Poll: Gemesis vs Natural

[Caratz]

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On 12/24/2003 4:44:20 PM LawGem wrote:

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On 12/24/2003 4:05:25 AM Caratz wrote:



Given the size of the market for diamond simulants (which is far greater by several orders of magnitude than the market for simulants of other gems), I think we may be underestimating the potential size of the market for synthetic diamonds. Of course, it all depends on how they are priced.
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Well, yes. If Gemesis and Apollo price their synthetics comparably to CZ and Moissanite, I predict they will sell a ton of them. Of course, they don't seem to be headed in that direction. The market for CZs is huge because they're so damned cheap, but you don't see anyone using CZs as bridal stones. If diamonds could be had for $5/ct, how many people would really want them anymore?
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I think they would still sell a ton of them even if they are priced substantially higher than cz or moissanite. If people are willing to pay $500/ct for moissanite, they will pay more than $1000/ct for a real diamond, even if it is a synthetic.

I think the reasons that cz is not widely used in e-rings are (1) it is not a real diamond (but a synthetic is), and (2) it is inferior quality and after 6 months it will look like it came out of a meat grinder (but a synthetic will not).

The other difference between diamonds and other gemstones for which there is a synthetic market is the e-ring tradition. Women have to have a diamond, and many will feel the impulse to compare what they have to what other people have. I believe that there are plenty of people in this country would would happily switch to a synthetic than be content with what they perceive to be a diamond that is too small. Of course, it all depends on individual personality. I am still baffled at why people will pay twice as much for a natural diamond at Tiffany than what they can get elsewhere . . .

 

[elmo]

On 12/23/2003 11:54:37 PM valeria101 wrote:

Hopefully, someone at gemesis will read these and include all upmarket cut-quality buffs in their tarket market

My understanding is that Gemesis is in fact cutting these rather well. We've shopped for a fancy shape yellow, and if you thought finding a well-cut/Dave Atlas 1A-1B fancy shape colorless stone is tough, try looking for one in yellow

. So there's a certain appeal to the nice cut and color both that you get with these.

 

[elmo]

On 12/24/2003 7:11:07 PM Caratz wrote:

I think they would still sell a ton of them even if they are priced substantially higher than cz or moissanite. If people are willing to pay $500/ct for moissanite, they will pay more than $1000/ct for a real diamond, even if it is a synthetic.

You guys make a good point...I think things get interesting once these are priced as a viable alternative to high-end simulants like moissanite. I can just hear the QVC sales pitch.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

The Gemesis stones are currently priced at the $2500 to $3500 per carat price range, with their desired target pricing being 1/4th of natural pricing.

The cutting is very nice.

I personally think 1/4th of natural pricing would be a good level for the stones to be marketed. That recognizes their preciousness as a diamond, yet discounts substantially for the fact that they are synthetics.

 

[valeria101]

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On 12/24/2003 9:15:36 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:


I personally think 1/4th of natural pricing would be a good level for the stones to be marketed.
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Indeed! And synthetic diamonds have all chances to look exectly like those mined, as oposed to the "too good to be true" syntetic corrundum and beryl. This can turn into a marketing battle to behold, if Gemesis wants it of course.

 

[strmrdr]

I hope it does turn into a marketing battle.
It will be good for consumers!
Just look at computers when Intel had 99.9% of the market cpu prices were in the $600-$2500 range just for the cpu with total systems running $4000+
AMD comes along with a cpu that to the end user works the same and takes 10%-17% of the market and consumer class cpu's are in the $50-$400 range and total systems are under $400 on the low end.
Intel had 100% of the windows based server market cpus and prices were in the $1500-$5000 range now that amd has aggressively moved into that market space the prices have dropped down to the $300-$2000 range and AMD only has about 2% of the server market.

Intel tried to push that the amd wasn’t the real thing at first but it didn’t work.

The point im making is that in consumer goods it doesn’t take a competitor with a huge market share to drive down prices.

 

[valeria101]

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On 12/25/2003 12:26:03 AM strmrdr wrote:

I
The point im making is that in consumer goods it doesn’t take a competitor with a huge market share to drive down prices.
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This is a great example!
Diamonds are even more vulnerable thoug... Just think of the gap between the purchase price and resale value of diamonds: I would think that quite a few hold on to their diamonds because selling is not a very good deal. I know most diamonds come with some emotional value, but not all, and obviously not for good. If there ever was a god reason to tapper diamond prices, than their "market value" is one... I would say.

 

[Mara]

strm...but along with competitiveness and driving prices down means that most likely more people will have diamonds to wear, many diamonds.




Sure I love the sparklies in general, and I'd still like diamonds for fun, but would I value something like my e-ring or a new pendant as much if they were so easy to get? It's like if you were RICH and could buy anything, suddenly buying everything sounds non-appealing...as opposed to when you really have to save up and buy something really special...it means alot more.




Personally I hope that the synthetics don't really change the market much, maybe move the pricing a bit down or so for natural, but other than that I am crossing my fingers for not much change. Even if it would mean I could get something like an ACA stone for much less....I don't know that it would really be worth it in the hit it would take in that 'mental' value range.

 

[strmrdr]

No mara, how much something costs has little bearing on how dear something is to me.
I have stuff that I picked up at a dollar store that I wouldnt sell for $50000 and have stuff that I paid $500 for that I would likely sell for $50 if I needed the money.
If the same diamond is better to you because it costs $10000 than if it costs $1000 then I feel sorry for you.

 

[Mara]

You seem to be missing my point....




If I have to save up for something rather than just being able to go out and buy it...it means more to me because it was something that I made conscious sacrifices for. It has absolutely nothing to do with it being more expensive meaning more special as opposed to cheaper things having no value.




For example if you could just go out and buy any car you wanted, 10 cars you wanted, because you could--they wouldn't mean as much as the the car that you had to save for 2 years to buy. This has no relevance or bearing on say a $1 card that Greg gave me that I cherish because of what it means. They are two completely different things.




It's similar to something I saw quoted by an extremely rich teenager recently on the HBO special, they said something about how when you have the means to buy anything, nothing sounds appealing, because you have everything already.




Please don't waste your sorry feelings on me...I really don't need them, but thanks for the thought.

Happy Holidays.

 

[strmrdr]

mara,
I get your point.
Re-reading what I wrote it does sound harsher than I intended.
Im sorry for that.
Merry Christmas!!!

 

[pqcollectibles]

I got the point, Mara!

Very few of those "rich teens" really appreciate what they have. I read an article in the orthodontist's office one day about the richest teens in the world. Most are squandering the family fortunes. Very few are pro-active in creating new ventures or learning the in's and out's of the world that affords them their lifestyles.

This whole thread is about choices. Just like the diamond hunt/decision process is. We all come here knowing what we think we have to have. Until we learn. Then the compromises begin. If I want this color in this size diamond, then I'll have to give on the clarity. If I have to have this color and clarity, then carat weight has to take a back seat.

Diamonds are natural. A piece of this earth. Mother Nature made them. Each one is unique. There has never been one like it before, and there will never be another like it again. Labs may be able to create a personality or character for each stone produced, but they cannot replace owning and wearing a piece of this Earth we call home.

Will Rogers said, "Buy land. They aren't making any more of it." Diamonds are diamonds. And the supply, like land, like the resources of this Earth, is not limitless. Sythetics are sythetics. They can/will make them 24/7 for as long as they can. How precious is that?

Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays! To one and all!

 

[whitediamonds]

How do I make a poll on here? please help can't find info on help area. I checked off "poll" and nothing happened, it just posted like a regular message post, no poll.

HOw do I make choices for the poll?
THank you!
private message me so i get the info. i'm new and don't know much! sorry! thanks for any help!!!!

 

[Griffin]

In my experience true synthetics are incredibly hot right now, and there is a very large and growing market acceptance of them among the people who are wealthy enough to afford real.

I do custom design work for some of the most exclusive stores in the country, and I have yet to see a natural sapphire come across my bench as a customer stone. In fact I have two of the first Gemesis yellow stones sitting in on my bench right now.

Educated and wealthy customers are easily seeing the benefits of synthetics and treated natural stones such as red sapphire (yes, that does make it a treated natural ruby at a 1/10th the cost). The lower end of the diamond buying market may still be suckered by the idea that their diamond purchase is an "investment" and by DeBeers propaganda and insecurity-based marketing - lower-end customers have this idea that they are REQUIRED to get a diamond to show they love each other.

My customers that don't feel required to get anything other than whatever it is they damn well please can easily see the benefit of getting exactly what they want made at a tenth the cost. Some of these customers I see back five or six times a year for a new bauble now that they are so affordable (relatively speaking).
To give you an idea I have never set a Moissanite in anything price was an object in. They have all been commisioned designs in custom platinum mountings, and never cheap.

As someone with a few dozens of high-end natural diamonds in reach at any given time, my wife to be wears a Synthetic.
Why? She said that if I got her a real rock she'd kick my ass.
She said she would prefer a synthetic AND a sports car over tying up the money in a real rock and still driving her station wagon everywhere.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

All valid points, Griffin.

The synthetic market definitely has it's niche. It (and the natural market) is constantly growing.

 

[derekinla]

I think the whole debate over synthetics vs natural comes down to the following simple question: 1) What is the "natural" origin of a stone from mother nature worth to you? For some people, their can be no pricetag for something like that - especially for something as emotional and symbolic as an engagement ring. On the other hand, I don't think synthetic diamonds are any less of a diamond than natural diamonds. Dont' forget, sythetics are also made of carbon, covalently bonded in a tetrahedral structure just like natural diamonds and therefore posses identical physical properties (i.e. same BScope scores, Isee2 scores, idealscope iamges etc...) as natural diamonds.

 

[derekinla]

Here's an anology to illustrate my point: Acetaminophen vs. Tylenol. Chemically speaking, generic store brand acetaminophen is still acetaminophen. For some people, there is only one Tylenol (from McNeil Pharmaceuticals) and only Tylenol will do. For others, acetaminophen is acetaminophen, whether it is from McNail pharmaceuticals or from some other pharmaceutical manufacturer.

 

[prefvfr]

Social rituals have proven to be pretty dynamic over the centuries. No reason to think someone can't out-market DeBeers. I found this book chapter on the history of engagements pretty interesting, especially the part about how e-rings and diamonds came into the mix. "Engagements" is definitely big business and it's likely to stay that way whatever stones are used.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9920/9920.ch03.pdf

 

[fire&ice]

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On 1/2/2004 1:25:49 PM derekinla wrote:

Here's an anology to illustrate my point: Acetaminophen vs. Tylenol. Chemically speaking, generic store brand acetaminophen is still acetaminophen. For some people, there is only one Tylenol (from McNeil Pharmaceuticals) and only Tylenol will do. For others, acetaminophen is acetaminophen, whether it is from McNail pharmaceuticals or from some other pharmaceutical manufacturer.

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Yeah, but diamonds have an extra parameter - emotional & romantic. Perhaps if Tylenol became more "sexy", I would switch from my generic.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

Hi - i'm new to this forum.

i've been reading a lot of posts over the last 5 months and have been trying to figure out what's best for my engagement ring.

I felt the same way (about manmade vs. mined diamond) and i tried to go with the yellow gemesis diamond (yes, it's the same price as a white diamond in that size approx).

the result?

I have a beautiful 1.67 ct. vivid yellowish orange asscher cut diamond with 1/2 ct. tw. F/VS1 white diamond trapezoids on each side. the center stone is set in 18k yellow. the ring is platinum. i had it custom made from diamondscultured.com

i couldn't be happier with my ring. And it is indeed VERY hard to tell the difference between this diamond and a natural diamond.

i get compliments all the time, and I am thrilled. I will try to post pictures because you seem to all love pictures.

ariana

 

[verticalhorizon]

That's terrific! Congrats.

I don't see why the marketplace won't support 'cultured' diamonds the way pearls have in 25, 50, or 150 years as larger rough becomes harder and harder to come by.

When it becomes in the best interest for DeBeers to sell cultured diamonds, you'll see a change in PR real fast!

 

[chialea]

Hey, congrats on the ring, we'd love to see pictures!

I wanted to go with a Gemesis diamond myself, but a) yellow is a really bad colour on me and b) we're getting a sapphire. There are great emotional reasons to go with created diamonds, as well, it's just not currently thought of in those terms.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

I know what you mean about the yellow and skin tone. there are actually different shades - a light fancy yellow (sort of lemony) all the way up to bright orange-y yellow. mine looks very orange-y yellow. but a lot of people always just go "wow" - and i love it. the color goes nicely with my skin, and at first i thought i would regret it and would always want that "white" diamond, but I really really love my ring.

i don't know about cultured diamonds being accepted the way cultured pearls are accepted. as far as i know, cultured pearls are the ONLY way you can really buy pearls - "natural" pearls are expensive and so hard to come by. natural pearls are just not something that's common...only really in antique jewelry.

there are enough natural diamonds to go around - so cultured diamonds are not here to replace natural diamonds - i think it's just a special niche.

i would have gone larger, but the gemesis diamonds only go up to 1.5 ct. - so mine was larger than the largest one they carry. imagine having a 3 ct. yellow asscher. now that would be gorgeous.

 

[chialea]

No, no, I'm going to imagine that someone gets the blue ones worked out well enough for me to get some of those. A light blue Asscher would be good. Or four small matched rounds, for a necklace I want to have made... Someday perhaps again my SO will want to buy me jewlery (I mean, besides the wedding ring, I'm very sure he wants to get one of those soon), and cultured blues will be obtainable.

(The necklace design, btw, is having four rounds (or princesses would be good too) invisible-set into a square of white gold. Then imagine tilting the square 45 degrees and running a chain out of the top two sides, like a bezel.)

 

[fancycoloredfan]

i didn't know they made blue cultured diamonds yet - i love would love a blue one as well. blue diamonds are different than sapphires - they are more gray-ish and they look like the ocean. did you ever see that smithsonian exhibit in DC on fancy colored diamonds/rare diamonds?

 

[chialea]

You can find blue cultured diamonds at: http://www.takaradiamonds.com/products/blue/blue.php

I hear gemesis is also coming out with a few blues and greens, but so few they're not really selling them yet. CVD looks much more promising for that.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

Doesn't chatham grow emeralds and sapphires?

I hope Gemesis will bring blues and pinks. I have never seen the apollo diamonds but i've heard their color isn't that nice (for the colorless ones). gemesis doesn't do colorless yet, but it would be interesting to see what they do.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

i checked out the blue diamonds - they seem to be hard to grow.

i think takara diamonds ARE gemesis diamonds - they just call them takara and seem to laser inscribe them.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

wow, talk about bitter.

so you are calling people who might buy this fake and stupid?

why don't you do a little research on the history of cultured pearls.

i wouldn't be so quick to judge. this is a discussion forum. you don't have to judge people.

and i am THRILLED with my diamond.

 

[pinkangel]

I don't think Id be interested in a colorless synthetic, but the fancy colors, heck yes!! If they truly mimic the shades of natural colored diamonds, then bring them on. I'd be sportin' a honkin' pink one...I'm very much looking forward to seeing larger sizes in the pinks and blues. The photos I've seen of the Chatham pinks and blues (Takara) are gorgeous, but still only .40 or less. The Chatham website was showing estimated prices for VVS pinks and blues 1 to 1.25 carats at around 9k, but they don't have any that large yet.

I haven't seen any of the Gemesis yellow, but I've heard they are very nice. I also heard they are working on pinks and blues. For colorless, I would stay with a natural, but I love fancy colored diamonds, and this might an affordable option