3,76ct Sapphire, re-cut, keep as is or sell?

[natascha]

First off I wanted to apologies, I made another thread when I first started looking and then never responded. My mother ended up needing spinal surgery so all thoughts of stones went through the window and I completely forgot about my other post.

Last weekend I was visiting my mother again and happened upon a sapphire that called out to me. It is a cushion cut, 3,76ct but with a deep native cut. The measurements are 8,1 x 7,7 x 6,08mm. No eye visible inclusions and pretty clean under the loupe as well. Taking pictures that show they colour accurately has proven impossible with my very limited skills, have tried two smart phones and most of the time the pictures come out more blue or violet than reality. It's blue in natural light (somewhat less saturated than in the photos) and turns varying shades of periwinkle, dark periwinkle and violet in other lighting. Importantly it never blacks out at all

Now to the big question, is a recut a good idea. To be honest it's not atrocious looking in cut terms but could be improved significantly. As mentioned before its overly deep with too long facets on the bottom making it have what I would best describe as a bowtie that is half window. As in it is a window and the colour of my finger seeps through making it look "muddy" in the middle and if I put it on top of text I can see the text but its deep enough that from an arms length distance the window isn't noticeable. Additionally the culet is off center and the crown is quite flat.

I would be fine with loosing ct weight (hopefully keep it above 3ct so losing 0,76ct is fine) and a bit of face up size

What do people think of its chances? Or should I just sell it and try and buy something else?

Also in peoples experience does the colour lighten or darken after a recut like this? Would prefer a something in the light/ medium tone

Photos in next post

 

[natascha]

In the mixed lighting of my office it looks more like these, or a bit more violet tones. Saturation looks like what the middle of my stone does in the office light http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yogo-Sapphire-1-50tcw-eternity-band-platinum-size-10-1-2-/321743385256?hash=item4ae96672a8.&rmvSB=true

 

[katharath]

Hope your mom is much improved!!!

Ok, so just trying to clarify a bit - the first pic and the last pic show your gem, but the other pics and the link are just to show the color of your gem, correct?

I'm finding it really hard to tell much from your pics. I would need to see really up close photos. Don't worry so much about the color, just try to get as close as you can so that we can actually see the faceting. Some side pics and even upside down might be nice to, to really evaluate it.

The problem with sapphires is that they can be tricky. They can "hold" a lot of their color in the culet. So a recut could potentially change the color of the gem by rather a lot. If it looks ok to you on the hand, then you might be better off avoiding a recut and trying to mask the window with an appropriate setting.

You could always try sending it to Jerry at gemart for an evaluation and possibly a recut, if he recommends it. He does a great job and his pricing is not expensive, he recut a spinel for me and it turned out really beautifully, with very little weight loss (many PSers have had great success with him). It was about $85 for my recut, which was basically the lowest end pricing at the time (this was maybe two years ago). This is my best advice to you right now. If you find that you can't get better pics (and it really is hard, it takes some practice, so don't feel bad if it's difficult at first), then just send it to him and he will tell you what he thinks.

Or if you are able to get some better pics we can try to maybe offer more helpful advice! Btw I love the color, it's a preferred color of mine.

 

[natascha]

Hope your mom is much improved!!!

Ok, so just trying to clarify a bit - the first pic and the last pic show your gem, but the other pics and the link are just to show the color of your gem, correct?

I'm finding it really hard to tell much from your pics. I would need to see really up close photos. Don't worry so much about the color, just try to get as close as you can so that we can actually see the faceting. Some side pics and even upside down might be nice to, to really evaluate it.

The problem with sapphires is that they can be tricky. They can "hold" a lot of their color in the culet. So a recut could potentially change the color of the gem by rather a lot. If it looks ok to you on the hand, then you might be better off avoiding a recut and trying to mask the window with an appropriate setting.

You could always try sending it to Jerry at gemart for an evaluation and possibly a recut, if he recommends it. He does a great job and his pricing is not expensive, he recut a spinel for me and it turned out really beautifully, with very little weight loss (many PSers have had great success with him). It was about $85 for my recut, which was basically the lowest end pricing at the time (this was maybe two years ago). This is my best advice to you right now. If you find that you can't get better pics (and it really is hard, it takes some practice, so don't feel bad if it's difficult at first), then just send it to him and he will tell you what he thinks.

Or if you are able to get some better pics we can try to maybe offer more helpful advice! Btw I love the color, it's a preferred color of mine.

Thank you, my mother has improved a lot in the last half year but still has a bit to go. The surgery was a success

All the pics are of my stone, it shifts colour nearly all the time. The two on paper were to show how wonky and deep it is. I will try and get some close ups

When you say hold their colour in the culet do you mean colour zoning? From what I can tell it seems that the colour is evenly distributed through the body of the stone (no matter how I turn it when looking sideways or from the bottom all the material seems the same colour). To be honest if a recut would make it a little bit lighter say light-medium instead of the current medium tone I would love that

 

[chrono]

I hope your mother is feeling better? Is the surgery done?

Typically, if a stone can be cut to look better, it would because the vendor will be able to sell it more easily. The colour looks good and the cut not too shabby at arms' length. Without seeing better pictures, my gut feel is that you are better off selling it as is. Given that the crown is flat as you described, it is likely to lose face up size in order to build up a proper crown. This type of cut will also typically lose more carat weight than minor window closing tweaks. Realignment or centering of the culet will also mean a good bit of weight loss and could affect the colour centre of a sapphire.

In general, re-cutting could end up going 2 ways: better brilliance or worse colour. Don't forget to take cutting fees, shipping both ways, and the loss in $/ct into the cost of the stone and the selling price. That said, no harm in reaching out to Jerry Newman. He actually dissuaded me from recutting many stones as it wasn't worth it (not much improvement, too much weight loss, would cost too much money to re-cut due to having to tweak too many facets). Of the half dozen stones I asked him for advice on, only one was tweaked.

 

[natascha]

Can you see the faceting in this?

It shows the thick band in the middle where the white from the background seeps through and makes it look "muddy" to me. Also shows how offcenter the culet is

Photo makes the stone look more saturated than it is

 

[chrono]

Does it look less obvious in an empty setting? It's too blurry to make much out of the picture.

 

[natascha]

Does it look less obvious in an empty setting? It's too blurry to make much out of the picture.

I don't have an empty setting Im afraid, will try going to a jewelers to test it this weekend

I hope your mother is feeling better? Is the surgery done?

Typically, if a stone can be cut to look better, it would because the vendor will be able to sell it more easily. The colour looks good and the cut not too shabby at arms' length. Without seeing better pictures, my gut feel is that you are better off selling it as is. Given that the crown is flat as you described, it is likely to lose face up size in order to build up a proper crown. This type of cut will also typically lose more carat weight than minor window closing tweaks. Realignment or centering of the culet will also mean a good bit of weight loss and could affect the colour centre of a sapphire.

In general, re-cutting could end up going 2 ways: better brilliance or worse colour. Don't forget to take cutting fees, shipping both ways, and the loss in $/ct into the cost of the stone and the selling price. That said, no harm in reaching out to Jerry Newman. He actually dissuaded me from recutting many stones as it wasn't worth it (not much improvement, too much weight loss, would cost too much money to re-cut due to having to tweak too many facets). Of the half dozen stones I asked him for advice on, only one was tweaked.

The surgery was done 6 months ago but the recuperation period is up to a year so it's a slow process. Thankfully she is doing well and now seeing a physio to try and improve as much as possible

One thing I forgot to mention is that I got it at an auction in Sweden, apparently the previous owner had collected sapphires several years ago and was now selling. The market in Sweden is pretty much null and people barely know anything about cut (not even diamond cut) so I doubt anyone would have thought of re-cutting. Also people usually only buy completed jewelry

I'll reach out to Jerry Newman and see what he says, I'm guessing he would need to see the stone first though (currently in London). I guess it becomes a question of how much I would lose by recutting but also how much I could get if selling. To be honest would probably need to go through someone instead of just louptroup, etc. since my photo skills are so dreadfull ha ha

 

[lovedogs]

I think the color is beautiful (IMHO), and agree the cut doesn't look bad. I can see the off center cutlet from the close up pic, but I feel like it doesn't detract from the beauty of the stone.

Another recommendation in terms of cutting is Dan Stair (customgemstones.com). I've heard good things about him from stone vendors, and he is currently re-cutting a stone for me now that had a fairly large window (as disclosed by the stone vendor himself). His prices are extremely reasonable--he quoted me $35/hr, and said that re-cutting just so the window would be gone would take about 1 hour, recutting that plus evening out the stone would take about 2 hrs, and a "full recut" would take about 3. So to me his prices were extremely fair, and he told me there is no cost of sending him the stone to look at (other than the $ of mailing it). So it's fairly low risk to have him take a look, and from my experience he's honest in what needs to be fixed vs. left alone.

But again, my overall impression is to leave it as is because it's beautiful!

 

[katharath]

Hope your mom is much improved!!!

Ok, so just trying to clarify a bit - the first pic and the last pic show your gem, but the other pics and the link are just to show the color of your gem, correct?

I'm finding it really hard to tell much from your pics. I would need to see really up close photos. Don't worry so much about the color, just try to get as close as you can so that we can actually see the faceting. Some side pics and even upside down might be nice to, to really evaluate it.

The problem with sapphires is that they can be tricky. They can "hold" a lot of their color in the culet. So a recut could potentially change the color of the gem by rather a lot. If it looks ok to you on the hand, then you might be better off avoiding a recut and trying to mask the window with an appropriate setting.

You could always try sending it to Jerry at gemart for an evaluation and possibly a recut, if he recommends it. He does a great job and his pricing is not expensive, he recut a spinel for me and it turned out really beautifully, with very little weight loss (many PSers have had great success with him). It was about $85 for my recut, which was basically the lowest end pricing at the time (this was maybe two years ago). This is my best advice to you right now. If you find that you can't get better pics (and it really is hard, it takes some practice, so don't feel bad if it's difficult at first), then just send it to him and he will tell you what he thinks.

Or if you are able to get some better pics we can try to maybe offer more helpful advice! Btw I love the color, it's a preferred color of mine.

Thank you, my mother has improved a lot in the last half year but still has a bit to go. The surgery was a success

All the pics are of my stone, it shifts colour nearly all the time. The two on paper were to show how wonky and deep it is. I will try and get some close ups

When you say hold their colour in the culet do you mean colour zoning? From what I can tell it seems that the colour is evenly distributed through the body of the stone (no matter how I turn it when looking sideways or from the bottom all the material seems the same colour). To be honest if a recut would make it a little bit lighter say light-medium instead of the current medium tone I would love that

Ahhhh, I see what you mean about the pics - I was thrown off by the shape of the gem in pics two and three in your first post, sorry! I needed the clarification that it was a different view, I just couldn't tell bc it looks tiny, lol - apologies

Your latest pic is a lot better. I see why you liked it to begin with. If you really like the gem, then I would probably follow Chrono's advice and either sell it or keep it as is (or rather, not recut it); Chrono's post was good and gave more specific advice than mine regarding recuts, so definitely keep that in mind. Contacting a gem cutter is a good idea if you're very conflicted, bc they can give you the most informed opinion about what's possible and what isn't. Someone like Jerry should be able to answer your questions - I don't know exactly how a recut would affect the color, except to say that it potentially *could*.

When I say that sapphires hold color in the culet, I'm not referring to color zoning specifically, no. This is my understanding - the color that a sapphire appears to be when viewed face up has a lot to do with how the culet or bottom of the gem is cut. What I've heard is that recutting a sapphire, especially the culet, can cause a loss of color/intensity of color. That's supposedly the reason that you'll see so many bottom heavy sapphires; it's needed to produce the richer color. Please don't take this as completely correct, I may be wording things wrongly or not as accurately as possible; I do not cut gems and I've never had a sapphire recut. I've owned a lot though . I'm just repeating what I've previously read as best as I can remember.

 

[minousbijoux]

Really can't tell much from the photos. But from the dimensions, the depth is about 78% and the crown is flat crown. So you could correct the pavilion facets for best light performance and refraction, but you'd still have a flat crown. If you were to have a cutter try to correct the crown as well, you'd end up well below the 3 ct mark. In any case, you will not end up with a perfectly cut stone, but after speaking with Jerry or another lapidary and deciding to cut it, you could end up with an improved stone with a more centered pavilion and better light reflection. But you would likely lose value as well, unless it would substantially change the look of the stone - in a positive way.

 

[aussiejamie]

Hi guys,
Katharath is right about the importance of having the best color situated in the culet! The color in the culet is 'thrown' around the gem by the light rays entering the stone and the culet area is where most light needs to pass through on its way back to our eye. Usually when a sapphire is cut deep it is because the saturation or color of the gem is on the lightish side (secondly they are cut deep to keep maximum weight). Cutting it deep means that the light rays travel further through the gem material which makes the light pickup more color from the gem. The opposite is true for darker highly saturated gems. Put the lightest colored area in the culet for these stones and cut a bit shallower.
In regards to what to do with the gem, It comes down to whether you like the stone. Listen to your personal intuition as you are the one that will be looking at the stone everyday.

Hope your mum feels better soon!!

AJ

 

[katharath]

Aussiejamie - thanks so much for clarifying!! Great info - I was hoping someone would chime in about that (I was hoping to learn more!)

Also Minous - a very helpful post too. I feel like I've learned how to evaluate gems pretty well, but I still have a lot to learn about recutting issues. Love seeing helpful info like this.

 

[chrono]

Before I send any stone of to Jerry, I first inquire and attach many pictures of the stone. Macro pictures of the side view and front view to help him evaluate it better. I also provide the length, width and depth dimensions. Write what you would like or hope the stone can be improved on. He will give you his best educated guess and from there, you can decide whether to send the stone to him for a more in-depth evaluation or keep it as is. This will reduce the risk of the stone getting lost in-transit and unnecessary shipping fees should the stone not be a good candidate for a recut.

 

[natascha]

New attempt at close ups

The front ones show the muddy area in the middle where it windows and shoes my finger tone coming through. Also attached a photo where I rested it on its side to show that its not actually the material making the close ups look like the stone has pale patches. The side ways shots were impossible to focus but hopefully they at least show the shape of it. Not sure why some pitchers are coming out very grey

 

[natascha]

side

 

[minousbijoux]

I would absolutely take a pass on that sapphire and doubt a recut will do anything to improve it.

 

[mastercutgems]

Howdy All LOL

Just going off the pictures; it has the depth and if the color is decent and the inclusions are a minimum; you could be amazed at what a simple tweak in the pavilion/culet area can do. Price would be the biggest consideration and if the price is right on the gem as it is; I am sure many cutters would be game for the task !!!

Color is unusual but I have seen and cut much worse...

I try not to chime in on things on the forum such as this but the more I looked at it; the more I saw potential???

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds, csmg
ASG # 96CGE42

 

[minousbijoux]

Howdy All LOL

Just going off the pictures; it has the depth and if the color is decent and the inclusions are a minimum; you could be amazed at what a simple tweak in the pavilion/culet area can do. Price would be the biggest consideration and if the price is right on the gem as it is; I am sure many cutters would be game for the task !!!

Color is unusual but I have seen and cut much worse...

I try not to chime in on things on the forum such as this but the more I looked at it; the more I saw potential???

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds, csmg
ASG # 96CGE42

Hi Dana: I hope you are doing well! FYI - as a member of the Trade, you are really not supposed to comment on anyone else's sapphire even if, as in this case, it is meant as encouragement. While you are well intended, you could understand if a seller might not be so pleased with your comments, and thus problems could ensue.

 

[chrono]

Minou,
Since the sapphire belongs to a consumer and isn't a stone the consumer is considering to purchase, I thought it should be safe for Trade Members to voice their opinion? Even in RT, as long as the poster does not name the who the vendor is, Trade members have always commented on the diamond without repercussion.

 

[minousbijoux]

Chrono: while you could be right, I was under the impression that the OP was not sure whether she was going to keep the stone or not or whether she might have planned on returning it to the vendor.

 

[chrono]

Chrono: while you could be right, I was under the impression that the OP was not sure whether she was going to keep the stone or not or whether she might have planned on returning it to the vendor.

I don't think she can return it to the vendor because it was purchased at an auction. She is thinking of either selling it as is, recutting it before selling it or perhaps even keeping it.

 

[minousbijoux]

Chrono: while you could be right, I was under the impression that the OP was not sure whether she was going to keep the stone or not or whether she might have planned on returning it to the vendor.

I don't think she can return it to the vendor because it was purchased at an auction. She is thinking of either selling it as is, recutting it before selling it or perhaps even keeping it.

Kind of silly discussion imo. Its not wise for vendors to comment on stones and I was simply advising Dana, and other new vendors who might be reading the thread, of that fact. I don't need to comment further on it.

 

[chrono]

Since it appears to be allowed in RT, I'd love to see more vendor participation here in CS too. I miss their input and their point of view can be very different from a consumer's.

 

[austinj]

Since it appears to be allowed in RT, I'd love to see more vendor participation here in CS too. I miss their input and their point of view can be very different from a consumer's.

+1! I find it very helpful.

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello All Again...

Not wishing to have opened Pandora's box but I thought this was a question for a cutter ???

Not that I want to buy the stone as I have 100's to cut already and IF FATHER allows 1000's ???

But the question I thought " was this a candidate for a re-cut and given the photos and dimensions, color, clarity, I thought it was a fair question to ask "a cutter" ???"

I do know the rules and if anything I was bragging on the gem and that it had potential.. Under the assumption it was already owned and the owner wanted to know IF it was worthy ??? Not that I was talking it down or up; just stating facts and not trying to buy it; be the cutter for it, etc. as most on here know I do not re-cut in general for hire... So I was only talking on the technical side... No skin in the game either way...

I am sorry to have said anything and really; I thought I was on safe turf with this one as it was a direct question as whether the gem had the capabilities of being a candidate for a re-cut and would it be worth it...

I guess being a cutter for over 25 years and earning the title I have did not make me worthy of answering such a question...

I will go back to my wheels and just keep cutting and not answer questions worthy of a cutter to answer; Thank you Ms. Chrono for your kindness and sense of forum etiquette...

I am sincerely humbled and thankful;

Most Respectfully;
Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[pyramid]

You know this is a real pity. This forum could really do with REAL professional opinions as so many times people are given amateur replies which are just wrong. I would rather go to a doctor than a neighbour and the same with anything that costs a lot of money. I think it would be good if people had some training before answering this type of question. I know there are forum rules but as has been clarified Dana does not do re-cutting so if he put that upfront it would help.

 

[Niel]

Chrono: while you could be right, I was under the impression that the OP was not sure whether she was going to keep the stone or not or whether she might have planned on returning it to the vendor.

I don't think she can return it to the vendor because it was purchased at an auction. She is thinking of either selling it as is, recutting it before selling it or perhaps even keeping it.

Kind of silly discussion imo. Its not wise for vendors to comment on stones and I was simply advising Dana, and other new vendors who might be reading the thread, of that fact. I don't need to comment further on it.

What makes it a silly discussion? Also what makes it unwise? Just curious as I, as a RT commenter first and foremost, find the knowledge of tradespeople invaluable. I don't think any prosumer here could have had as insightful a response as someone who actually cuts for a living.

Plus I agree this is her stone, he is not advising her of anything other than her question, I see no rule violation, and I imagine Ella doesn't either as the post is still here.


I understand this is not RT though. As this side of the forum seems to have a lot more fellow poster regulating and rules on how one should post.

 

[MollyMalone]

Ye gods. Dana followed the number 1 rule for Trade members: Be helpful. Even if the sapphire were another vendor's product -- which this is not, unless only stones wrested from the earth & faceted by the posting consumer themselves qualify as a non-vendor product -- Trade members are free, even under the policy as written (which as Neil observes, has been accorded, thankfully imo, a more elastic interpretation on the Rocky Talky board), to offer comments that will serve to correct-clarify misinformation.

 

[lovedogs]

You know this is a real pity. This forum could really do with REAL professional opinions as so many times people are given amateur replies which are just wrong. I would rather go to a doctor than a neighbour and the same with anything that costs a lot of money. I think it would be good if people had some training before answering this type of question. I know there are forum rules but as has been clarified Dana does not do re-cutting so if he put that upfront it would help.

+1!!!! I love CS, but wish professionals would answer more on here (as they more commonly do on RT). I think in this case Dana was being extremely helpful and following all guidelines, so I wouldn't want to discourage her, or other Trade members, from writing helpful posts.