stones rather than jeopardize that relationship!

Each one of mine used double talk when I had clearly defined questions regarding the gem.

For one guy, I had to ask the same question over and over regarding a possible stress point and he kept ignoring me.
I did not need them to verify the lab report. I trusted the store for that. For the diamond I wanted him/her to tell me His/her opinion on the cut job,stress and light return and nothing else. And those where the questions I put forth.

NO I don''t think an appraisor should say a fine cut M is a DOG. Color is a personal choice!!
But I do expect him/her to tell me immediately that my stone is to shallow and will have bad light return. That is a fact!!!!!!
I do want her to say that the girdle is too thin and it may chip. I DOOO want him to say the fluoro is too strong and hazes the stone!!

As a matter of fact my appraisors said exactly what I wanted, that my choices where fine -but I am not so sure they where telling the truth as their double talk and refusal to put anything in writing smacked of deception.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/3/2005 1:36:43 PM
Author: luckystar

But I do expect him/her to tell me immediately that my stone is to shallow and will have bad light return. That is a fact!!!!!!

Well... since there is no widely accepted standard for 'light return' anyone can tell you whatever they think.

And since cut metrics (light return measurements with different devices etc) are all matters of branding of rounds and proprietary cuts not generic fancies, yours may not be such a straightforward question.

I think some appraisors value their relationship with the stone sellers more than a one time client and I think SOME withhold info on stones rather than jeopardize that relationship!

That may be hard to tell... I am wondering if it is the relationship with their own clients (i.e. you) that telling what you want to hear protects. After all, many might be happy to hear the 'polite' side of things. A customer that hears what they want to hear is a satisfied one as long as they believe in it. You didn't. Most just might. I suppose that apraiser's businesses just like any others want 'satisfied customers' out of the door and gear their service to whatever the average customer will likely be happy with. If you are not such 'average customer' chances are the average appaiser business will not have the right answers for you

My 0.02

 

[Modified Brilliant]

I can tell you unequivocally that I and the other appraisers responding here have caught several mistakes, oversights, defects, and "surprise" problems in appraising GIA/AGS diamonds from reputable vendors.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely, Rich! In fact, appraisers even get letters and kind notes from clients after we find "problems" after their purchase is made!
Oftentimes, a consumer has just spent 5,10,15K. Working for YOU, the consumer, I am doing my job and saving you a ton of aggravation, stress, money and buyer''s remorse. Just thought I''d take a few minutes to tell everyone that most appraisers work very hard on behalf of the consumer!
Got to get back to work now. (No, the $350 job was not mine, either!)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[denverappraiser]

Luckystar,

I can’t speak for the appraisers you have met with but you mentioned several things that definitely don’t apply to my own practice.

Thin girdle. Girdle thickness is discussed with every client. If it’s a durability risk, I highlight this as an important element. If it reduces the value of the stone (which it does if it’s a durability risk), I discuss how much it changes the value and why.

Stress problems, when they are present, are discussed in every session. I discuss them with every client who asks, even when they aren’t present.

Light performance of the stone is discussed with every client. I don’t supply a BrillianceScope examination with every stone because many clients aren’t interested and don’t want to pay the fee. For those who request it, I include one. Clients who like these tend to gravitate towards the dealers who include them as part of the sale so it’s not requested frequently but it’s common for them to ask questions about a dealer supplied report or photograph that they don’t fully understand. I include a full Sarin report on each stone and discuss any details of note. I include IdealScope imagery in every report and I discuss with every client what is, and what is not, learned from these images about light performance. Cut is a personal choice too. Not everyone cares for the H&A look, for example, and Euros can be quite lovely despite their ‘poor’ optics. Shallow stones face up bigger and are usually less expensive. For many customers this is a desirable tradeoff.

Fluorescence. Again, I test every stone, every time. If it has a hazing effect on the stone in certain lighting I discuss this and it is reflected in the value conclusion. If fluorescence is present but doesn’t affect the value, I mention this as well.

I put everything in writing. Some of my reports are 20 pages long.

Concerns about collusion between the appraiser and the dealer is a problem in the industry and a big worry for consumers. That’s the reason that some of us refuse to buy or sell the items we appraise and why we don’t refer clients to dealers who do. We specialize in appraising and let others do the sales, designing, setting and insuring. My preference is to not even know who the dealer is in order to avoid even a perception of collusion. There are plenty of appraisers who don’t take this step and this doesn’t make their work wrong or inaccurate but catering to clients with exactly this concern is a specialty niche that is well represented on this board. What could we do to cause you to be less concerned about this?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[luckystar]

Hmmm perhaps I should send my next stone to you!
Thanks for all the responses. It appears the answer to my query lies in between and of course not all appraisors practice the same way.

Ana said: If you are not such 'average customer' chances are the average appaiser business will not have the right answers for you
I never said I was really disapointed with what my appraisors said. In fact I never questioned the validity until I read a 10000 accounts here of appraisors saying every single solitary stone they see is wonderful. That cannot be true! I am not a hell of a customer. I have a valid point and brought up something many consumers have thought about but were afraid too.

Question authority pricescopers!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/3/2005 1:36:43 PM
Author: luckystar
-but I am not so sure they where telling the truth as their double talk and refusal to put anything in writing smacked of deception.

An appraisal which is not put in writing is worth the paper it is written on.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 12/3/2005 5:39:58 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 12/3/2005 1:36:43 PM
Author: luckystar
-but I am not so sure they where telling the truth as their double talk and refusal to put anything in writing smacked of deception.

An appraisal which is not put in writing is worth the paper it is written on.

HI Richard

I agree, but an awful lot of even the ones put in writing aren''t work the paper as well...

Rockdoc

 

[Dancing Fire]

i'm going to send couple of these to Rich and Neil.

i want to hear their polite way of saying ...what a POS. i'm sure they will be speechless.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/site-of-ugly-diamonds.19873/page-2

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/3/2005 4:36:07 PM
Author: luckystar

In fact I never questioned the validity until I read a 10000 accounts here of appraisors saying every single solitary stone they see is wonderful. That cannot be true!

That can''t be true. The rings talked about are not exactly a random sample either.



I am not a hell of a customer.

No... of course not and I didn''t intend previous posts here to sound that way at all. I meant that the ''average'' is low and you are looking at it from a neat ventage point