am I being too realistic?

[rainbowtrout]

So here''s the lowdown. Since I got into graduate school I''ve been speaking to my profs about their experiances with trying to raise a family and get tenure/be successful when the primary caregiver. The overwhelming majority suggest I a) have children while writing my dissertation or b) after I get tenure.

Now, I could be easily in my late thirties by the time I get tenure, and I''m already likely to have major complications just from some preexisting factors. So I''d rather not go that route.


If we''re doing this in three- four years, I felt like we needed to take a financial reality check. He''ll be in medical school (on loans, etc) and I''ll be on a shoestring stiped that is adaquate for food, health insurance, and minimum housing.

He really has been the one to push for children (I want them but am more ambivalent) and was such a doll about not freaking out when I laid this on the table.

His suggestion: he is planning on working the next 2 ys anyway. If he gets a job consulting he could realistically stock away 10k a year. Including what we have, this would put us with about 40k in savings, plus whatever I manage to earn in summers, to use on the baby until he gets out of medical school/I get out of grad school about 1-2 ys later and we start making a real income (no, not a huge one--but income).

My health insurance is taken care of by my fellowship for the next five years; but we would have to pay for a baby''s and his is not covered under my plan. I''ll have some student loan debt but not a great deal; he''ll have a lot from med school. My mother offered to move to new york for the first two or three years to help out and babysit, so childcare is taken care of.


People who have kids, is this totally unrealistic? Am I worrying to much about this now? I thought that we should have at least a provisional plan and then if we decide not to do it, great--we have a nice nugget of savings.


Thanks! I am trying to get some basic info about this so we can plan it if we are, and relax a little if we aren''t.

 

[Selkie]

Hi rainbow,
What''s your field? I vaguely remember that it''s something Humanities related, is that right? This is a tough question. I''m not a parent, but I work in a university research lab and know a LOT of grad students/postdocs who are dealing with this question right now. It seems to be very popular to get pregant during the last year of grad school, either immediately post-defense or post-graduation. We joke that one guy in our lab went home after his defense and "celebrated," because his wife is due to give birth exactly nine months after his defense date

.

I also know many people who did it the other way around, waited until they got tenure, and then had kids...at least they have the added benefit of greater financial security and know they aren''t going to be moving anytime soon. I know many people who have given birth in their late 30''s with no trouble, although you say you have potential hereditary issues.

You seem to be looking at it mainly from a financial standpoint, but what about the issue of trying to write your dissertation while you are pregnant? That''s a LOT of stress, especially if he''s going to be busy with Med school at the time, and not necessarily always available to help you. However, from a financial standpoint, your plan sounds good, since saving money NEVER hurts regardless of whether you have kids, and when. You might want to give grad school a year or two before deciding absolutely what to do, you''ll have a better idea then of what will be involved. I take it under this plan, he delays med school for the two years he is a consultant?

 

[Selkie]

Date: 2/28/2006 9:07:21 PM
Author:rainbowtrout

He really has been the one to push for children (I want them but am more ambivalent) and was such a doll about not freaking out when I laid this on the table.

I also wanted to say that something about your wording here kind of worried me a little. It sounds like you are not very sure about having kids at all, but he does, so you are really trying hard to accommodate him?? Maybe I''m completely off track and reading too much into it, and please smack me down if that''s the case!

 

[MINE!!]

HMMM... good question. DH has no children, he is up for tenure next year. I have 2 children, financially...LOL>.... I had nothing starting out....LOL... I have hear opposite sides of this. But I will say this. Everyone finds a way.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Selike:

Yes, but he was already planning to delay it while working. Anyway, I'm def going to wait to worry about whether we emotionally/maturity wise WANT to do it until I've been in school for awhile--but if we want the option starting to plan sounded good.

Basically we both want children, he was just a lot more certain about it earlier than I was. I really want kids, but I don't want to give up my career to have them. I also don't want to be a terrible parent. I feel like men never have to face this decision/problem when they are younger, which may be why he was more certain than I was.

He's been very understaning, reassured me we could never have children if that was really what I wanted, etc. Basically right now I want to have the option in four years or so, not necessarily the reality.

My field is comparative literature, by the way. So a lot of at home time writing, less in the lab.

 

[MINE!!]

BTW.. what are you taking? So you are in graduate school.. started your dissertation? What field of study? Here is something that my DH told me~ Do not expect to get a job right out of the gate. He taught at U. of Toronto and Berkley before coming here on tenure track. he says that it a lot harder to get into than you would imagine. For example, his department just had a Russian Search , There were 237 applicants for the position, 3 were short listed, 1 got the job. About 2-4 jobs MAY come up a year. So time is a factor. Just something to consider in your plan, tenure may take longer than you think. HOWEVER, you are a woman, which is a big factor in hiring for Prof. right now. Dept. are in need of adding women, and they are doing so left and right... But that is a rant for another day.

I am not trying to be negative, but a Prof. position (as I am sure you know) is not a timeline thing.. it could take less time, it could take much more time.

 

[rainbowtrout]

As for writing the disseration pregnant--oi....never having been pregnant, it''s hard for me to say, really. But it will be easier than doing it when an assistant professor and trying to write books, articles, pubish like mad and teach while playing departmental politics.

Some of the schools I might realistically work at later are starting to offer better benefits for mothers...stopping the clock for tenure, maternity leave, etc. Penn offers one extra year to reach tenure for every child you are the primary caregiver for.

I can''t believe how awful academia used to be and sometimes still is about this. I am starting to see it as direct sex discrimination--if men choose to have children in grad school, they don''t have to deal with pregnancy, complications, etc. OR they aren''t the primary caregiver at all!

 

[pinkflamingo]

We had our son during grad school and are so glad we did. we only plan on having one, and we don''t have to worry about putting our careers on hold. due to the long summers during school (which we were fortunate that we didn''t have to work,) and flexible class schedules and very understanding and supportive profs, we were able to stay home with DS until he started going to pre-school at age 3.5. DH was the stay at home dad, while I worked.
We feel like one huge hurdle was accomplished, many of our friends have waited and are starting to feel the clock tick right as their careers are getting started. It is a really difficult decision. If mom is willing to help now, I would go for it.

 

[MrsFrk]

I have friends who planned to the hilt, and friends who got preggers accidentally.
Either way, it is tiring, exasperating, and unbelievably wonderful.
This is what I always tell my friends, I don''t have children, but I''ve been a nanny for a long time.
Babyhood and toddlerhood are EASY.
It''s when they begin school that you need to really concentrate.
Really, not matter what you do, it will be difficult. Parenthood just is.
Even with your mom helping out (which is fantastic!) you will want your husband to fully prepared to help, with the nighttime feedings, taking care of the munchkin on the weekends. If he''s in med school, that''s not terribly realistic. He is going to be exhausted and very busy with his studies, and you are going to have your hands full as well.

Let''s not forget, however, that no matter how many 40+ moms we see profiled on People magazine (many of them used donor eggs, and don''t admit it) statistically, a woman''s fertility PLUMMETS after age 37. So unless you are very comfortable with adoption or doing the IVF thing, age should be a real consideration. Good luck!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 2/28/2006 10:12:55 PM
Author: MINE!!
BTW.. what are you taking? So you are in graduate school.. started your dissertation? What field of study? Here is something that my DH told me~ Do not expect to get a job right out of the gate. He taught at U. of Toronto and Berkley before coming here on tenure track. he says that it a lot harder to get into than you would imagine. For example, his department just had a Russian Search , There were 237 applicants for the position, 3 were short listed, 1 got the job. About 2-4 jobs MAY come up a year. So time is a factor. Just something to consider in your plan, tenure may take longer than you think. HOWEVER, you are a woman, which is a big factor in hiring for Prof. right now. Dept. are in need of adding women, and they are doing so left and right... But that is a rant for another day.


I am not trying to be negative, but a Prof. position (as I am sure you know) is not a timeline thing.. it could take less time, it could take much more time.

Well, I''m acutally a senior in undergrad right now. I just wanted to make some money plans if we''re even thinking about this in the next few ys. Field: Arabic and French literature. Arabic is hot right now, so is francophonie. Yeah--getting a job out of the gate can be darn tough. We''ll see how life goes. NYU CompLit has one of the best job placement records I''ve seen, so I''ve got my fingers crosses.

The other big fat problem I''m not dealing with right now is us even being in the same place for grad/med school. Hopefully he will get a admission to a NYC med school. Hopefully he will then be able to find a residency/job where I can get a position. Some days I think it is hopeless and one of us will have to give up. But I know some people who have stuck it out all the way through. We''ve made it for eight ys this far...

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/28/2006 10:12:55 PM
Author: MINE!!
Do not expect to get a job right out of the gate. He taught at U. of Toronto and Berkley before coming here on tenure track. he says that it a lot harder to get into than you would imagine. For example, his department just had a Russian Search , There were 237 applicants for the position, 3 were short listed, 1 got the job. About 2-4 jobs MAY come up a year. So time is a factor. Just something to consider in your plan, tenure may take longer than you think.

DITTO. I know one comparative literature PHD & one classics PHD... both were completely funded throughout school. After extensive job searches & many false starts, 10 years later neither is currently working in academia. I don't think schools do a good job at preparing candidates for what lies ahead. But then again, if they did, they wouldn't have nearly as many students.

It's admirable that you and your FI are working so hard at planning your lives out & thinking things through & that you're willing to save & work for what you want. Some decisions are best made in the hearts of those involved. Yours will speak to you when its time.

ETA: coincidentally - both folks I mentioned went to NYU. (As did I - but for undergrad)

 

[rainbowtrout]

deco--how long ago was this? NYU has seriously ramped itself up acadmeically in the last eight years...but it's still a crapshoot.


ETA: I know I've a good chance of utterly not making it in academia. But I'm still going to try, darnit! I know it's diffcult and I know it can be utterly stupid, backbiting and pointless...

If I end up not working in it, fine--I'll probably make more money anyway. But I will have tried...

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/28/2006 11:03:27 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
deco--how long ago was this? NYU has seriously ramped itself up acadmeically in the last eight years...but it''s still a crapshoot.

I think they both finished around 1999-2000. But, believe me, they were heavily recruited and sold the "ramped up" bill of goods too. One taught freshmen at NYU for awhile before going into "corporate america" and one tried a couple different teaching positions, never getting tenure & seriously starting over - like ENTRY LEVEL jobs at 32. (That''s the comp lit guy too)

Now, both of these folks had the odds stacked against them because they did not want to leave New York. Also, one''s wife became a bestselling author and maybe wasn''t as motivated. But among all their friends and peers I heard the same story over & over again. "We wish we knew then what we know now." That it IS to some extent a crapshoot. And that it''s in the schools best interest to take a chance on you in the HOPES you''ll be "the one in a million" -- but not much to lose if you''re not.

 

[rainbowtrout]

I guess I'm confused because I can't figure out if you're talking about academia in general or NYU in particular. Because they didn't heavily recruit me or "sell" my that, I got this info from going around and asking my professors here to name the top five programs they could think of for my specialties.


And woah, not wanting to leave new york would put a serious damper on your chances, yes.

ETA: this doesn't really affect the point of my post, anyway. I was concerned about when to have children in the event I do get a tenure track job eventually. If I don't--I doubt he'll have huge amounts of trouble finding a decent job as a doctor.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/28/2006 11:22:35 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
I guess I''m confused because I can''t figure out if you''re talking about academia in general or NYU in particular.

I can only give specifics about the two cases I mentioned - both NYU - both special circumstances about not wanting to leave New York.

I''ve heard through them & their fellow academic peers at various different schools much talk and general dissatisfaction about not being prepared for how hard it would be to end up actually teaching for a living on the university level.

I don''t mean to be discouraging to you personally (both you & your fiance seem like you''re "on top of your games"). But since you are thinking so deeply about your possible future options - and want to be realistic about it - I wanted to pipe up with what (admittedly little) I know and/or have heard.

 

[firebirdgold]

I don''t have kids, but I''m chiming in anyway!

I don''t think age is as much as a concern as it used to be. The vast majority of my friends with children did not start having them until after about 37 yrs old. It''s like they all rushed to get a couple in before they hit 40.

Now I don''t know what kind of complications you might be facing, or what kind of future income you and flyfisher might be looking at, but I personally have been considering an alternative. Due to my own set of complications, it would be risky for me to be pregnant. So I''ve been thinking about having some eggs removed before I hit 35 and then do the surrogate mother thing later. I''ve heard that california has some really good laws and programs to make sure you get your child and everything works smoothly. (My mother''s very keen on anything that will get her a grandbaby and did some checking). It''s not at all cheap, but under certain circumstances in is a good option.
And let''s not forget adoption. Some friends just got the most adorable, sweetest, smartest, well behaved little girl I have ever laid eyes on from China.

OTOH, there is something to be said for having children earlier before life gets even more complicated than grad school. And your healthcare will cover prenatal, right?

 

[movie zombie]

i wasn''t going to chime in on this but here i am anyway. parenting is a full time job for one parent, at least, and that parent is usually the mother. working and having children can be done but there is a price for trying to be and have everything. i do not fault wanting to have a career and having your mother come to the area to provide childcare is great.....but if she''s spending more time with your child than you are, then she is in effect raising your child. i''m not judging, just pointing out the obvious.

i think it is great that you are planning ahead and going to save some $$$ so that either way...with or without a child....you have a nest egg. i also think that time frames get skewed once one is pregnant [not everyone has a perfect pregnancy] and once the child arrives [colic anyone?]. perhaps you''ll have a career in your field but maybe not move ahead as fast as you would like. this is not just an academic problem.

perhaps you can get a feel for what it might be like by volunteering to watch a friend''s kid while you''re also trying to do your school papers, reading, etc. take the kids for a weekend or several weekends [your friends might appreciate it!].

another possibility is that you might turn into one of those women that once the child is here, you could care less about a career and want to be a full time mother. i''ve seen it happen.

movie zombie

 

[rainbowtrout]

Well, my mom did a good job with me

Seriously, we''ll see what happens. i don''t put a ton of value on who raises a baby as long as it is done lovingly. three people can do it, one person can, an entire extended family can.

 

[movie zombie]

very very true....at one time extended families did just that. while parents were hard working on the farm or in the factory, the grandparents, aunts, etc. were involved with the raising of children. as ms hillary says, "it takes a village"....no, i''m not a big hillary fan but she is right on that score. it sounds like you''re not in a hurry...yet. for what its worth, i think you''re on the right track by thinking these things out and discussing them.



movie zombie

 

[MINE!!]

OH OH Rainbow.. I am not trying to discourage you either. In my husbands department, he sees some counselors and advisors alike that encourage people to take the professorial route unrealistically. Everyone thinks they have a good chance, many have little chance. BUT there are success stories and there are people that do it. I think it is awesome that you do not want to quit!! Totally awesome and I definitely think you should go for it.

I just pointed it cause you were talking about a timline.. dissertation... or tenure. Tenure could take a while.. that is all I was trying to say. It is a difficult field, but I have also heard that the study you are in is HOT right now as well. It will be even better when Colleges catch on and start adding positions to compensate the need.

I agree with MZ... motherhood is hard.. whether during dissertation, or work. (besides you will still be trying to get publications and such after you are on tenure track.)

 

[Blenheim]

rainbowtrout,

Do you have any idea how much of your professors'' advice is based upon the field that you''re going into, versus how much is based on the progression of masters -> dissertation -> postdoc (if wanted) -> assistant professor -> tenure track position?

I''m graduating from college in a couple months, and then working towards my PhD. I''m facing a lot of the same issues that you are, but just in a different field. The generation who is teaching me is almost all male (our department just hired its first woman since I''ve been here), and so I feel like they probably have a different perspective on what works timing-wise in regards to balancing career/education with pregnancy and mothering a child.

Tough, tough issues...

Blenheim

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 3/1/2006 5:55:29 PM
Author: MINE!!
OH OH Rainbow.. I am not trying to discourage you either. In my husbands department, he sees some counselors and advisors alike that encourage people to take the professorial route unrealistically. Everyone thinks they have a good chance, many have little chance. BUT there are success stories and there are people that do it. I think it is awesome that you do not want to quit!! Totally awesome and I definitely think you should go for it.


I just pointed it cause you were talking about a timline.. dissertation... or tenure. Tenure could take a while.. that is all I was trying to say. It is a difficult field, but I have also heard that the study you are in is HOT right now as well. It will be even better when Colleges catch on and start adding positions to compensate the need.


I agree with MZ... motherhood is hard.. whether during dissertation, or work. (besides you will still be trying to get publications and such after you are on tenure track.)

No, no...I do appreciate the career advice. It does happen that I have heard it before, but a LOT of kids have not. People are very rarely as realistic as they need to be

tenure can def take a while---I have decided we''ll take it as it comes and plan for having them in graduate school in case we decide to have them then. It''s just once you HAVE kids, they have to be #1, no matter what. So...I want to have my life arranged so we''ve got the best chance of making it work.

I am actually a lot more sanguine about the effort to make tenure than that to be a parent. Scares the crap out of me. Mom says that''s good, its what keeps you from killing them by accident.

 

[partgypsy]

rainbow trout, I wish I could give you better encouragment about it, but having a child can be an impediment to land a job out of graduate school and if in a tenure track position harder to achieve tenure. I''m only talking about women. Men who have wives who have children for some reason do not have the same pressure.

I was very conservative and waited till after my post-doc and into a research associate position (I don''t teach I just do research), but as soon as I informed my boss I was expecting the s*** hit the fan. Even though I was being supported by a near mill grant that had years left, I was placed in a terrible situation when I returned from maternity leave (my boss made it clear she no longer wanted me there) and ended up being forced to leave.

Not all supervisors or head of depts are to that extreme, but many do perceive having a child as a direct competition with your limited time and resources for the job, and as a "sign" you''re not as serious as someone willing to sacrifice everything for their career.

I am now in a position that is not tenure track. Sometimes I feel sad for the career I had to leave behind, but my current job is not nearly as stressful, pays more, and allows time for my family.

If you do decide to do it (and many women with demanding careers have done so!) try to carefully feel out your supervisor, head of department how friendly they are to that situation beforehand. If you can do it in an indirect way, such as by talking to other people serving in the department, etc, even better.

 

[sxn675]

Well, since I''m in a doctoral program and my husband is a surgery resident, I feel like we are where you guys plan to be in a few years! Let me tell you something, when he is in residency (especially any of the surgical fields) you will pretty much not see him. The 80-hour workweek rules are a joke. So, you can plan on pretty much being a single parent. My father is also a surgeon and my mom has said the same thing.

That being said, we "plan" on having kids when I''m done with quals. I worked for a few years between my masters and doing my PhD, so I am a bit older than you and don''t want to wait until tenure. Sure, that might be the "safe" thing to do job-wise, but you don''t always get pregnant when you want to either. You don''t typically even apply for tenure until six years after being hired on as an assistant professor. Depending on your field, that might not be for a year or two after you''re done with your PhD (if you need to do a post-doc). Also, there really isn''t such a thing as maternity leave in academia (some schools have it, but not really) so if you''re fully funded anyway, then dissertation time is a reasonably good time. As for the job market, that is VERY field-specific, so someone''s experience in chemistry is vastly different from history etc etc. Also, you both will need to be a bit flexible in terms of location. I am not at my "dream" school for my PhD, but my husband and I didn''t want to have a commuter marriage and he matched here so here I am. If you''re not willing to be flexible in your location, then you need to be flexible in what you do afterwards and vice versa.

For insurance, are you sure that you can''t carry your family on a student policy? We happen to be on my husband''s insurance, but I was able to have a family policy at the same rates as University employees.

Anyway, there are people who do things in all different ways and it all works out in the end, know what I mean? Good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[ladykemma]

here''s is a plan C or plan D

have you considered teaching? very rewarding, stable, portable employment with good retirement and job security. you can drop in and drop out as needed to accommodate the pregnancies and births. excellent maternity leave. you can be in the same home/city as your hubby in residency. you can be portable to go where his medical school and residency will be. and if you hate it you can do something else.

 

[JCJD]

Not a parent, but a grad student (bio), as well as a "university brat", as I like to call myself (Dad''s a prof). Speaking just from my university brat P.O.V., moving around as a kid didn''t adversely affect me. I was born almost a year before my dad defended, we moved across country for his first post-doc, moved halfway back for his second, and halfway back again for his first faculty position. All this by the time I was 4, and frankly, I don''t remember much of it. The move that really did suck was when we moved to our current location when I was in 8th grade. Uprooting in middle school? Horrible. However, I did meet my wonderful hubby in high school, so I can''t complain about that move anymore.
As a grad student who wants to have kids and a faculty/teaching/something job someday, we''re "planning" on starting a family sometime in the next 4 years or so, before DH turns 30. We want to be younger parents and to be honest, becoming a parent will be challenging at any stage in your life and career for varying reasons, so you might as well have them when you want them.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 3/3/2006 4:35:44 PM
Author: part gypsy
rainbow trout, I wish I could give you better encouragment about it, but having a child can be an impediment to land a job out of graduate school and if in a tenure track position harder to achieve tenure. I'm only talking about women. Men who have wives who have children for some reason do not have the same pressure.


I was very conservative and waited till after my post-doc and into a research associate position (I don't teach I just do research), but as soon as I informed my boss I was expecting the s*** hit the fan. Even though I was being supported by a near mill grant that had years left, I was placed in a terrible situation when I returned from maternity leave (my boss made it clear she no longer wanted me there) and ended up being forced to leave.


Not all supervisors or head of depts are to that extreme, but many do perceive having a child as a direct competition with your limited time and resources for the job, and as a 'sign' you're not as serious as someone willing to sacrifice everything for their career.


I am now in a position that is not tenure track. Sometimes I feel sad for the career I had to leave behind, but my current job is not nearly as stressful, pays more, and allows time for my family.


If you do decide to do it (and many women with demanding careers have done so!) try to carefully feel out your supervisor, head of department how friendly they are to that situation beforehand. If you can do it in an indirect way, such as by talking to other people serving in the department, etc, even better.

I've heard about this...it really depends on your school I think. I am sad to leave Penn bc they have just implemented a ton of very progressive policies for academia...if I get very lucky I can come back later for work. I am going to NYU on the 30th and I will try to 'feel out' the department in that regard.

Sorry that this had to happen to you...I am having a harder and harder time not seeing it as discrimination.