Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

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Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 2:32 pm
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 2:21 pm:My appraiser has evaluated many pricescopers rings and is quite knowlegeable when it comes to evaluating ring settings so there is no mistake. I am disapointed that my ring was not hand forged but still think my ring is beautiful and far more delicate and fluid than most CAD and cast rings. I actually just got a compliment on my ring the other day so there is no doubt that SK makes gorgeous rings. I shared my comment hoping that others will just make sure to ask rather than assume like I did that their ring will be 100 % hand forged .


But here's the thing, I'm not assuming, I asked SK straight forwardly, both when asking for a quote and now in response to your post and his response was "we do not use any precast or prefabricated models, all parts and elements are made and assembled by hand."
I don't know what to make of all this...
What did you say to Steven in regards and what was his response?
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 2:52 pm
Written by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 2:23 pm:This was my thought too,Dreamer. I have heard of numerous appraisers not believing a ring to be hand forged simply due to the workmanship and intricate detailing, they have not seen hand forged rings of such calibre and so assume it is cast. So I want to know if that is the case here or if there was specific, definitive, evidence to prove it was indeed cast.

The waviness on the top part of the cup on the center basket, the waviness on the top part of each cathedral shank, and the not so sharp cathedral joints are all signs of casting.
Another indication is that the the cathedral openings are uneven and have a bit of jaggedness to them. When a ring is hand forged, those cathedral openings are actually separate pieces (called wings) that make the cathedral opening. When a ring is cast, the shank is cast without the cathedral openings (just a bit higher to make room for it) and then the openings is sawed with a thin saw. This causes the uneveness and jaggedness in the openings.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 3:13 pm
I wonder if this thread can be shown to Steven, or linked, by someone who has worked with him or knows him? I feel like he should have an opportunity to respond.

Hospotogi I would personally bring this up with Steven if I were you. It is a big deal what your appraiser is alleging (I use that term because it contradicts Steven's statements to maplefemm and because I feel like this is a serious accusation given the price difference bewteen hand forged and cast).

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by SC86 » July 26th, 2011, 3:36 pm
Written by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 3:13 pm:I wonder if this thread can be shown to Steven, or linked, by someone who has worked with him or knows him? I feel like he should have an opportunity to respond.

Hospotogi I would personally bring this up with Steven if I were you. It is a big deal what your appraiser is alleging (I use that term because it contradicts Steven's statements to maplefemm and because I feel like this is a serious accusation given the price difference bewteen hand forged and cast).


Oh my. I didn't mean to stir up trouble with this post! But I too would be interested if someone could verify if SK's work is fully hand forged or partially cast. No one can deny that SF's work is very intricate and beautiful, but I'd just be interested to know if some casting is used.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 3:37 pm
Written by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 2:32 pm:
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 2:21 pm:My appraiser has evaluated many pricescopers rings and is quite knowlegeable when it comes to evaluating ring settings so there is no mistake. I am disapointed that my ring was not hand forged but still think my ring is beautiful and far more delicate and fluid than most CAD and cast rings. I actually just got a compliment on my ring the other day so there is no doubt that SK makes gorgeous rings. I shared my comment hoping that others will just make sure to ask rather than assume like I did that their ring will be 100 % hand forged .


But here's the thing, I'm not assuming, I asked SK straight forwardly, both when asking for a quote and now in response to your post and his response was "we do not use any precast or prefabricated models, all parts and elements are made and assembled by hand."
I don't know what to make of all this...
What did you say to Steven in regards and what was his response?

My fiance had already proposed by the time we got the completed report so we chose to let it go. Maybe its not the ideal thing to do but I really couldnt deal with the situation since my grand father passed away exactly at the same time. It didnt feel right to be upset about how my ring was made when the person I was so close to wont be there to share my wedding day with me. :( Well id rather not be brought up since i havent alleged that all of his rings are cast. Just that mine was.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 4:16 pm
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 3:37 pm:
Written by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 2:32 pm:
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 2:21 pm:My appraiser has evaluated many pricescopers rings and is quite knowlegeable when it comes to evaluating ring settings so there is no mistake. I am disapointed that my ring was not hand forged but still think my ring is beautiful and far more delicate and fluid than most CAD and cast rings. I actually just got a compliment on my ring the other day so there is no doubt that SK makes gorgeous rings. I shared my comment hoping that others will just make sure to ask rather than assume like I did that their ring will be 100 % hand forged .


But here's the thing, I'm not assuming, I asked SK straight forwardly, both when asking for a quote and now in response to your post and his response was "we do not use any precast or prefabricated models, all parts and elements are made and assembled by hand."
I don't know what to make of all this...
What did you say to Steven in regards and what was his response?

My fiance had already proposed by the time we got the completed report so we chose to let it go. Maybe its not the ideal thing to do but I really couldnt deal with the situation since my grand father passed away exactly at the same time. It didnt feel right to be upset about how my ring was made when the person I was so close to wont be there to share my wedding day with me. :( Well id rather not be brought up since i havent alleged that all of his rings are cast. Just that mine was.


I'm really very sorry about your loss of your Grandfather, sincerely, I'm not wishing to cause you further upset.
I know you are not claiming that ALL of SK's rings are cast, but you are claiming that yours is, and with SK stating that NONE of his rings are cast in any part, this claim does deserve a response from SK because it insinuates SK is not being honest and that can be of detriment to his reputation.
It's important I feel that he be able to respond, it's only fair.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by MissStepcut » July 26th, 2011, 4:23 pm
Hospatogi, don't feel bad about bringing it up. Whatever the answer is, this is what Pricescope is for: finding out what jewelers are really doing, making educated choices, and also finding out what methods appraisers use to evaluate what we have.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 4:49 pm
Written by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 4:16 pm:
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 3:37 pm:
Written by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 2:32 pm:
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 2:21 pm:My appraiser has evaluated many pricescopers rings and is quite knowlegeable when it comes to evaluating ring settings so there is no mistake. I am disapointed that my ring was not hand forged but still think my ring is beautiful and far more delicate and fluid than most CAD and cast rings. I actually just got a compliment on my ring the other day so there is no doubt that SK makes gorgeous rings. I shared my comment hoping that others will just make sure to ask rather than assume like I did that their ring will be 100 % hand forged .


But here's the thing, I'm not assuming, I asked SK straight forwardly, both when asking for a quote and now in response to your post and his response was "we do not use any precast or prefabricated models, all parts and elements are made and assembled by hand."
I don't know what to make of all this...
What did you say to Steven in regards and what was his response?

My fiance had already proposed by the time we got the completed report so we chose to let it go. Maybe its not the ideal thing to do but I really couldnt deal with the situation since my grand father passed away exactly at the same time. It didnt feel right to be upset about how my ring was made when the person I was so close to wont be there to share my wedding day with me. :( Well id rather not be brought up since i havent alleged that all of his rings are cast. Just that mine was.


I'm really very sorry about your loss of your Grandfather, sincerely, I'm not wishing to cause you further upset.
I know you are not claiming that ALL of SK's rings are cast, but you are claiming that yours is, and with SK stating that NONE of his rings are cast in any part, this claim does deserve a response from SK because it insinuates SK is not being honest and that can be of detriment to his reputation.
It's important I feel that he be able to respond, it's only fair.


BIG BIG Ditto to all of this. And extra hugs.

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 4:50 pm
Written by MissStepcut » July 26th, 2011, 4:23 pm:Hospatogi, don't feel bad about bringing it up. Whatever the answer is, this is what Pricescope is for: finding out what jewelers are really doing, making educated choices, and also finding out what methods appraisers use to evaluate what we have.


Very well said.

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by LGK » July 26th, 2011, 4:50 pm
Ugh, it's such a grey area. You'd think it wouldn't be. I think some designers say "handmade and not cast" when they mean, they don't use a CAD image and cast a ring as a whole single mold a la WF or BG. I think the only way to know for sure what method they're using is to specifically ask "OK so you don't cast any of the single parts, you *hand fabricate* them?"

I don't know a thing about SK's method- I'm not specifically saying anything about his work. Just, that's Leon's idea of "handmade" (and I strongly suspect, also Facet's higher end line of "handmade"- so it's not like it's a misuse of the term, just that I think we consumers interpret "handmade" usually to be "handforged" while that ain't necessarily so). Harriet had some of her pieces looked at by experienced appraisers and they did say his work was assembled from separate, cast parts and had specific reasons why- the cathedral openings, mold pour marks left on the bottom of prongs, etc. And a few other PSers- though I admit I can't remember who right now- also had that info corroborated by having their Leon pieces examined.

You see the worst abuse of the term "handmade" on Etsy- calling a piece "handmade" when it's only that the seller has set stones in a stock setting.

Sorry, we're kind of threadjacking here!

And of course, handforged is not always > than cast. I have some hand forged pieces (not from Victor or any other PS jeweler!) that are pretty meh in terms of workmanship- compare them to a Leon or even a JBEG piece and nobody would say the forged items were the superior pieces.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 4:55 pm
Written by LGK » July 26th, 2011, 4:50 pm:Ugh, it's such a grey area. You'd think it wouldn't be. I think some designers say "handmade and not cast" when they mean, they don't use a CAD image and cast a ring as a whole single mold a la WF or BG. I think the only way to know for sure what method they're using is to specifically ask "OK so you don't cast any of the single parts, you *hand fabricate* them?"

I don't know a thing about SK's method- I'm not specifically saying anything about his work. Just, that's Leon's idea of "handmade" (and I strongly suspect, also Facet's higher end line of "handmade"- so it's not like it's a misuse of the term, just that I think we consumers interpret "handmade" usually to be "handforged" while that ain't necessarily so). Harriet had some of her pieces looked at by experienced appraisers and they did say his work was assembled from separate, cast parts and had specific reasons why- the cathedral openings, mold pour marks left on the bottom of prongs, etc. And a few other PSers- though I admit I can't remember who right now- also had that info corroborated by having their Leon pieces examined.

You see the worst abuse of the term "handmade" on Etsy- calling a piece "handmade" when it's only that the seller has set stones in a stock setting.

Sorry, we're kind of threadjacking here!


Also well put! It is sort of academic... most consumers are choosing the vendor based on the final finished product and don't care how it is made. But it is not strictly academic when it comes to money, since these vendors charge much more than vendor's using other methods. And at least some of the reason comsumers choose LM or SK or the like is because of the "handmade", in the strict handforged sense, element of their rings. Or maybe not, maybe no one but a few crazy PSers cares at all.

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by LGK » July 26th, 2011, 5:01 pm
Written by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 4:55 pm:
Written by LGK » July 26th, 2011, 4:50 pm:Ugh, it's such a grey area. You'd think it wouldn't be. I think some designers say "handmade and not cast" when they mean, they don't use a CAD image and cast a ring as a whole single mold a la WF or BG. I think the only way to know for sure what method they're using is to specifically ask "OK so you don't cast any of the single parts, you *hand fabricate* them?"

I don't know a thing about SK's method- I'm not specifically saying anything about his work. Just, that's Leon's idea of "handmade" (and I strongly suspect, also Facet's higher end line of "handmade"- so it's not like it's a misuse of the term, just that I think we consumers interpret "handmade" usually to be "handforged" while that ain't necessarily so). Harriet had some of her pieces looked at by experienced appraisers and they did say his work was assembled from separate, cast parts and had specific reasons why- the cathedral openings, mold pour marks left on the bottom of prongs, etc. And a few other PSers- though I admit I can't remember who right now- also had that info corroborated by having their Leon pieces examined.

You see the worst abuse of the term "handmade" on Etsy- calling a piece "handmade" when it's only that the seller has set stones in a stock setting.

Sorry, we're kind of threadjacking here!


Also well put! It is sort of academic... most consumers are choosing the vendor based on the final finished product and don't care how it is made. But it is not strictly academic when it comes to money, since these vendors charge much more than vendor's using other methods. And at least some of the reason comsumers choose LM or SK or the like is because of the "handmade", in the strict handforged sense, element of their rings. Or maybe not, maybe no one but a few crazy PSers cares at all.


Well, and that handforged means that you have a more durable finished product. And when something is incredibly delicate (those ridiculously thin, sub 2mm micropave encrusted shanks come to mind!) that can be incredibly important in how long it'll last. So, yeah- I think it does matter in terms other than the finished aesthetics... and it is frustrating to try to figure out what actually a particular jeweler means when something is "handmade". It does seem like the jewelers that use an unusual type of method- die striking, hand forging- and charge more for it, typically have a lot of pictures showing their methods. Least that's my experience. Even the lower end hand forged pieces I have, I was sent pics of the whole process from start to finish.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 5:14 pm
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 10:06 am: Both SK and LM use some cast parts to create their beautiful rings but if having a ring completely made by hand is important to you only Victor does that .


I'm really not trying to upset Hospatogi here, absolutely not my intention but this is a subject I feel really needs addressing.
The above is a real blanket statement, it's not saying SK used cast parts on "her" ring, it implies he uses cast parts period and that ONLY Victor makes 100% hand forged rings.
I specifically asked SK about 100% hand forged as to not confuse with "handmade" and he confirmed his rings are never cast, in part or otherwise.
When you post a statement as fact to the contrary, it's a kick to the hornet's nest. Numerous PS members have had rings made by SK and others are considering working with him by reputation earned here and on the understanding that the rings are 100% hand forged, not by assumption but by being told directly by SK that they are.
It's a difficult situation to be in, to have your confidence shaken....
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 5:29 pm
Written by LGK » July 26th, 2011, 5:01 pm:
But it is not strictly academic when it comes to money, since these vendors charge much more than vendor's using other methods. And at least some of the reason comsumers choose LM or SK or the like is because of the "handmade", in the strict handforged sense, element of their rings. Or maybe not, maybe no one but a few crazy PSers cares at all.


Well, and that handforged means that you have a more durable finished product. And when something is incredibly delicate (those ridiculously thin, sub 2mm micropave encrusted shanks come to mind!) that can be incredibly important in how long it'll last. So, yeah- I think it does matter in terms other than the finished aesthetics... and it is frustrating to try to figure out what actually a particular jeweler means when something is "handmade". It does seem like the jewelers that use an unusual type of method- die striking, hand forging- and charge more for it, typically have a lot of pictures showing their methods. Least that's my experience. Even the lower end hand forged pieces I have, I was sent pics of the whole process from start to finish.[/quote]

+1 These are my thoughts also... I want hand forged for durability, workmanship and the craft of hand forging. I also feel that if I'm paying over $5,000 for a setting alone that I'm told is hand forged; I want hand forged. I could buy something cast for half the price otherwise.
I think your ring from Victor, LGK, is a stunning work of art, I'm so impressed by Victor's skill. It's that kind of work I'm willing to pay a premium for.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 5:36 pm
A parellel issue came up in Haven's thread about her ner ring. Her ring was hand forged and facricated, but a poster in the trade claimed that it could not have been based on what he saw in the photos. Apparently experts can disagree about this type of thing, and identifying a hand forged piece is not a piece of cake.

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 26th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Written by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 5:36 pm:A parellel issue came up in Haven's thread about her ner ring. Her ring was hand forged and facricated, but a poster in the trade claimed that it could not have been based on what he saw in the photos. Apparently experts can disagree about this type of thing, and identifying a hand forged piece is not a piece of cake.


I remember that, yes, I love Haven's ring and I know it was a very special collaborative project for her and her bench, whom she had a long standing relationship with.
I'm not in the US and so trust is so very important as I cannot see either of these vendors in person, nor see their work in person prior, it requires a lot of faith in one's word. I get my reassurance from PS members who have had direct experience with said vendors.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 8:01 pm
Written by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 5:36 pm:A parellel issue came up in Haven's thread about her ner ring. Her ring was hand forged and facricated, but a poster in the trade claimed that it could not have been based on what he saw in the photos. Apparently experts can disagree about this type of thing, and identifying a hand forged piece is not a piece of cake.


I dont know about Haven's ring but my ring does not have the markings of a " hand forged" piece.
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Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 8:22 pm
Wow, very interesting Hospatogi. I don't know anything about the process of ring making, but your example is quite compelling.

One Ring to rule them all.

Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by NE Jewels » July 26th, 2011, 8:32 pm
Hospatogi,I think the question everybody needs to ask you is whether the vendor verbally said that the ring is not going to have any casting on it whatsoever. If he said that it doesn't have any casting whatsoever then it seems that his work contradicts his words. That's a cast ring. I hope you don't get offended it doesn't take away from the beautify of the piece. I'm sure it's a gorgeous ring.
Calling pieces handmade is different from saying that there isn't going to be anything cast on it whatsoever.
It's a very common tactic in our industry unfortunately. I had a sales rep of a small jewelry manufacturer using the term hand made as a selling point to me. The pieces weren't hand made at all and somebody without bench experience might buy it.
N.E. Jewelry
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 8:59 pm
Written by NE Jewels » July 26th, 2011, 8:32 pm:Hospatogi,I think the question everybody needs to ask you is whether the vendor verbally said that the ring is not going to have any casting on it whatsoever. If he said that it doesn't have any casting whatsoever then it seems that his work contradicts his words. That's a cast ring. I hope you don't get offended it doesn't take away from the beautify of the piece. I'm sure it's a gorgeous ring.
Calling pieces handmade is different from saying that there isn't going to be anything cast on it whatsoever.
It's a very common tactic in our industry unfortunately. I had a sales rep of a small jewelry manufacturer using the term hand made as a selling point to me. The pieces weren't hand made at all and somebody without bench experience might buy it.


My fiance and I had never had a custom piece of jewelry made before and have no bench experience. We thought " hand made" meant casting free so unfortunately we never thought to clarify that point. Its def something I know to ask about now.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by anne_h » July 27th, 2011, 9:01 am
Hospatogi, I think it is very good of you to share your experience, plus all the detailed explanations and of course that very illustrative annotated image.

What I am understanding in the end is that SK told you the ring would be "handmade" and to you that meant "casting-free", but these mismatching definitions were not discovered until after the piece was made.

Thanks to your and others' experiences shared on PS, readers can find out that "handmade" may not be equal to "handforged" or "casting-free". If this is important to someone, they will need to clarify it upfront with the provider.

Again, thank you for being so open. :)

Anne

PS - So maplefemme, I am not sure how this fits into what you understood from SK about him saying to you he does not do any casting, ever. It seems clear in Hospatogi's example that some occurred, at least in her case. But I agree he should be given the chance to explain. Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Perhaps someone can point out this thread to him... (BTW, I don't know him, I have no stake in this, just don't want to see fellow PSers upset.)
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 27th, 2011, 11:18 am
Written by anne_h » July 27th, 2011, 9:01 am:Hospatogi, I think it is very good of you to share your experience, plus all the detailed explanations and of course that very illustrative annotated image.

What I am understanding in the end is that SK told you the ring would be "handmade" and to you that meant "casting-free", but these mismatching definitions were not discovered until after the piece was made.

Thanks to your and others' experiences shared on PS, readers can find out that "handmade" may not be equal to "handforged" or "casting-free". If this is important to someone, they will need to clarify it upfront with the provider.

Again, thank you for being so open. :)

Anne

PS - So maplefemme, I am not sure how this fits into what you understood from SK about him saying to you he does not do any casting, ever. It seems clear in Hospatogi's example that some occurred, at least in her case. But I agree he should be given the chance to explain. Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Perhaps someone can point out this thread to him... (BTW, I don't know him, I have no stake in this, just don't want to see fellow PSers upset.)


I agree, Anne, it appears it's very important to ask if a piece is handmade or hand wrought/casting free.
I checked my email conversations with SK and specifically requested a quote for a completely hand wrought setting and he confirmed back to me that in his quote, that's been my personal experience.
I did mention this conversation on PS to him and I'm not sure if he has seen it.
I don't want to question him about Hospitogi's ring any further as she specifically requested not to be involved further and I respect her wishes.
All I can do is be responsible for my own purchases and make an informed choice.
I think this is a good topic, very enlightening...
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by NARRISHKEIT » July 27th, 2011, 1:55 pm
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 8:01 pm:
Written by Dreamer_D » July 26th, 2011, 5:36 pm:A parellel issue came up in Haven's thread about her ner ring. Her ring was hand forged and facricated, but a poster in the trade claimed that it could not have been based on what he saw in the photos. Apparently experts can disagree about this type of thing, and identifying a hand forged piece is not a piece of cake.


I dont know about Haven's ring but my ring does not have the markings of a " hand forged" piece.


There are several advantages to having the channel set part cast as in H's ring. The straight and flat channel bed structure for the french cuts are precisely done this way.

Sometimes the issue with a single cast piece is at the joints, but in the example above the joints were welded together from what looks like a number of cast pieces, this combined with strong polish really improves this ring over a single cast piece.

A micropave halo is quite another story and is much more likely to be completely hand forged along with the curved struts, baskets and prongs found in the micropave rings commonly displayed on PS from SK or LM.

It may be the case that some rings contain some cast parts, that is really not a negative and in most designs the durability differences will be negligible, whereas the fabrication time, symmetry and uniformity of some of the structural pieces is improved by casting.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by NE Jewels » July 28th, 2011, 10:38 am
Written by Hospatogi » July 26th, 2011, 8:59 pm: My fiance and I had never had a custom piece of jewelry made before and have no bench experience. We thought " hand made" meant casting free so unfortunately we never thought to clarify that point. Its def something I know to ask about now.


Hospatogi I'm sorry you had a disappointing experience here. I would say to most consumers to do their due diligence before buying a piece of jewelry but it sounds like you really did that here.

This is a real grey area in the industry. These terms are used as marketing tools to help move product. In my store though the only time I would advertise a piece as hand made would be some estate pieces that I've accumulated over the years which definitely are hand made. Pricescope seems to be different in that the consumer has educated themselves enough to know the difference (even though theoretically) and specifically requests a certain type of manufacture. The term therefore has moved from a marketing tool of the jeweler to a request of the buyer. It's different.

Narrishkeit, the advantages of casting or hand made are debatable and I don't think that was the question. The purchaser here asked for a hand made jewel. She has done her due diligence to know the positives and negatives of hand made jewelry, it seems like and made a request based on her preferences\requirements.
N.E. Jewelry
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by J_Rock » July 28th, 2011, 11:41 am
This thread has given me a real concern regarding using SK for my project. Up until this point, I was certain I would be using SK instead of LM, but now I am leaning back towards LM. It seems LM has a more concrete stance on what handmade means (without all the deceptive marketing BS), and takes pride in providing "one of a kind" craftsmanship. How could something like this happen with SK, given that his prices are pretty much in line with LM and he claims to be on the "level" as LM? Something feels really fowl about this situation. SK needs to get on here quick to straighten this out, otherwise, maybe people shouldn't be so quick to mention SK and LM in the same breath.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by LGK » July 28th, 2011, 12:17 pm
Written by J_Rock » July 28th, 2011, 11:41 am:This thread has given me a real concern regarding using SK for my project. Up until this point, I was certain I would be using SK instead of LM, but now I am leaning back towards LM. It seems LM has a more concrete stance on what handmade means (without all the deceptive marketing BS), and takes pride in providing "one of a kind" craftsmanship. How could something like this happen with SK, given that his prices are pretty much in line with LM and he claims to be on the "level" as LM? Something feels really fowl about this situation. SK needs to get on here quick to straighten this out, otherwise, maybe people shouldn't be so quick to mention SK and LM in the same breath.

Actually, the exact same questions have arisen about Leon's methods in the last few months. A longtime member Harriet had an appraiser examine her Leon solitaire (which had fallen apart w/in a very short period of time) and the same sorts of things that were mentioned by Hospatogi's appraiser were said about Harriet's solitaire from Leon- i.e., very specific reasons why the appraiser thought cast. Whether that means that every single piece from SK and/or Leon is cast, or some are handforged and some are cast depending on the best methods, or what, "handmade" definitely does not always mean handforged from what it sounds like.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by pregcurious » July 29th, 2011, 11:11 pm
Has there been a resolution to this about LM and SK? Is Canera the only option we have for 100% hand forged?
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by maplefemme » July 30th, 2011, 5:37 am
Written by LGK » July 28th, 2011, 12:17 pm:
Written by J_Rock » July 28th, 2011, 11:41 am:This thread has given me a real concern regarding using SK for my project. Up until this point, I was certain I would be using SK instead of LM, but now I am leaning back towards LM. It seems LM has a more concrete stance on what handmade means (without all the deceptive marketing BS), and takes pride in providing "one of a kind" craftsmanship. How could something like this happen with SK, given that his prices are pretty much in line with LM and he claims to be on the "level" as LM? Something feels really fowl about this situation. SK needs to get on here quick to straighten this out, otherwise, maybe people shouldn't be so quick to mention SK and LM in the same breath.

Actually, the exact same questions have arisen about Leon's methods in the last few months. A longtime member Harriet had an appraiser examine her Leon solitaire (which had fallen apart w/in a very short period of time) and the same sorts of things that were mentioned by Hospatogi's appraiser were said about Harriet's solitaire from Leon- i.e., very specific reasons why the appraiser thought cast. Whether that means that every single piece from SK and/or Leon is cast, or some are handforged and some are cast depending on the best methods, or what, "handmade" definitely does not always mean handforged from what it sounds like.


J_Rock, LGK makes a valid point here about LM's work also being questioned, there's definite evidence that he may also use casting in some of his rings.
I do feel you, I'm very much in the same boat as you, I was set to have SK create my ring and this as shaken my confidence. However, in regards to mentioning them "in the same breath"; LM has made some amazing rings, SK has made some amazing rings, some people are wearing rings stamped with LM that were made by SK when he was a bench for LM. Let's be realistic here, LM isn't making all of the rings himself anymore. They may bare his stamp, they may have been designed by him, quality control checked by him, but it doesn't mean he personally made it. Some PS members have tried to request he personally make their ring and he's refused, claiming he won't give preferential treatment.
I personally refuse to deal with LM, my choice.
I am now working with Victor, I'm fully confident in his work being 100% hand forged and cast free. He has been fantastic to work with so far, approachable, extremely knowledgeable, responsive and collaborative. Everything I was looking for.
J_Rock, whoever you decide on, I hope it works out perfect for you.
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by cokitty » August 11th, 2011, 6:28 pm
I have worked with both LM and SK on multiple projects, not just rings but other things as well. I just had this link sent to me, I think it might be worth it for y'all to see my thread about a ring that I ought to have next week. Three Stone Diamond and Ruby Ring

I have to disagree with some of the comments made about the other ring posted, why does the shank being too tall mean it could not be from rolled platinum?

I am not trying to start anything, but just because one person is not capable doesn't mean no jeweler is...

I would ask Hospatogi why she posted here before talking to SK? I mean if you have limited time to address a situation wouldn't it be best to go to the source?

An Angel who did not so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards- Gaiman
Re: Cushion Halo Setting - Leon Mege or Steve Kirsch?

Post by anne_h » August 11th, 2011, 6:40 pm
Maplefemme!! You went with Victor in the end! (just saw that now)

I hope you will be thrilled with the outcome. He did a fabulous job on my ring, and his customer service skills are amazing.

Anne


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