Alexandrite/CC garnet advice

[Messiah Khan]

Hello everyone,

Over the last few months I have been researching anything and everything to do with engagement rings. I intend to ask my girlfriend to marry me in June (during our holiday to Canada). I have managed to find a few UK jewellers who will make my custom design ring (please see attached file for rough idea of what I''m considering), and think I will have it made in either white gold or Platinum depending on price. I''m having trouble deciding on the stone though.

Initially I had considered a bright apple green stone, such as either Pourmaline or Peridot. But after doing more research, I can''t get the idea of having an Alexandrite or Colour Change garnet out of my head, as the colour changing properties would add to the magic of the ring. The stone would only be tiny, probably no more than 4mm wide, possibly even smaller. The cut isn''t as important as the colour and lustre of the stone. My idea shows a heart cut stone, which would be the ideal, but I would also be quite happy settling with a circular, oval, pear or marquis stone.

However, when I asked about Alexandrite in my local jewellers, they suggested that a .25ct stone would probably be at least £5000 ($8000)!! Having seen a few on the internet for far far less, I can only assume two things; The local jewellers are marking the stone up by a silly amount. Or the ones on the internet are fake/simulated/poor quality. Which one is correct? Are most of the retailers in the sticky reputable? How much would I be looking at for a well cut, 2-4mm stone with good colour change (ideally the close to apple green the better, and I would prefer a more orange/brown change than purple if possible)?

Also how much would I be looking at getting a larger stone recut into a heart? Any comments or suggestions are greatly welcome.

 

[LD]

Hello and welcome!

If you're looking for an apple green colour then don't look at either Alexandrite or CC Garnets. Alexandrite is a bottle green or a paler green but certainly never an apple green. Actually most people don't like the look of an Alexandrite because typically they're not a gemstone that make you go "oh wow look at that". You tend to think "oh, ok, a dark emerald"! It's the colour change properties that, when people see it, makes them go weak at the knees! As you've found out to your cost, Alexandrite is incredibly expensive and the cost actually depends on the strength of colour change as well as the size/clarity. Have a look at www.multicolour.com for some choices. David (I think he's the owner) is always happy to answer questions and knows a lot about Alexandrite. You can get a yellow/brown colour change but they're not sought after so I wouldn't recommend them unless that colour way really appeals. The good thing about Alex is that it is a durable gemstone so good for an engagement ring.

If you want a more brighter gemstone perhaps look at Chrysoberyl - this is the same family as Alexandrite but doesn't change colour. However, the colour is more towards a lighter green/yellow.

The reason you've been quoted so much for an Alex is because it truly is much more difficult to source. Very few jewellers will ever have seen one, let alone stock them. The price you've been quoted is outrageous but reflects their lack of knowledge I'm afraid! Even valuers in the UK (and I suspect elsewhere in the world) haven't seen a huge amount of Alex!

In terms of CC Garnets, again, they're not considered an ideal everyday stone. Of course it's possible to wear a stone everyday but if you understand that it MAY become damaged and at some point you have to replace it then ok. Again, I've never seen a CC Garnet in an apple green. In fact, I've never seen a green one other than one very similar in colour change to Alexandrite (i.e. bottle green to purple).

 

[oddoneout]

I have no advice but I like the design.

 

[chrono]

I agree with LD that a colour change garnet and alexandrite are not apple green nor a pleasing green in daylight for the most part. Many tend to be darkish and/or grayish. In fact, often the colour of both ends (green and purple) tend to be darkish and not eye catching. The appeal of a colour changer to most who like those types of stones is for the colour changing effect itself. While we are on the topic of everyday wear rings, peridot is not a suitable candidate and tourmaline is also iffy. Jadeite does an excellent apple green but I’m not sure if you like something cabbed.

 

[RevolutionGems]

Alex is indeed hard to source but it is available. Check out this stone at AfricaGems.com.

You are absolutely right about the magic of alex. It is quite rare and would make a very unique ERing.

I completely agree that cc garnet is not suitable for an ering.

In this forum, you have found the single best source of information about gems. The knowledge here is unparalleled and we are ALWAYS happy to help someone find what they are looking for.

Welcome and good luck in your search!

 

[MAC-W]

Date: 1/28/2010 5:04:03 AM
Author:Messiah Khan
Hello everyone,

Over the last few months I have been researching anything and everything to do with engagement rings. I intend to ask my girlfriend to marry me in June (during our holiday to Canada). I have managed to find a few UK jewellers who will make my custom design ring (please see attached file for rough idea of what I'm considering), and think I will have it made in either white gold or Platinum depending on price. I'm having trouble deciding on the stone though.

Initially I had considered a bright apple green stone, such as either Pourmaline or Peridot. But after doing more research, I can't get the idea of having an Alexandrite or Colour Change garnet out of my head, as the colour changing properties would add to the magic of the ring. The stone would only be tiny, probably no more than 4mm wide, possibly even smaller. The cut isn't as important as the colour and lustre of the stone. My idea shows a heart cut stone, which would be the ideal, but I would also be quite happy settling with a circular, oval, pear or marquis stone.

However, when I asked about Alexandrite in my local jewellers, they suggested that a .25ct stone would probably be at least £5000 ($8000)!! Having seen a few on the internet for far far less, I can only assume two things; The local jewellers are marking the stone up by a silly amount. Or the ones on the internet are fake/simulated/poor quality. Which one is correct? Are most of the retailers in the sticky reputable? How much would I be looking at for a well cut, 2-4mm stone with good colour change (ideally the close to apple green the better, and I would prefer a more orange/brown change than purple if possible)?

Also how much would I be looking at getting a larger stone recut into a heart? Any comments or suggestions are greatly welcome.

Hi MK,
and welcome to pricescope. You are certainly in the right place to get expert help for finding your ideal stone. Some of the people on here have the most amazing knowledge.

I'm still just a beginner, but would like to say I really like your design. Also it looks as if the stone will be fairly low set and therefore fairly well protected, but still you have to think about how hard your future Fiancee is with her hands.

IF she is very gentle in the way she uses her hands throughout the day AND IF the design is as protective of the stone as it looks, then one possibility for apple green might be powellite. But it is a very very soft stone with a Mohs value of 3.5 (about the same as pearl - If you dont think she could wear a pearl ring every day without damaging it then powellite is also a bad plan, but I have to say from the 2 stones I've seen in real life they were a pure "granny smith" green). www.steveperrygems.com has a 7.2mm round powellite available for $770

Jade might be another option but again is quite a soft stone for normal daily wear.

Also tsavorite garnet can be had in an appley green (not the most desirable colur according to the market, but if its what you want you can pick it up relatively cheaply) Again garnet is not recommended as a 24/7 stone but with care could work for you.

As everybody else has said, alexandrite is much more an emerald green and is HUUUUUGELY expensive for a good stone.

When I first read through your post I must admit the first stone that sprang to mind was a colour change sapphire (cos they are hard enough to withstand normal day to day wear and tear) but I dont know if they come in a green version - normally they are blue changing to violet. There may be some treated sapphire that will do the green-violet thing, but I've never looked for that. However I know you can get (non-colour change) green sapphire and again if you are happy to accept heat treatment you can get some that are more towards the apple green colour but not a pure apple green.

Hope this helps
Mac


PS. To answer your other question, all of the vendors on the sticky have been used successfully at least once by a pricescope member, but some are more well known/used than others and therefore can be considered more reliable

 

[chrono]

MAC,
I disagree that jadeite is too soft for daily wear as I used to wear a jade bangle 24/7 with no problems. It might be soft on the MOH scale but it is incredibly tough and durable due to its internal intertwining structure. I have also not seen any colour change sapphire that comes in green though. I like your idea of an apple green tsavorite though and it should fair quite well in a very protected setting like the OP showed.

 

[Messiah Khan]

Thanks everyone. I know my ideal colour would be apple green, but I am also drawn to the idea of the colour change of Alaxandrite/Garnet etc. If I can find a suitable Alexandrite stone, then I may be very tempted. I had also considered a Demantoid, but I''m thinking that may be a little pointless as the horsetails wouldn''t be visible on such as small stone? I''m glad that Africagems is reputable, as I have seen some stones on there that I like and are within my price range. Im going to speak to the jeweller next week, so I will see what she has to say about the stone etc.

 

[gingersnap]

Date: 1/28/2010 10:29:08 AM
Author: Messiah Khan
Thanks everyone. I know my ideal colour would be apple green, but I am also drawn to the idea of the colour change of Alaxandrite/Garnet etc. If I can find a suitable Alexandrite stone, then I may be very tempted. I had also considered a Demantoid, but I''m thinking that may be a little pointless as the horsetails wouldn''t be visible on such as small stone? I''m glad that Africagems is reputable, as I have seen some stones on there that I like and are within my price range. Im going to speak to the jeweller next week, so I will see what she has to say about the stone etc.

From what I''ve seen it''s better to focus on one particular aspect of a stone. If you''re looking for a green colour, go for a green colour. If you''re looking for something that will sparkle and pop, make that the first priority. If you want a colour change, get the stone with the best looking colour change.

You will of course have secondary considerations (durability, shape, etc) but if you focus on finding a stone that does *one* thing reeeally well, it will stand out more than a stone that kind-of sort-of meets everything of what you''re looking for.

And of course! Search this forum to death

I learned a lot about what to look for/ask for/expect by feverishly searching this forum. I don''t recommend the feverish part

Also, I really like the ring design you''re looking at. I think it''s beautiful and delicate.

 

[ma re]

The quote you got shows that your jewellery is either uneducated, insane, or wants to get rich quickly. Multicolour.com is a great suggestion, they have stones like this:

#1

#2

#3

#4

that could meet your color requirements and meet the other ones after a potential recut. Also it might be important to point out that, some in the jewellery business advocate labeling only purple to green changers as alexandrites, while there''s a term "color change chrysoberyl", that covers other color changes (like the one you mentioned). I''m saying that because some vendors might have stones with that name, so that you know it''s something to check out. Everything else has pretty much been said, read as much as you can about gemstones, and most importantly, buy what you (and of course your future fiancee) like, not what is the norm of the trade just because "you''re suppose to".

Good luck!

 

[Messiah Khan]

Thanks for the suggestions. I know what you mean gingersnap, it's just I can't decide on what I want the most; a green stone or a colour changing stone, lol. Thanks for the comment about the ring. It is delicate that I'm trying to go with.

Thanks for those links ma re, this one is perfect link How much is it likely to cost to have it recut to a heart? And where would I look to have it recut? I am certainly not wanting to follow the norm, neither is my GF from the hints she has dropped. I am under strict orders that no diamonds are allowed (I think watching Blood Diamond caused that) and neither of us like yellow gold. If it wasn't so soft, I would love to use sterling silver as I feel there is something 'rustic' and natural about it.

 

[Arkteia]

Hi,

First of all, I love your design. Have you designed it yourself? Then you have quite a taste!

Second, you seem to like or lean towards many stones that I like or have in my collection. I have an alexandrite, a CC garnet, and a demantoid. A peridot pentant, too, but I am looking for a better peridot. I also have several synthetic alexandrites.

Re. alexandrite. I, too, would second LD and say, forget this idea! The quotes you got are looney-high, but it is hard to find a good color-changer and even more expensive and impractical to recut it into a heart shape.

At such a size, alex has to have a 100% color shift to be noticeable but for some reason I had even more problem finding small alexes with strong color change than larger-sized ones.

I have a CC garnet which I obtained from Gary Brown and while the play of colors is captivating, I am now having a problem designing a proper setting because a CC garnet has to be protected but not closed. Your stone is small so it would not stand much scratching and repolishing.

Can not give any new ideas re. green.

But agree with previous posts mentioning sapphire. If you choose a proper color, it could be breathtaking. The only problem is choosing the color. It can not be too dark but has to be quite saturated. You could possibly find good cheaper material or contact one or precision cutters and ask him to carve a small heart-shaped one for you.

I did not see many "hearts" in I-net websites. But I just had Gene Flanagan cut me a tiny ruby from remnants of his material. I think if you contact several of our famed cutters, one should have a small amount of green or blue stone left and could help you out. And it would fit your budget, because they are pretty reasonable.

Please, do NOT look for alexes on the ebay, this will be the worst investment of your money. Serious people would not sell high-quality alexandrites on ebay and start with 0.99 dollars. In my search for a demantoid I have contacted several e-bayers selling "Russian demantoids" and their explanations sounded flaky to me. They also did not want to provide decent certificates, and it is always a red flag!

Good Russian demantoids ARE expensive, and recutting one, again, is a very bad idea. Horsetails should not affect overall appearance of the stone, in fact, they are desirable, but demantoids are famous for their brilliance and heart-shaped cut may not be the best one to show their true potential. Also, they are softer than most garnets. (Heat-treated ones may be cheaper but they are still expensive).

They also come from Africa and some areas that I can not properly spell (Badakhshan? I think it is in Central Asia close to Afgani border). These ones usually don''t have horsetails, and they are much cheaper (usually less atractive, though). I think Edward Bristol usually carries some non-Russian demantoids, and some of them look pretty nice, at least in his pictures.

If you are so set on alexandrite, I''d recommend buying a synthetic one (actually, synthetic corundum may behave like alexandrite. I have four, and the lighter one shows a distinct color change and is very durable). They are cheap, very pretty, rather durable, you can cut them and later "upgrade" the stone to whatever your budget permits and your heart desires. If you buy them on ebay, look for "synthetic alexandrite" or "synthetic corundum".

I like Africagems but I wish Marc showed both colors of this alex and not only the green one.

 

[LD]

If you buy a gemstone from multicolour they can re-cut for you. I bought a very large heart cut Tanzanite from them a few years ago and the culet wasn't centered. I knew it would drive me mad and they organised a re-cut for me.

Don't forget, if you buy an Alex, have it recut into a heart (not the most desirable of cuts) you may find it nullifies the return policy - definitely something you need to check on.

 

[Arkteia]

Mac,

Never heard about Steve Perry, looked at his website, he has decent gems, have you ever bought anything from him? Some of his prices are too good to be true, and can a 0.66 ct demantoid be 5.1 mm in size?

 

[Gailey]

Welcome to Pricescope Messiah Khan

I want to just bring up a point about Alex or a CC garnet that has not been mentioned yet. In a heart cut stone of 4mm, I think either choice might look somewhat dark and dull. I know the Multicolour stones look light in the photos, so I might be wrong about those. I suspect for the most part they may look rather muddy. If my assumption is wrong, someone will jump in and correct me - I am sure.

I want to draw your attention to a couple of threads of mine. The first concerns a 4mm heart specifically, although not in either your stone of choice or your colour of choice. The reason I draw it to your attention is I want you to notice how much the stone sparkles at that size. Of course that might not be a factor for you or your girlfriend, but knowledge is power - right? The stone in question is a pink sapphire. Sapphires, as has been mentioned, also come as colour changers (probably not green), as well as a solid green. Here is the thread. Although Alexandrite also has a similar refractive index to sapphire, the small ones I have seen personally have been quite inky looking.

I also have a slightly larger malaya garnet heart from Multicolour. It''s a pretty little thing, but defies setting because of the extinction (darkness) it shows on one side. I do think Multicolour sells gems at very good value, their colour representation is good, but in my opinion based on the stones I have from MC, the cut is not so good. I think a heart shaped stone at 4mm is going to need a good cut in order for it to perform.

Lastly, yesterday I started a thread to show some exceptional macro photography of a very small Alex. Here is that thread. I shall alert the photographer who is a member here and ask him to come and post here about how that stone performs in everyday lighting conditions. Bear in mind that when you see photos of these colour changing stones, they have been photographed in optimum conditions.

Good luck with your search.

Oh, BTW, if it does turn out that you find a stone that needs a re-cut, then I would earnestly suggest that you talk to a man who does re-cuts and repairs to stones for a living (as opposed to cutting new stones from rough). His name is Anthony Lloyd-Rees. He is an Englishman who lives in British Columbia, Canada. I believe he has youtube videos of his work, but I don''t have a link to those at present. Selecting a stone for a re-cut is perhaps not as straightforward as one might think and I think his advice would be worthwhile.

 

[gingersnap]

Date: 1/28/2010 12:27:11 PM
Author: Messiah Khan
Thanks for the suggestions. I know what you mean gingersnap, it''s just I can''t decide on what I want the most; a green stone or a colour changing stone, lol. Thanks for the comment about the ring. It is delicate that I''m trying to go with.

Thanks for those links ma re, this one is perfect link How much is it likely to cost to have it recut to a heart? And where would I look to have it recut? I am certainly not wanting to follow the norm, neither is my GF from the hints she has dropped. I am under strict orders that no diamonds are allowed (I think watching Blood Diamond caused that) and neither of us like yellow gold. If it wasn''t so soft, I would love to use sterling silver as I feel there is something ''rustic'' and natural about it.

A couple more random thoughts, be sure to ignore them as this is just my opinion.

I''m not partial to heat cut stones. They seem like a trend, and I would avoid a trend for something as timeless as an engagement right. It does have the look of a claddagh ring, which is traditional, so if that''s fitting with her traditions, ignore that "trend" comment Also, round stone are much easier to find, and they can be cut for better light return.

Second random thought: If you are buying small stones and the budget allows, why not get 2 stones for the ring? On the top, put an apple green stone, 180 degrees on the other side of the ring, put a colour changer? Then if she wishes, she can turn it around 180 degrees to show the other stone. Wouldn''t work with many other ring designs... I dunno, just a thought.

 

[Gringa Perdida]

You may be able to get just such a beautiful alexandrite from the firm of Duarte & Bastos in Teófilo Otoni, Minas Gerais.

If you need any contact info, just get in touch with me. They have had a large quantity of very clean alexandrite for at least a year.

 

[Messiah Khan]

Thanks everyone, I''m getting some great information off this forum. Thanks for your comment crasru. Yes it is my design. I want to keep it fairly simple and understated, but still pretty. gingersnap I had actually considered having the design repeated three times around the ring, but I think it would be too expensive, and I don''t think it really worked aesthetically. Prefer just keeping a single stone, but making sure I get the stone right.

I now have thought about it more and think I might drop the idea of an Alex or CC garnet. I think my new top stone is a Demantoid. I''m also probably going to go for a circular stone rather than the heart cut. I think the ring would work just as good and it would open up a far bigger selection of stones. So depending on price I think the stone I want is a 3-4mm russian Demantoid, ideally with horsetails in a round cut. I know Demantoid is a soft stone, but hopefully with my ring design it will sit very low and will be protected pretty well. Thoughts?

On a related note; On one of the gemstore sites, there were colour shift and colour change demantoids. The change wasn''t as obvious as Alex, but still looked good nonetheless. Anyone got one or care to share information on these?

Oh, and where is the best place to get small sub .5ct russian Demantoids? I know Pala hold a lot, but I can''t get prices as I''m not in the trade.

 

[Stone Hunter]

I''m glad that you''ve decided what your focus is now. Color is the top consideration if I understand your last post.

Dematoid is very nice. It''s not as hard as Chyr. or Daimond or Sapph. though so be sure that the stone is well protected in the setting. And be prepared that in 10 or 15 years it will show some wear.

I''d suggest searching thru all of the PS vendors'' inventories and then if you see something close chat with them and see what else they have. Many vendors have more in stock than what they''ve posted. Also you may find that you prefer a certain cutting style over another. ACS cuts "chunky" faceted stones. My stone from Dan Stair isn''t chunky at all -- very fine facets. I like both looks but for this you might prefer one over the other.

HTH

 

[Arkteia]

Keep in mind that there are heated and unheated demantoids. There should be a significant difference in price. You may see a gorgeous stone that has been heated and is sold at the same price as unheated one. Get at least a verification in writing from the merchant. I would not advise you to buy from ebay. Most of small Russian demantoids I saw were pretty expensive, even in small sizes. Richard Wise had one in his website that looked very nice. I can look around and tell you more as I bought a larger one and am very happy with it.

Never trust a phrase "I think it is Russian".

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/30/2010 4:20:34 PM
Author: Messiah Khan
Thanks everyone, I'm getting some great information off this forum. Thanks for your comment crasru. Yes it is my design. I want to keep it fairly simple and understated, but still pretty. gingersnap I had actually considered having the design repeated three times around the ring, but I think it would be too expensive, and I don't think it really worked aesthetically. Prefer just keeping a single stone, but making sure I get the stone right.

I now have thought about it more and think I might drop the idea of an Alex or CC garnet. I think my new top stone is a Demantoid. I'm also probably going to go for a circular stone rather than the heart cut. I think the ring would work just as good and it would open up a far bigger selection of stones. So depending on price I think the stone I want is a 3-4mm russian Demantoid, ideally with horsetails in a round cut. I know Demantoid is a soft stone, but hopefully with my ring design it will sit very low and will be protected pretty well. Thoughts?

On a related note; On one of the gemstore sites, there were colour shift and colour change demantoids. The change wasn't as obvious as Alex, but still looked good nonetheless. Anyone got one or care to share information on these?

Oh, and where is the best place to get small sub .5ct russian Demantoids? I know Pala hold a lot, but I can't get prices as I'm not in the trade.

Sorry. It was an error. Why don't you find the stone you like at Pala's website and then ask your jeweller at what price he'd sell it to you.

 

[jleb]

Since your dealing with a small stone, i''d suggest a tsavorite garnet. It''s a bit more green than a demantoid and will be priced the same or slightly cheaper. The lighter tone will give you more sparkle and flash in the stone, plus they are easy to find. Very nice design btw..

 

[chrono]

Hello there, John. What''s that gorgeous red stone in your avatar?

 

[ma re]

Date: 2/1/2010 10:28:02 PM
Author: jleb

Hi again! It''s a test cut I did in flame fusion ruby as described in a blog article i did for the OWG site. It''s an Asscher cut I tried it out because the computer modeling said it wouldn''t look very well. Wow, was that ever wrong! Asscher''s look incredible as I''m sure lots of people here know, and that design just blew me away being so simple yet having so much sparkle and light.. I liked it so much it became my ''Avatar'' here. So that''s a really good design for me now and I''ll be using it a lot.

Sorry to continue this little thread jack Messiah Khan, but I just have to say that this red beauty in John''s avatar is really something! This cut would probably look beautiful in those garnety rubies, that are not so desirable due to a much darker than ideal tone, but that often come with good clarities and in decent sizes. Not to mention reddish spessartites... OK, thread jack over

 

[Messiah Khan]

Thanks for all the comments and replies ladies and gents. Yeah I think I have decided to settle on the colour as my main requirement. Ideally and apple green is what I''m after, but any natural green is also considered. Think I want to stay away from the bluer emerald green. Demantoid, Tsvorite, Tourmaline and Peridot are all being considered (in that order). But I am being drawn to the story and magic of the Demantoid.

Id love to get one custom cut, but i suspect that may be out of my pricerange. I''m hoping to get the whole ring to under £1200 (1915USD) and if I can get a stone for the right price, would ideally like it in Platinum (Although white gold is my second option).


Oh and don''t worry about the thread hijack. Everyone is welcome in this thread.