Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[AGBF]

Thank you, Ella! You know for what!

 

[AGBF]

Bill Chappell | NPR | August 28, 2020

"Alexei Navalny has been in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator since last week, but the Charité hospital in Berlin says the Russian opposition figure's condition is stable and his life is not in danger.

'While his condition remains serious, there is no immediate danger to his life,' the hospital said in a statement released Friday.

'There has been some improvement' in Navalny's condition, it added. But citing 'the severity of the patient's poisoning,' the hospital says it's still too soon to know what kind of long-term effects the poison could have on Navalny.

Navalny, 44, has been treated at Charité since Saturday after an emergency medical flight took him from Siberia, where he was apparently poisoned. He is in intensive care."

 

[AGBF]

A Few excerpts from an article published today.

For the Kremlin, Aleksei Navalny Is a Threat It Cannot Speak Of

"President Vladimir V. Putin has never publicly mentioned the opposition leader’s name in 20 years of speeches and interviews. Why? He is 'completely out of their control,' which is intolerable, one analyst says.

'They really hate Navalny,' Mr. Belousov said, because 'what he has done is completely out of their control. The Kremlin fights against any force that it cannot control, any opinion that it does not control. This is their guiding strategy.'
Another source of their anger, he said, was that the security services, despite years of hunting, could never find any compromising material on him.


The fight has continued even as their enemy lies in a coma in a German hospital. Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman with the nickname of 'Putin’s cook' and a target of Mr. Navalny’s anticorruption investigations, said last week that he had purchased some of Mr. Navalny’s debts and would force him to pay up if given the chance.


'Of course, if Comrade Navalny gives his soul to God, then personally I do not intend to persecute him in this world,' Mr. Prigozhin added.

Even unconscious, Mr. Navalny has managed to needle the Kremlin and its allies. His organization, the Anti-Corruption Foundation, released a video on Monday that featured footage of Mr. Navalny denouncing corrupt pro-Kremlin politicians during a recent trip to the Siberian city of Novosibirsk. He named 18 local legislators who he said had suspiciously intimate ties to a construction industry notorious for corruption."

For the Kremlin, Aleksei Navalny Is a Threat It Cannot Speak Of (Published 2020)

President Vladimir V. Putin has never publicly mentioned the opposition leader’s name in 20 years of speeches and interviews. Why? He is “completely out of their control,” which is intolerable, one analyst says.

www.nytimes.com

 

[dk168]

It was reported in the BBC News today that he was poisoned with Novichok!

DK

 

[AGBF]

It was reported in the BBC News today that he was poisoned with Novichok!

DK

There is information about it in post #24 of this thread, but now that the news that it is the exact agent that was used used on Mr. Navalny is out, more is also being written about the poison.

Here is a link to one article about it:

What Is Novichok, the Russian Nerve Agent Tied to Navalny Poisoning? (Published 2020)

For decades, scientists, spies and chemical weapons specialists have known about and feared the lethal substance.

www.nytimes.com

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Yep, @dk168 it's all over the news here.

My phone was down this afternoon and I didn't get home until now...
The German Chancellor seems to be pretty certain. German military confirmed it was - as suspected from the beginning- a neurotoxin from the Cholinesterase inhibitor family.

German Chancellor formally called in the Russian Ambassador.
She publicly condemned this and appears to have said that the poison seems to have been procured by Russian officials...

She was very very clear about the gravity of the situation.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Chancellor Merkel held a meeting with vice Chancellor Scholz, secretary of state Heiko Maas, interior secretary Seehofer, Justice Secretary Lambrecht, defense secretary Kramp-Karrenbauer as well as the head of the Federal Chancellery Office Braun to discuss details.

Soooo seems like they have proof and are not just letting the Russians off the hook easily...

 

[dk168]

Sorry, I had not read all the posts in the thread!

DK

 

[AGBF]

Angela Merkel made a speech announcing that Alexei Navalny was poisoned. I had not understood how the news was broken. This is very serious diplomatically.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Angela Merkel made a speech announcing that Alexei Navalny was poisoned. I had not understood how the news was broken. This is very serious diplomatically.

Yes, and she was very very clear how seriously she's taking it.
The beginning is crystal clear.

I mean in diplomatic circles this was heavy stuff.

Especially if you know her at all. She's extremely Science-minded at when in doubt will rather wait than act.

 

[AGBF]

Yep, @dk168 it's all over the news here.

My phone was down this afternoon and I didn't get home until now...
The German Chancellor seems to be pretty certain. German military confirmed it was - as suspected from the beginning- a neurotoxin from the Cholinesterase inhibitor family.

German Chancellor formally called in the Russian Ambassador.
She publicly condemned this and appears to have said that the poison seems to have been procured by Russian officials...

She was very very clear about the gravity of the situation.

I missed two of your posts while I was posting Chancellor Merkel's speech, @kipari. I see that, indeed, this is causing a huge diplomatic incident. (I can't keep up with this thread!)

Deb

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I missed two of your posts while I was posting Chancellor Merkel's speech, @kipari. I see that, indeed, this is causing a huge diplomatic incident. (I can't keep up with this thread!)

Deb

Thanks for finding the version with English subtitles!!!
I listened to it a few times because it is unusually sharp and clear - both for her and for general diplomatic procedures...

 

[AGBF]

Especially if you know her at all. She's extremely Science-minded at when in doubt will rather wait than act.

Well...she has a doctorate in physics. One pundit here in the States commented on the irony of our presidential candidate Joe Biden's wife always being referred to as "Dr. Biden" because she has a doctoral degree in education, while Chancellor Merkel, who has a doctorate in physics, is known simply as "Angela".

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Well...she has a doctorate in physics. One pundit here in the States commented on the irony of our presidential candidate Joe Biden's wife always being referred to as "Dr. Biden" because she has a doctoral degree in education, while Chancellor Merkel, who has a doctorate in physics, is known simply as "Angela".

I know. And it shows in her no nonsense- approach to mostly anything.
Her husband, a university professor in quantum physics is referred to as " The Chancellor's husband, Joachim Sauer" most of the time

 

[AGBF]

Some good news. Alexei Navalny has been brought out of his coma.

Sept. 7, 2020,

"BERLIN — The Russian opposition leader Aleksei A. Navalny is no longer in a medically induced coma and is responsive, doctors treating him at the Charité hospital in Berlin said on Monday. But they did not rule out lasting damage from what they called his 'severe poisoning' with what the German government has said was a military-grade nerve agent.

Mr. Navalny was flown to Germany on Aug. 22 for treatment of a suspected poisoning. Specialists from the German Army later determined the poison came from the Novichok family of substances developed by the Soviet Union and used at least once before on an opponent of the Kremlin.

Ties between Berlin and Moscow, already strained over Russia’s 2014 invasion of Crimea and suspected involvement in the slaying of a Chechen rebel commander in a Berlin park last year, have been further eroded by the poisoning of Mr. Navalny.

The German government has demanded an explanation from Russia, but the Kremlin does not seem inclined to offer one, saying it has not yet been shown proof that Mr. Navalny was poisoned.

Mr. Navalny has been brought out of the medically induced coma and is being weaned from a respirator, the hospital said in a statement. 'He is responsive to verbal stimuli' the statement said.'It remains too early to gauge the potential long-term effects of his severe poisoning.'"

 

[MaisOuiMadame]



Some good news. Alexei Navalny has been brought out of his coma.

Sept. 7, 2020,

"BERLIN — The Russian opposition leader Aleksei A. Navalny is no longer in a medically induced coma and is responsive, doctors treating him at the Charité hospital in Berlin said on Monday. But they did not rule out lasting damage from what they called his 'severe poisoning' with what the German government has said was a military-grade nerve agent.

Mr. Navalny was flown to Germany on Aug. 22 for treatment of a suspected poisoning. Specialists from the German Army later determined the poison came from the Novichok family of substances developed by the Soviet Union and used at least once before on an opponent of the Kremlin.

Ties between Berlin and Moscow, already strained over Russia’s 2014 invasion of Crimea and suspected involvement in the slaying of a Chechen rebel commander in a Berlin park last year, have been further eroded by the poisoning of Mr. Navalny.

The German government has demanded an explanation from Russia, but the Kremlin does not seem inclined to offer one, saying it has not yet been shown proof that Mr. Navalny was poisoned.

Mr. Navalny has been brought out of the medically induced coma and is being weaned from a respirator, the hospital said in a statement. 'He is responsive to verbal stimuli' the statement said.'It remains too early to gauge the potential long-term effects of his severe poisoning.'"

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

German authorities have called upon the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons( OPCW)
to collect Navalny's blood and urine samples from Berlin's Charité hospital today.

They are certain that Russian authorities were involved in the poisoning (because of the strong nerve agent used AND because of the tight surveillance from the FSB he was under).
They have also stated that he was definitely supposed to die - only the pilot's decision to land in Omsk saved his life.

 

[AGBF]

German authorities have called upon the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons( OPCW) to collect Navalny's blood and urine samples from Berlin's Charité hospital today.

They are certain that Russian authorities were involved in the poisoning (because of the strong nerve agent used AND because of the tight surveillance from the FSB he was under).
They have also stated that he was definitely supposed to die - only the pilot's decision to land in Omsk saved his life.

Thank you for this information, @kipari. I am very glad that Angela Merkel is taking this poisoning so seriously. Germany has taken over as leader of the free world since the United States renounced any claim to the title after President Obama left office.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Off topic but what are they going to do when Angela Merkel retires?

She's fabulous but do they have a plan for someone who can fill her shoes because she's been there forever and can they cope when she retires?

 

[Polabowla]

This whole thing is a scary nightmare , except it's real life

 

[Musia]

forever

This bothers me a lot, she used to be a good friend of Putin. He is also "forever" kind of a ruler. She is different, and Germany is not Russia, but why they have someone who is there for them "forever"?

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

This bothers me a lot, she used to be a good friend of Putin. He is also "forever" kind of a ruler. She is different, and Germany is not Russia, but why they have someone who is there for them "forever"?

@Musia , both points are not accurate.

She's never been a " friend " of Putin at all.
She was born into a Lutheran Pastor's family in West Germany, but her family went to East Germany when she was a baby. This was because her dad wanted to help people of faith under the communist regime in de GDR. Her family was part of the resistance there. Spied upon by the secret service (stasi).
Growing up she learned Russian in school.
In the beginning Putin wasn't the autocrat he revealed himself to be and all leaders of the free world had high hopes.
He was stationed in Germany as a young soldier. So everyone thought there must be a good chance for a positive relationship between these two.

His "friend" In Germany was ex Chancellor Gerhard Schröder who got a high paying job at the board of a Russian oil company. Years after his active political career.
Public outcry was huge.
Regarding the term "ruler" : please don't mix up different political systems.
Angela Merkel is Germany's chancellor. she is taking all decisions, but is heavily relying on her party and the parliament. We do have a multi party system where she has to seek coalitions with one or more political parties.
The protocolarian head of state in Germany is the president. ATM Frank Walter Steinmeier. He can only serve two terms max (4 y).
So when the Queen comes to visit, her state banquet counterpart is the president.
He is supposed to NOT interfere too much in every day politics and is supposed to be a unifying entity. He is not elected directly, but indirectly by parliament. It's obviously a highly prestigious position and his word in moral decisions etc counts a lot.

Your question " why they have someone who is there for them "forever"? " is easily answered:

"Forever "is 14 years in this case. The German people have given her party sufficient votes to form a government for 14 years in a row.
Her party and the party the have formed coalitions with have sufficient faith in her to grant her the position of Chancellor in said government every time.
The max. term number for a German Chancellor has not been limited in the German constitution.

And yes, @mellowyellowgirl , her succession has always been a topic of discussion. As I said: the German political system stresses parties a lot and the chancellor is supposed to be a person who is well versed in all topics. It's not an election on personality at all. People vote party. But since we have more than two, it's less divisive than in a two party system.
She will leave a huge gap, especially in the international context, where people have come to respect her. But the next German Chancellor will also be a tried and true person , approved by more or less both sides of the aisle.

 

[Musia]

@Musia , both points are not accurate.

She's never been a " friend " of Putin at all.
She was born into a Lutheran Pastor's family in West Germany, but her family went to East Germany when she was a baby. This was because her dad wanted to help people of faith under the communist regime in de GDR. Her family was part of the resistance there. Spied upon by the secret service (stasi).
Growing up she learned Russian in school.
In the beginning Putin wasn't the autocrat he revealed himself to be and all leaders of the free world had high hopes.
He was stationed in Germany as a young soldier. So everyone thought there must be a good chance for a positive relationship between these two.

His "friend" In Germany was ex Chancellor Gerhard Schröder who got a high paying job at the board of a Russian oil company. Years after his active political career.
Public outcry was huge.
Regarding the term "ruler" : please don't mix up different political systems.
Angela Merkel is Germany's chancellor. she is taking all decisions, but is heavily relying on her party and the parliament. We do have a multi party system where she has to seek coalitions with one or more political parties.
The protocolarian head of state in Germany is the president. ATM Frank Walter Steinmeier. He can only serve two terms max (4 y).
So when the Queen comes to visit, her state banquet counterpart is the president.
He is supposed to NOT interfere too much in every day politics and is supposed to be a unifying entity. He is not elected directly, but indirectly by parliament. It's obviously a highly prestigious position and his word in moral decisions etc counts a lot.

Your question " why they have someone who is there for them "forever"? " is easily answered:

"Forever "is 14 years in this case. The German people have given her party sufficient votes to form a government for 14 years in a row.
Her party and the party the have formed coalitions with have sufficient faith in her to grant her the position of Chancellor in said government every time.
The max. term number for a German Chancellor has not been limited in the German constitution.

And yes, @mellowyellowgirl , her succession has always been a topic of discussion. As I said: the German political system stresses parties a lot and the chancellor is supposed to be a person who is well versed in all topics. It's not an election on personality at all. People vote party. But since we have more than two, it's less divisive than in a two party system.
She will leave a huge gap, especially in the international context, where people have come to respect her. But the next German Chancellor will also be a tried and true person , approved by more or less both sides of the aisle.

Thank you, I appreciate the information you provided. In 2014 after Russia annexed Crimea, Ukrainians discussed what free world is going to do, how harsh the punishment is going to be. So there was some info on Putin and Merkel close friendship when they were younger. It is my as well as other people's understanding that once you "befriend" a KGB, you will never be able to unfriend it. Thank you again. I was just curious.

And of course, there is Russian-Ukrainian war since 2104 that is not being discussed by free world lieders IMO. Just a simple question, does Europe know about the war? Even Russians don't think that their country is deeply involved.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Of course EU citizens and the governments in Europe know about the illegal (against UN Charta & Helsinki Final Act) annexation of Crimea.
The UN voted "The Territorial integrity of Ukraine" , which was widely reported.
The EU doesn't recognize the status quo.

Since March 2014, the EU hasprogressively imposed measures against Russia.

• diplomatic measures (cancellation of Europe EU-Russia summit, moving of G7 summit from Sochi to Brussels, freezing of Russian application to OECD)
• asset freeze and travel restrictions
• restrictions on economic relations with Crimea and Sevastopol
• economic sanctions
• restrictions on economic cooperation

Every time the Russian officials reference Crimea as Russian territory EU will issue a statement that EU doesn't recognize this status and it's unlawful.

 

[AGBF]

Every time the Russian officials reference Crimea as Russian territory EU will issue a statement that EU doesn't recognize this status and it's unlawful.

I really do not know how The State Department here in the US handles notifications. I mean, I do not know if somewhere in the bowels of the State Department a quiet mechanism operates to generate a quiet memo about which the administration knows nothing. The US, too, holds an official position about the illegality of Russia's "annexation" of Crimea. The US Congress imposed sanctions on Russia for the "annexation". But sanctions were whittled down and the illegality of the the annexation is never publicly mentioned by the administration (nor is there any criticism of Putin).

 

[Musia]

Annexation of Crimea had happened "peacefully", but the war that is going on is long and bloody. The Russians also brought their Buk Missile System to the territory controlled by them and they crashed Malaysia airplane, and nothing serious had happened. IMO, EU can do nothing in order to punish Putin and Russia. I personally expected much more severe actions. But Russia is still there, and Putin is doing well inside of his country. They will deny their involvement this time too, of course, they didn't poison Navalny. I even don't know why they did it, Navalny wasn't tremendously popular in Russia, he didn't have a great support among even opposition which is weak and disorganized. FSB was following him, of course, but I don't think he was a great threat to Putin. Only opinion, I remember we are not allowed to discuss politics.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Annexation of Crimea had happened "peacefully", but the war that is going on is long and bloody. The Russians also brought their Buk Missile System to the territory controlled by them and they crashed Malaysia airplane, and nothing serious had happened. IMO, EU can do nothing in order to punish Putin and Russia. I personally expected much more severe actions. But Russia is still there, and Putin is doing well inside of his country. They will deny their involvement this time too, of course, they didn't poison Navalny. I even don't know why they did it, Navalny wasn't tremendously popular in Russia, he didn't have a great support among even opposition which is weak and disorganized. FSB was following him, of course, but I don't think he was a great threat to Putin. Only opinion, I remember we are not allowed to discuss politics.

Problem is that no one wants and can afford to start a full on war on Russia evidently. And even sanctions are always a fine line to thread. They are supposed to hurt the wrong - doer, not the local population.

 

[AGBF]

FSB was following him, of course, but I don't think he was a great threat to Putin. Only opinion, I remember we are not allowed to discuss politics.

I suspect the admin meant that we are not allowed to discuss US politics and other topics which might lead to volatile discussions (perhaps politics in the Middle East). I am sorry to say that no one here cares about Eastern European politics so that it is unlikely to cause strife.

 

[AGBF]

Problem is that no one wants and can afford to start a full on war on Russia evidently. And even sanctions are always a fine line to thread. They are supposed to hurt the wrong - doer, not the local population.

I believe that economic sanctions could be a very effective punishment to Russia if they were actually carried out by the United States as well as by the EU against both the Russian state and Russia oligarchs personally. The United States Congress at one point passed a bill ordering sanctions. For them to be effective, they would need the full support of both the executive branch and the upper house of the legislative branch (i.e. the Senate) neither of which has been very supportive thus far.

@kipari, your point about the population being harmed is taken. No one wants to starve poor Russians because Putin has a hankering for the glory days of the USSR, but that is not something we need worry about now. Russia is not Yemen and the Russian people are not starving behind a blockade.

 

[Ella]

Folks this is veering into political territory, please keep it about the event itself and not about the politics surrounding it.