A good native cut for retaining color ?

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/15/2009 5:49:17 AM
Author: colormyworld
A jun jane, Isn''t it great that we can all share our differing opinions here. Heck in another thread I got to read about how all red spinels are just an overpriced knockoff for possibly irraaition treated rubelite tourmalines!!! Crazy inn''t it?

ha ha, cmw I read but didn''t post in that one - I can tell it riled you.

Don''t get me wrong, I am all for sharing our opinions, whatever they may be - and like to learn whatever I can here from others. However I don''t agree with people making sweeping criticisms of others'' tastes, I don''t see any educational benefit in that at all.

 

[PrecisionGem]

We really should clarify the term "native cut". I think what it really means is cut in the native land or area the stone was found. So a Montana sapphire cut in Montana, would be actually be a native cut stone. While in Tanzania I did see a local guy cutting on a modern American faceting machine. So his cutting was native cut as he was in Arusha cutting a tanzanite. It seems the term has a more common usage to mean a poorly cut stone, coming from a cutting house in the East.

Michael_E, the large flat table is the key. Higher crown facets, and a small table will allow a greater tilt before windowing. Often the "native" cuts have all the weight in the pavilion, and very flat crowns. This kills dispersion, increases tilt window and reduces the life of the stone, but for many pieces of rough can give a greater weight.

I talked a few years ago to a guy who ran a cutting house in China. He told me that each cutter had to do 30 stones per day, but they worked like an assembly line, one dopping, one shaping one cutting/polishing pavilions etc. The finial cut and polish are the same step, so they certainly are not polishing with a 100,000 grit polish or finer as are most "precision" cutters. Yield is not always higher than a cutter who may spend an hour or more analyzing the the stone to get the best out of it.

 

[chrono]

What a great thread with so many differing ideas / opinions. I have seen well cut and poorly cut native cutting. I have also seen well cut and poorly cut precision cuts. Obviously, I am no fan of any poorly cut stone, however, each has its own pros and cons which are suited for their own market niches. After all, someone must be buying those poorly cut stones otherwise no one will be cutting them. I do think that a poorly cut native stone most likely isn’t going to look attractive, nor retain that rich colour. For example, something with a huge window is going to be dead in the center with only nice colour at the edges. However, a mediocre native cut stone can be very pretty if the material is good to begin with. Obviously, the same goes for precision cutting. So much can only be improved if the material doesn’t have good colour.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM
Author: morecarats
My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for homely gems like citrine. You''ll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it''s a kind of diamond envy. It''s a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

I don''t really agree with this. I have quite a few diamond rings. I have rubies, sapphires, emerald and also coloured gemstones. I like diamonds for their fire and sparkle. I like my rubies and sapphires for their slightly sleepy appearance and I love my precision cut coloured gemstones simply because of their mix of brilliance and pretty colour. It''s not one or the other - I like them all. Geez, I like my pearls too.

I noticed that when I buy fine rubies and sapphires, I go for the well cut native cut stones (read: no windows, fine or top colour). For some reason (I need to figure out why), I have not gone to a precision cutter for fine gemstones but more for fun gemstones. When I buy fun coloured gemstones, I do not necessarily go for the top colour but I buy them to collect simply because they are pretty. It could be a lavender pink tourmaline or a purplish blue spinel - these aren''t the top colour for its species but I buy them if I like their combination of cut and colour.

 

[coati]

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM
Author: morecarats
My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for
homely gems like citrine. You'll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it's a kind of diamond envy. It's a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

The love for diamonds and the love for colored stones need not be mutually exclusive. There are plenty of us who have a fondness for both.

I recently bought a piece of Loliondo spess rough, which was custom faceted in an antique cushion cut that I chose, because I am working on a specific ring design. I got the depth of color and the cut I require for this particular piece. If I wanted and antique cushion cut diamond, I would’ve purchased one, but I wanted the spess.

I appreciate gemstones of all kinds (even those homely little citrines haha), but I’m not particularly fond of rules and absolutes. It’s limiting to lump those who enjoy certain cuts into a *diamond envy category. It’s as limiting as the pejorative term, “native cut.”

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/15/2009 12:13:41 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM

Author: morecarats

My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for

homely gems like citrine. You''ll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it''s a kind of diamond envy. It''s a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

The love for diamonds and the love for colored stones need not be mutually exclusive. There are plenty of us who have a fondness for both.


I recently bought a piece of Loliondo spess rough, which was custom faceted in an antique cushion cut that I chose, because I am working on a specific ring design. I got the depth of color and the cut I require for this particular piece. If I wanted and antique cushion cut diamond, I would’ve purchased one, but I wanted the spess.


I appreciate gemstones of all kinds (even those homely little citrines haha), but I’m not particularly fond of rules and absolutes. It’s limiting to lump those who enjoy certain cuts into a *diamond envy category. It’s as limiting as the pejorative term, “native cut.”

Yup, ditto what Coati said, this describes how I feel on the matter exactly..
(minus the funny formatting though)

 

[coati]

Date: 10/14/2009 11:37:04 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Remember these natives have been working with and cutting these gems since the Bronze Age. What do you think, they haven''t learned anything along the way? Who are you calling a primitive, baby?

 

[coati]

Date: 10/15/2009 12:35:51 PM
Author: arjunajane

Yup, ditto what Coati said, this describes how I feel on the matter exactly..

(minus the funny formatting though)

Nice formatting!

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM
Author: morecarats
My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for homely gems like citrine. You''ll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it''s a kind of diamond envy. It''s a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

I agree with you on this part and am, in fact, guilty as charged. Thankfully, my one asscher turned out to be an unusual mineral.

 

[chrono]

My one lone asscher, which is a pink spinel, was inspired by a pair of 2007 AGTA award winning pink asscher spinels.

 

[LD]

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM
Author: morecarats
My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for homely gems like citrine. You''ll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it''s a kind of diamond envy. It''s a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

I totally disagree.

I have NEVER gone to a precision cutter because I want a certain cut. I buy gemstones (whether they''re precision or poorly cut) for their beauty. The cut does not guarantee beauty for me. What''s the point of having a precision cut gemstone if the colour doesn''t scream at you?

I buy coloured diamonds, white/colourless diamonds, coloured gemstones, precision cut, poorly cut etc etc. I don''t discriminate! I buy something if it calls to me. I have some stunning precision cut gemstones from Gene that I bought for their beauty - not their cut - that''s an added bonus. On the other hand, I have some stunningly gorgeous poorly cut gemstones that it would be difficult to rival - even if they were precision cut. Which do I prefer? Neither. I just love stones that make me melt.

I''m pretty sure I''m not alone in how I buy gemstones as I''ve seen some wonderful poorly cut gemstones on this forum.

 

[Arcadian]

I just wanna know why citrines have to be homely? *scratches head*



-A

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/14/2009 8:28:22 PM
Author: morecarats
My impression from reading this forum is that many consumers go to precision cutters for colored gems because they want Asscher cuts, even for homely gems like citrine. You''ll rarely find Asschers in so-called native cuts. These consumers value brilliance over color. They want a stone that will sparkle. Basically it''s a kind of diamond envy. It''s a stage you have to go through, like measles or adolescence. Eventually you realize that colored gems are about color. Or you go back to diamonds.

Hmm, my asscher buying experience was the polar opposite to your opinion Morecarats.

I bought a citrine asscher because I fell in love with the cut. It was my first precision cut stone and still my favourite. Had the stone had a higher refractive index, then I may not have noticed the balance and the symmetry that initially drew me to it. While it is true that I like stones that sparkle and if I could have a pink diamond in substantial size then of course I may prefer that to a precision cut malaya garnet or tourmaline. But that''s not why I bought an asscher.

I grant you, we may be a fairly exclusive little club - we like it that way!

If you delve a little further you will find that we go ga-ga over Barry Bridgestock''s supernova''s as well.

 

[coati]

Date: 10/15/2009 2:28:00 PM
Author: Arcadian
I just wanna know why citrines have to be homely? *scratches head*




-A

They aren't homely to everyone--taste is subjective.

I'm hard pressed to find fault with the finest examples of any gem variety.

 

[Gailey]

Interesting thing a citrine. A couple of weeks ago I saw (IRL) an $80 fanta orange citrine that rivalled a good spessartite and a $20,000 spessartite that to all intents and purposes looked like a citrine. I wouldn''t have called either one of them "Homely"

 

[empress]

Maybe this more about complicated cuts versus simple cuts. ????

Most "native cuts" are simple - and when executed properly (angles and all) they absolutely maximize color. I don''t think I''ve ever seen a "native" "concave" cut stone.

When a stone is less saturated the complicated cuts start to make up for lack of color with brilliance...

But what do I know - I just covet stones....

 

[chrono]

Empress,
Believe it or not, I’ve seen and purchased a “native” cut concave peridot. I’m very sure it was cut in China due to the origin of the stone and the fact that Wink has told me on numerous occasions that cutters from China are teaching themselves the technique. The peridot is surprisingly well cut.

 

[morecarats]

Insofar as the term "native cut" is useful at all, I think it''s best reserved to refer to the traditional cutting methods used in the countries that have long traditions of the lapidary craft, such as Thailand, Sri Lanka and India. As several posters have pointed out, these methods can yield excellent results in the hands of a skilled craftsman. When used by less skilled people, or motivated purely by yield considerations, the results can be pretty awful.

What goes on in China these days is more fairly termed "manufacturing" rather than lapidary. The Chinese invest in factories and automation, and they cut gemstones on sophisticated faceting machines. I believe all the concave cuts from China are done on machines, and there are now some factories in Bangkok as well that have invested in the technology.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/16/2009 8:30:29 AM
Author: morecarats

What goes on in China these days is more fairly termed ''manufacturing'' rather than lapidary. The Chinese invest in factories and automation, and they cut gemstones on sophisticated faceting machines. I believe all the concave cuts from China are done on machines, and there are now some factories in Bangkok as well that have invested in the technology.

Exactly.
It''s also nice for me to purchase a hand-faceted stone that someone has put some thought, attention and effort into - not one off an "assembly line" like you describe.
Just like how I prefer to purchase my jewellery, in fact.

 

[morecarats]

Arjunajane, I''m with you in feeling uncomfortable with gems that look too manufactured. I know some people really love concave cuts, and they can look very impressive in larger stones, especially lighter colored ones. But you rarely see a fine sapphire or ruby in concave cut. I have seen some large concave cut fluorites that showed very interesting patterns through the table from the concave facets. Some people think they look a bit plastic, but they have been popular in the market.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/16/2009 9:15:59 AM
Author: morecarats
Arjunajane, I'm with you in feeling uncomfortable with gems that look too manufactured. I know some people really love concave cuts, and they can look very impressive in larger stones, especially lighter colored ones. But you rarely see a fine sapphire or ruby in concave cut. I have seen some large concave cut fluorites that showed very interesting patterns through the table from the concave facets. Some people think they look a bit plastic, but they have been popular in the market.

Hi MC, well I think precision concave faceting and the Chinese factories you referred to are 2 completely different animals to start with and not really comparable!
But I am in agreement with you re. concave faceting in general - it is not my personal cup of tea as I prefer traditional faceting. But each to their own.

Btw, Richard Homer is known for cutting valuable/larger stones such as blue and pink sapphires in his concave cuts.

Oh, and I think someone asked you in another thread - but usually when you are part of the trade, it is polite to designate this in your signature.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/16/2009 12:07:44 PM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/16/2009 9:15:59 AM
Author: morecarats
Arjunajane, I''m with you in feeling uncomfortable with gems that look too manufactured. I know some people really love concave cuts, and they can look very impressive in larger stones, especially lighter colored ones. But you rarely see a fine sapphire or ruby in concave cut. I have seen some large concave cut fluorites that showed very interesting patterns through the table from the concave facets. Some people think they look a bit plastic, but they have been popular in the market.

Hi MC, well I think precision concave faceting and the Chinese factories you referred to are 2 completely different animals to start with and not really comparable!
But I am in agreement with you re. concave faceting in general - it is not my personal cup of tea as I prefer traditional faceting. But each to their own.

Btw, Richard Homer is known for cutting valuable/larger stones such as blue and pink sapphires in his concave cuts.

Oh, and I think someone asked you in another thread - but usually when you are part of the trade, it is polite to designate this in your signature.

Yes AJ, that would have been me. And it''s not only polite, it''s policy. Now I will state up front (because that''s the kind of girl I am) that I won''t report Morecarats for this infraction, but you can bet your bottom dollar someone will before long.

And that would be a shame. I spent some time reading through Morecarat''s posts since he/she joined us and for the most part they are very informative, so it will be a shame to lose him/her.

 

[arjunajane]

That''s what I thought too Gailey..I was just being too lazy to go check the rules

Well, I guess it''s up to more carats then!

 

[morecarats]

No one has to worry about losing my very modest contributions to this forum. I have checked and apparently I am fully compliant with all the regulations, except for perhaps the odd grammatical lapse. I do appreciate the concern.

 

[Gailey]

Nicely sidestepped Morecarats.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/17/2009 12:25:44 AM
Author: morecarats
No one has to worry about losing my very modest contributions to this forum. I have checked and apparently I am fully compliant with all the regulations, except for perhaps the odd grammatical lapse. I do appreciate the concern.

Not concern. Like I mentioned earlier, I personally just like to be aware of people''s motivations when they are posting as a part of the trade, and not leading others to believe they are a consumer.

Fair enough, you are not breaking any forum rules.
Care to comment on the other side of it then? (ie. politeness?).
I''m just intrigued, like Gailey, why you would actively choose not to disclose is all.

 

[Gailey]

You know far be it from me to quote what's allowed and what's not and maybe rules for trade members have been changed (as opposed to what is stated in the Forum Policy Guide in respect to trade members).

And give Morecarats his due (I'm going to refer to Morecarats as "He" until I hear otherwise - no disrespect intended), he's not pushing his products at us, heck he's not even standing behind them.

Like I said earlier, I read through pretty much all 64 posts this afternoon (I know, I need to get out more), and for the most part I felt that they were informative, helpful and above all educational. No disrespect to my fellow consumer posting partners intended either, but we do post an awful lot of "gee that's great, I love it" type of comments and it is always nice when people with a more indepth view of gemology choose to share their knowledge with us. But I echo what AJ says, you have to question the motivation when Morecarats is happy to let us know by the content of his posts that he is in the trade, as his comment about green zircons in Blithesome71's recent green zircon thread shows: "I had a few green ones in the last year and sold them immediately". But is not happy to let us know who he is, even if he is, as he says - 'fully compliant with all the regulations".

It's a shame because now I have to question the accuracy and validity of everything he says.

Even more of a shame because Katebar is looking for a blue zircon and it would appear from Morecarats that he has one or two in stock: "I'm a regular buyer of zircon and out of the 450 pieces in my current stock ..."

 

[morecarats]

Gailey, I can''t begin to say how flattered I am that you read through all those old posts of mine. Thank you for all the kinds things you said.

As hard as it may be to believe, there are people who just love colored gemstones and love to discuss them with like-minded people. Sure, I have to earn a living like everyone else. I''m lucky to be working at something that genuinely interests me. But there are already enough people here trying to sell things. You don''t need more of them.

Anyone want to discuss colored stones? That''s what I''m here for ...

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/17/2009 1:58:54 AM
Author: morecarats
As hard as it may be to believe, there are people who just love colored gemstones and love to discuss them with like-minded people. Sure, I have to earn a living like everyone else. I''m lucky to be working at something that genuinely interests me. But there are already enough people here trying to sell things. You don''t need more of them.


Anyone want to discuss colored stones? That''s what I''m here for ...

Sure carats, that''s what we are all here to do and *why* we are all find our way here in the first place.

But I do have to echo Gailey''s post (well, and my own, ha ha), in that if you are in the trade and making definitive statements to posters, it is hard to know whether you are coming from an educational/fun POV, or you have an ulterior motive.

For example, the discussion you and I had in the thread about native vs precision cut stones. I''m sorry, but I can''t help but question that your criticism of precision cut gems (US style such as is popular on this board), is because you apparently own or run a jewellery store in Asia, correct? Where these precision cutting styles are not embraced/practiced..?

Anyway, I''m feeling like I''m flogging a dead horse and will leave it there - however I hope my example above goes some way to illustrating why members such as Gailey and I have such "concerns". Of course, its your prerogative to ignore us!

Apart from that, I hope you continue to enjoy posting here and helping consumers with your gem knowledge, I sincerely do.

 

[morecarats]

I''ve already expressed my opinions on the interesting brilliance vs. color debate. There are are some gemstone cuts that I don''t find appealing, but I am happy to sell them if people want to buy them. Concave cuts are currently a good seller with us, but I would not likely buy one myself. My opinions are not based on commercial considerations, though I''m always happier if customers buy something which is right and beautiful. But fads are part of the fashion world.

I don''t own or run a jewelry store.

Can we return to discussing colored stones?