Answering tough questions about online diamonds

[Bagpuss]

Thank heavens there are still some people out there that can see that taking the moral high ground can also still make good business sense.

Thank you for your very rounded and well thought out comments, Paul.

 

[lostdog]

"Sorry, I thought my question was rather clear and straight forward. You visited B&M's. The experiences were not acceptable. At least one had similar stone(s). What could they have done to make your experience acceptable?"

I was reading differently, but now I see. It was hard to compare, hard to get information, nearly impossible to discuss cut. What they could have done to make things acceptable: provide more information of all sorts, discuss price openly, don't push me towards a decision before I've made it, do have a return policy, don't (try to) hide the markup in the setting, do stock wide range of settings, don't building in a two-week period to set the ring in a standard setting, don't call non-eye-clean stones eye-clean, don't tell me I can't see the difference between a J and a G and a D, don't try to paper over questions with recitations fo how long you've been in the business.

Anyway, i don't think retail has to be an adversarial, win-lose game, any more than any other sort of business. You perform a service and somebody willing pays you an agreed upon value for that service. That can be win-win.

"More and more vendors are working with retailers of all fashions to provide additional information. The wheels of change turn slowly. If figures that Leonid referred to are accurate, about 1% of diamond sales are via online vendors. These are the vendors typically providing and encouraging folks to use, the most technical infomation. This leaves billions of dollars of stones that account for 99% of the sales without all the additional information. "

The article in today's NYT quotes internet sales as 2% of the market now.

 

[Bagpuss]

Date: 2/9/2005 12:35:22 PM
Author: crankydave

Date: 2/9/2005 10:39:50 AM
Author: Bagpuss
Why would any vendor not having the results to the above, or the abilty to provide them, want to enter into a discussion about them? Knowing what these things are and be able to provide the results are two entirely different things. Why would any vendor want to tell a potential customer to go to a competitor that uses a different technology or more than they do? I''ll venture a guess and say that the first sales associate that did this would be looking for new employment in short order. I don''t forsee all vendors becoming more like labs in the near future. Quote CD

If a store doesn''t have the info I want and doesn''t want to get it for me, fine, I''ll go elsewhere. Trying to hide the fact that they''re not able (or willing for whatever reason) to deal with me on my terms, by telling me that I don''t know what I''m talking about or telling straightforward lies or by trying to put me down is what I object to. All these things have happened to me with so-called ''traditional'' jewellers. Do they really think that customers are going to put up with that?

Dissing your (wealthy) customers is not exactly going to put money in your bank account either.

Bagpuss,

Please do not put words in my mouth. I don''t know where you''re finding in the comments or questions I pose that I think it''s OK to diss anyone. I''ve suggested nothing of the sort. Quite frankly how much money any customer has is of zero concern to me and to suggest such is clearly wrong and insulting.

Paul,

More and more vendors are working with retailers of all fashions to provide additional information. The wheels of change turn slowly. If figures that Leonid referred to are accurate, about 1% of diamond sales are via online vendors. These are the vendors typically providing and encouraging folks to use, the most technical infomation. This leaves billions of dollars of stones that account for 99% of the sales without all the additional information. Could you provide any type of figure or insight as to what it would cost to re-evalute the billions of dollars of stones?

Dave

Dave, but you''ve misread my post. I didn''t mean to imply that you were disrespecting anyone, I meant that those B&M jewellers who react to customers in the ways I described were disrespecting them. You were saying that certain types of sales behaviour wouldn''t put money in their accounts and I was trying to point out that this kind of behaviour (which I''ve personally experienced in certain B&M stores) wouldn''t either.

I''m sorry that you read it to apply to you, that wasn''t my intention.

I can see your point about the real difficulties faced by B&M stores when they come up against customers who have very specific questions which they''re not in a position to answer. All I''m saying is that there are much better ways of handling them than putting them down. I''d be quite happy with a store that admited that it didn''t sell ''ideal'' cut diamonds but would be happy to show me what stones they did have and would like to explain why they thought their diamonds were as good a buy (or even better) as the ideal cut stones and then gave me some sensible reasons to back up their claims, not just "trust me ''cos I say so".

Pax?

 

[lostdog]

"So if the vendor would have accomplished all these things to your satisfaction, you would have paid 60-70% more? "

Possibly I would have paid something more if I didn't realize I had other options. If I wasn't dissatified with the instore experiences, I wouldn't have looked so hard on line and realized they were so much higher in the first place.

The stores that would have been such a huge margin higher than the PS vendors, it looked at first like paying that much was a necessary step for top quality, and the proprietary cuts were the only way to be sure. Whether I wanted to be at that price point for that quality given what it did to shrink c weight was probably the bigger question. I knew the price gap between ho-hum and excellent was huge, and while I like quality, I couldn't justify where the money was going at that point. If I had had more money to spend, I might have just set aside X and bit the bullet and paid it.

But once I realized it wasn't just a high price compared to what they paid for the stone, but a much higer price than what I could pay for those sorts of stones, no, I wouldn't have paid that.

 

[lostdog]

"The article in today's NYT quotes internet sales as 2% of the market now. Discount reatailers as 10% up from 6% in 1999, Department stores I forget, but around 20% and gaining, and traditional jewelers as 36% down from 44%.

Wasn't that total sales"

I corrected my numbers above. See the NYT thread in diamond hangout. Leonid posted the actual graphic.

It is total sales, not market share of diamond sales. Department stores aren't up, they're down over the last few years, I had that wrong, though they are up for the recent holiday season.

 

[Bagpuss]

No store is worthy of anyones business if they are treating their clients badly. We do agree putting customers down is not what to do. CrankyDave

I''m glad that we agree at last!

 

[Bagpuss]

Date: 2/9/2005 3

8:57 PM
Author: crankydave

Date: 2/9/2005 3

6:36 PM
Author: Bagpuss
No store is worthy of anyones business if they are treating their clients badly. We do agree putting customers down is not what to do. CrankyDave

I''m glad that we agree at last!

We never did disagree on that. We just took the ''scenic route'' figuring it out!

Dave

You so remind me of my dh - loves to play devil''s advocate with me, especially when I don''t realise that he''s doing it!

 

[lostdog]

"But once I realized it wasn''t just a high price compared to what they paid for the stone, but a much higer price than what I could pay for those sorts of stones, no, I wouldn''t have paid that.
This is not to minimize the importance of everthing else, but in your case, the vendor would have had to overcome price before all the rest would have really mattered."

I thought that''s where you might be going with this, but in terms of online/offline, if I had enough information and was otherwise comfortable with process, I wouldn''t have gone to the length of considering the internet for a purchase.

I was put off after learning about quailty, ideal and near ideal cuts, and then going into stores and not being able to get real answers on anything in relation to that except sometimes table or depth %. The only way I could be sure about quality working from what was in stock was to go to a branded 8* or HOF. Prices were clearly a jump for those cpmared to toher B&M options and I couldn''t justify it. That is not to say I was against a B&M, I visited close to a dozen, some multiple times, hoping for something good. A few were very friendly and nice about it, some lived up to the negative stereotype.

So seeing how disadvantaged I felt by the process, it was worth it to explore the online option. I was thrilled to be able to get a stone whose idealscope I could see, whose Sarin I could see, and with an AGS cert, and so on. If a B&M had provided a similar option, I would own a similar stone from them right now from them. Just somewhat smaller.

In the end, sure, the financial savings clinched the decision. There''s a lot to overcome buying online. The idea that I would get something better was the incentive to wade through the online buying learning curve, and price did help eventually pull the trigger, but I was only in postion to take the shot because the B&M''s I experienced were not living up to my needs, with or without making price a primary factor.

Price wasn''t the driver. But top quality, information, good policies, selection, AND lower price? Very convincing.

i never expected to do as well as I did, or I would have gone to the net much quicker. Perhaps explaining with hindsight makes my intentions sound different than they were.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It is interesting that cut became the most important factor in internet diamonds since it is the one thing that can not be ''seen'' online.
So Pricescope has bcome the leading website not just in prices, but also cut information and even R&D.

It is truly amazing that so few retailers think that GIA course notes will help in this regard.

Wakie wakie dinasaurs

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/10/2005 9:21:18 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 2/10/2005 12:11

9 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
It is interesting that cut became the most important factor in internet diamonds since it is the one thing that can not be ''seen'' online.

As I said earlier, many internet vendors worked very hard to differentiate themselves in just this way.. I think that things like Sarin and the Idealscope and even the HCA calculator have obviously been developed as a response to the needs of the internet vendors.. I can count the B&M vendors in our area that have Ideal Scopes in the showroom on one finger.. But with the net, since you can''t hold the stone in your hands, you need some way to explain what it is through text and 2D pictures, those two things do that very well..

The ''net vendors have done a wonderful job of marketing what they had effectively..

True, but having been a cut nut from way back (not a super looper douper cut freak), cut is the most pleasing aspect of a stone. Selling a stone sight unseen with a pleasing cut is far more likely to be accepted than rejected - hence the reason for internet vendors to have more focus on it. For the most part, it''s what the eye sees - provided the stone isn''t clouded with junk or too yellowy looking.

As Dave pointed out - cut is the least graded aspect of a stone. And, as such can be where money can be made in the reverse.

That said, I think many who shop in trad B&M''s want a mark stone (like 1 carat). In order to provide stones like that, cut often suffers for that magic mark. I think that B&M''s focus more on what consumers *wanted*. I''m not sure the internet isn''t changing the way a consumer looks at a diamond.

The issue comes down to a couple of things. I don''t need a sarin. Give me the basics - table, depth, sym, mm, - gia stuff, guidance for a GG, & *MY* eyes and I can decide yay or nay. BUT - it seems to me that trad. B&M''s don''t focus on well cut stones because that''s not what''s demanded or where the money really lies. I haven''t found many B&M''s that focus on cut unless they are selling HOF, LK, etc. Maybe this will change. Funny, I have had more cut discussions with estate jewelers than trad B&M''s.

Bottom line - I don''t need to have geeky nano numbers discussions with my jeweler. I want my jeweler to provide me with stones with very good makes at a "competetive" price. It''s not rocket science. But, doesn''t seem to be the norm in trad B&M''s.

Honestly - Just my observation. Very few discuss cut if they are not selling the branded stones.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/10/2005 11:14:47 AM
Author: crankydave
The issue comes down to a couple of things. I don''t need a sarin. Give me the basics - table, depth, sym, mm, - gia stuff, guidance for a GG, & *MY* eyes and I can decide yay or nay. BUT - it seems to me that trad. B&M''s don''t focus on well cut stones because that''s not what''s demanded or where the money really lies. I haven''t found many B&M''s that focus on cut unless they are selling HOF, LK, etc. Maybe this will change. Funny, I have had more cut discussions with estate jewelers than trad B&M''s.

F & I

In your case, were/are the traditional B&M''s able to discuss the ''basics'' with some semblance of credibility or knowledge?

Dave

Some yes. Some no. Some dissed that I even asked for more information than just color/clarity/size. The jeweler I ended up purchasing from, yes he got cut- ironically a primarily an Estate jeweler - not a trad B&M - he was an owner operator. Any email coorespondence (he would email me stones that may be of interest to call in) included the appropriate information I required - basically the line item table, depth, sym, fluor, etc.

I have had the most success with trad B&M''s who were primarily owner operated. And, if they had any sales force, they knew enough to know that they needed help. But, many jeweler''s I visited in my fact finding mission (who *all* had a shot at my money), were somewhat dismal. I''m trying to be honest here & not lump all B&M''s together. They didn''t get it - cut that is. It didn''t seem to matter when it mattered to me. In other words, many didn''t listen. Some didn''t know. Some competely dissed my wanting a stone with a very good make.

 

[solange]

Many people fall into jobs or businesses that are not really that interesting to them. They are just interested in making money. Therefore they do not have the desire to know anything more than how to push through a sale. Up until this point, it worked for many jewelers. If they are dealing with customers who are uninformed, they can tell the customer just about anything and still sound like an expert. Some jewelers are excellent sales people and know how to develop a good relationship. They get referrals and their customers trust them. One of the best sales pitches I have often heard is that the stone looks much larger than it is--like a 4.50 stone with a 5.25 spread. "Your friends will drop dead when they see this." Or" if you don't buy it today, it will be gone tomorrow."

Many of the jewelers in the Diamond District were very resentful when I asked about cut. The attitude was that I could just take their word that it was Ideal. As consumers become more enlightened,they will want more information and will not be willing to buy overpriced and inferior merchandise.

There are some vendors, such as Jonathan at GoodOldGold, who have retail stores and have a great interest in diamonds and are always looking for more information. The study of diamonds is a passion, not just a business.They are generous in sharing information. These are the vendors who will attract customers, whether on the internet or retail, because they are sending you in the right direction and you are not likely to have regrets at a later date..

 

[Bagpuss]

Quote F&I
Bottom line - I don''t need to have geeky nano numbers discussions with my jeweler. I want my jeweler to provide me with stones with very good makes at a "competetive" price. It''s not rocket science. But, doesn''t seem to be the norm in trad B&M''s.


That''s exactly where I was coming from and I only found it once in a local B&M store. I bought a diamond from from him very happily and will go back to him in the future.