Looking for advice on a red stone

[iserae]

Hi all,

I'm looking for an unheated red stone, around 1 carat plus, without visible inclusions. Rubies seem to be a bit too expensive for me but I quite like spinel, even though the sort of vivid red rubies can provide seems a bit hard to find.

Anyway, I came across this gem: http://www.starruby.in/store/spinel/1-14-carat-pigeon-blood-red-eye-clean-spinel-from-tanzania

What do you think of the pricing and color? The color is quite attractive to me on-screen but I'm afraid the gem might be a touch too dark in person. Would setting it in white gold and surrounding it with diamonds (alright, moissanites) help? Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

 

[chrono]

I agree with your caution.
1. The stone is cut to show a large window in an effort to get more light through the stone to lighten the colour
2. Tone looks dark
3. Spinels are notorious shifters, and many will become orangish or brownish indoors.

 

[pregcurious]

I have a red spinel and agree with Chrono's advice. Mine gets a little darker indoors, but not too dark. It shifts from the color you see in my avatar to the equal degree on the side of red with a orange secondary. It never looks brown, or like a black hole.

 

[FrekeChild]

Yeah, that has a huge window, which means that it won't sparkle in the middle. What is your budget?

 

[pregcurious]

Vendor's pictures usually show stones looking their best, so it is best to assume that it will look darker and less saturated in person, and have more brown (for warm colors) or more grey (for cool colors).

Top red spinels at 2 cts and above went for $2000-3000/ct last year. Below 2 cts, the price is better. Top color is neutral red to red with pink/purple secondary. Shifting towards orange is okay, but not brown or reddish orange.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I don't know your budget. This one I think is reasonable for a red spinel and is quite beautiful. It does have some orange in it which may or may not be to your liking.

http://www.thegemtrader.com/Jul14BSpinelPage.htm

 

[dk168]

I agree with your caution.
3. Spinels are notorious shifters, and many will become orangish or brownish indoors.

Concur with this and learnt my lesson the hard way!

Luckily, the stone was inexpensive and I was able to return it to the vendor and got a full refund.

I had high hopes for it after seeing the vendor's photo and video that showed a very vivid dark pink (my kind of red), and was thoroughly dejected when it failed to live up to expectations as it looked brownish and orangey in real life.

Good luck with your search.

DK

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I agree with your caution.
3. Spinels are notorious shifters, and many will become orangish or brownish indoors.

Concur with this and learnt my lesson the hard way!

Luckily, the stone was inexpensive and I was able to return it to the vendor and got a full refund.

I had high hopes for it after seeing the vendor's photo and video that showed a very vivid dark pink (my kind of red), and was thoroughly dejected when it failed to live up to expectations as it looked brownish and orangey in real life.

Good luck with your search.

DK

Good point on lessons learned the hard way. It is incredibly hard to find a spinel that lives up to it's glamour shots. Returning stones is an unfortunate part of the process for the reasons Chrono listed.

 

[iserae]

Thanks Chrono and pregcurious for the advice about shifting, I didn't know about that! Will be accordingly wary. I visited some local stores today - all the red spinels they had on hand looked brownish to me under fluorescent lighting. Going by this they would have looked far better under sunlight, but I spend most of my time indoors and don't want to be looking at a brownish stone.

Lisa, that is a gorgeous color. My budget is a bit lower though, I was hoping to find something in the range of $500 per carat for use in a ring. Alternatively, I dream of a 3ct investment-grade stone... but I'll probably have to keep dreaming for now.

Thanks, DK!

 

[Marlow]

To expensive - windowed, brown and dark.

Try Multicolorgems.

 

[chrono]

Probably too pink for you.
http://www.multicolour.com/detail/?-1789150459

Expensive for the quality but with the 25% discount going on, might be worth a look. Vendor states it is eye clean.
http://www.africagems.com/cushion-red-spinel-g2k-4440.html

Purplish pear
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.28-carats.html-0

Like this one a lot but it's pinkish.
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.08-carats.html-3

 

[SparkliesLuver]

I wonder what this would look like IRL...

1.24 ct Garnet trillion
No heat
$373
https://www.johndyergems.com/catalog_pages/gemstone-Gypsy_Rose_Garnet3480.html

 

[SparkliesLuver]

And there's this one, too.

2.6 ct garnet
9.48 mm x 7.24 mm
No treatments
$260
http://clearcutgems.com/garnet.html

 

[pregcurious]

I wonder what this would look like IRL...

1.24 ct Garnet trillion
No heat
$373
https://www.johndyergems.com/catalog_pages/gemstone-Gypsy_Rose_Garnet3480.html

This one already has a lot of orange and brown in its glamour shot, which does not bode well for its performance in person.

 

[pregcurious]

Probably too pink for you.
http://www.multicolour.com/detail/?-1789150459

Expensive for the quality but with the 25% discount going on, might be worth a look. Vendor states it is eye clean.
http://www.africagems.com/cushion-red-spinel-g2k-4440.html

Purplish pear
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.28-carats.html-0

Like this one a lot but it's pinkish.
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.08-carats.html-3

I like the last one the best, but these are all pink to me, not red.

 

[pregcurious]

And there's this one, too.

2.6 ct garnet
9.48 mm x 7.24 mm
No treatments
$260
http://clearcutgems.com/garnet.html

This stone has a very dark areas, and is not very saturated, and will probably go very dark unless it is under diffused bright light. It also reads very strongly towards purple/magenta.

 

[chrono]

Probably too pink for you.
http://www.multicolour.com/detail/?-1789150459

Expensive for the quality but with the 25% discount going on, might be worth a look. Vendor states it is eye clean.
http://www.africagems.com/cushion-red-spinel-g2k-4440.html

Purplish pear
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.28-carats.html-0

Like this one a lot but it's pinkish.
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-1.08-carats.html-3

I like the last one the best, but these are all pink to me, not red.

Yup, they are predominantly pink. It's not possible to get a vivid red spinel for $500/ct. even if hovering just under the 1 ct mark.

 

[T L]

Hi all,

I'm looking for an unheated red stone, around 1 carat plus, without visible inclusions. Rubies seem to be a bit too expensive for me but I quite like spinel, even though the sort of vivid red rubies can provide seems a bit hard to find.

Anyway, I came across this gem: http://www.starruby.in/store/spinel/1-14-carat-pigeon-blood-red-eye-clean-spinel-from-tanzania

What do you think of the pricing and color? The color is quite attractive to me on-screen but I'm afraid the gem might be a touch too dark in person. Would setting it in white gold and surrounding it with diamonds (alright, moissanites) help? Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

Vivid red in any stone is very difficult to find, unless you have lots of $$$.

All the stones shown thus far in this thread have other secondary color to them, like orange and purple. If you want a pure red, then it will take a long time looking. You may want to go with a stone that has a secondary color, as I mentioned (usually orange or purple), but I would make sure it is lighter in tone so it doesn't look extinct.

I think red fire opals are very nice if you can find an untreated one from a reputable dealer (they're usually dyed). As they tend to be hazy, that might not be for you, but a one carat stone will face up nicely. They tend to have an orange secondary color as well.

Good luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhF5-QKcZTA

 

[pregcurious]

The stones below read red to me, and orange is not always bad. In fact, orange in spinels is lovely if the stone is not dark. I would call these stones medium or medium plus. (The stones below are all sold, but are you can still see the price at the time of sale. Prices have gone up in the last few years.)

You may want to contact Brad at the The Gem Trader to see if he has anything available around 1 ct.

This is what I would call a "flame spinel" (red with orange secondary). It's a great example of a spinel that does not look like classic ruby, and has orange, but is beautiful in its own right:

1.38 carat for $1587. Sold Mar 20??
http://www.thegemtrader.com/Mar13RSpinelPage.htm


This is a classic Burmese spinel, just sold this month, with a more neutral-looking red. In the 1st picture of the stone, it looks neutral red (on my screen). In the 2nd picture of the stone, you can see an orange secondary. I would not be surprised if it shifts a little towards purple or orange, depending on the source of light, which is fine as long as it does go to far, or look too brown/black.

0.59 carat for $595
http://www.thegemtrader.com/Jan15BSpinelPage.htm



Here's nice pear, 1.07 ct for $743. Sold Dec 20?? This reads red with pink to me, with some orange.
http://www.thegemtrader.com/Dec13RedSpinelPage.htm

 

[pregcurious]

These are stones from a company named Nomad, which sells to the trade. They have some of the loveliest red spinels I have seen on the internet. They are all medium-dark, which is what I prefer, and I would expect these colors to command to more than the previous stones I posted from The Gem Trader.

Red with orange secondary, from Tanzania.


Red with pink, from Tanzania. 9.52 ct in a ring from Jeffrey Bilgore.


Classic red from Burma. 2.07 ct. I would expect this to shift. It may look like the first stone from Nomad under incandescent light, and the second stone (9.52 ct) in UV light.

 

[pregcurious]

In addition to the standard things to look for in any colored stone, you should look for flourescence. The stone in my avatar goes more pink in bright UV light (one a sunny day, as shown) because it has red/pink flourescence. This is a very important quality to have in a red or pink spinel. Red spinels that are medium dark tend to "black out" or go very dark in bright sunlight if they do not have flourescence. Good Burmese and Tanzanian red spinels both have this fluorescence, and I even have a Sri Lankan pink spinel that has flour (weaker than my Burmese red.)

 

[LoversKites]

In addition to the standard things to look for in any colored stone, you should look for flourescence. The stone in my avatar goes more pink in bright UV light (one a sunny day, as shown) because it has red/pink flourescence. This is a very important quality to have in a red or pink spinel. Red spinels that are medium dark tend to "black out" or go very dark in bright sunlight if they do not have flourescence. Good Burmese and Tanzanian red spinels both have this fluorescence, and I even have a Sri Lankan pink spinel that has flour (weaker than my Burmese red.)

What if it doesn't fluorescence well but has fine silk throughout? I thought silk was responsible for dispersing the sunlight around the gem to make it glow, and the fluorescence helped in that regard. Hmm, it's probably a combo of both that create the effect.

 

[pregcurious]

Silk can also help disperse light, but I don't think this is a focus in spinels like it is in rubies/sapphires. A top quality red spinel (by trade ideal standards) does not necessarily have silk, like one might expect in a top ruby. Spinels also have a higher RI than sapphire, and can really sparkle in light to medium colors, if they don't have silk. A red spinel that is medium-dark can have amazing crystal/clarity that I think sets spinels apart from rubies. They are 2 different animals. That said, there are some who like silk in their spinels, and I would not say no to a spinel with a tiny bit of silk.

In my personal experience, red/pink fluorescence alone can stop red/pink spinels from blacking out in UV light. (Top rubies also have red/pink flour and silk, of course.) The red/pink flour has a different effect than silk--it makes the color pop and the stone glow, whereas in my experience, silk makes sapphires look velvety and glow. Strong red/pink flour can make a red/pink spinel look incredibily vivid and amazing in UV light.

As an aside, the stones from TGT are all smaller than the ones from Nomad, so that may contribute to their lighter color. Some people call the lighter red color "Jedi red", as in the glowing red of a Jedi's lightsaber.

 

[minousbijoux]

Silk can also help disperse light, but I don't think this is a focus in spinels like it is in rubies/sapphires. A top quality red spinel (by trade ideal standards) does not necessarily have silk, like one might expect in a top ruby. Spinels also have a higher RI than sapphire, and can really sparkle in light to medium colors, if they don't have silk. A red spinel that is medium-dark can have amazing crystal/clarity that I think sets spinels apart from rubies. They are 2 different animals. That said, there are some who like silk in their spinels, and I would not say no to a spinel with a tiny bit of silk.

In my personal experience, red/pink fluorescence alone can stop red/pink spinels from blacking out in UV light. (Top rubies also have red/pink flour and silk, of course.) The red/pink flour has a different effect than silk--it makes the color pop and the stone glow, whereas in my experience, silk makes sapphires look velvety and glow. Strong red/pink flour can make a red/pink spinel look incredibily vivid and amazing in UV light.

As an aside, the stones from TGT are all smaller than the ones from Nomad, so that may contribute to their lighter color. Some people call the lighter red color "Jedi red", as in the glowing red of a Jedi's lightsaber.

Preg: spinels actually have a lower RI than sapphires. I don't know if its the case that trade ideal standards for red spinel dictate little or no silk (you seem knowledgable about red spinels), but I DO know that silk in red spinels is quite common and causes the glow with less sparkle. I agree with you - I could take a bit of silk but prefer sparkle over glow. I think the great Burmese spinels may have both? Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[pregcurious]

Silk can also help disperse light, but I don't think this is a focus in spinels like it is in rubies/sapphires. A top quality red spinel (by trade ideal standards) does not necessarily have silk, like one might expect in a top ruby. Spinels also have a higher RI than sapphire, and can really sparkle in light to medium colors, if they don't have silk. A red spinel that is medium-dark can have amazing crystal/clarity that I think sets spinels apart from rubies. They are 2 different animals. That said, there are some who like silk in their spinels, and I would not say no to a spinel with a tiny bit of silk.

In my personal experience, red/pink fluorescence alone can stop red/pink spinels from blacking out in UV light. (Top rubies also have red/pink flour and silk, of course.) The red/pink flour has a different effect than silk--it makes the color pop and the stone glow, whereas in my experience, silk makes sapphires look velvety and glow. Strong red/pink flour can make a red/pink spinel look incredibily vivid and amazing in UV light.

As an aside, the stones from TGT are all smaller than the ones from Nomad, so that may contribute to their lighter color. Some people call the lighter red color "Jedi red", as in the glowing red of a Jedi's lightsaber.

Preg: spinels actually have a lower RI than sapphires. I don't know if its the case that trade ideal standards for red spinel dictate little or no silk (you seem knowledgable about red spinels), but I DO know that silk in red spinels is quite common and causes the glow with less sparkle. I agree with you - I could take a bit of silk but prefer sparkle over glow. I think the great Burmese spinels may have both? Correct me if I'm wrong...

Thanks, Minous, I stand corrected. Spinels have an RI of 1.712 - 1.736 and sapphires and RI of 1.762-1.770. Spinels have lower RI, but they do sparkle in a way that sapphires do not.

I have the book Terra Spinel that shows many top Burmese spinels, and they do not have apparent silk. Top spinels just look different from top rubies and sapphires; I assume the level of silk you mean is the kind that we see in the legendary blue-purple Kashmir sapphires. I don't think that level of silk is required or desirable in a top spinel, and in general, I have noticed top spinels to be very clean.

You can access one of the main spinel illustrations from Terra spinel here:
http://www.spinelbook.com/images/pages/spinel-pp-196-197.jpg

The Nomad spinels I posted are some of the top spinels that I've noticed on the market since 2009. You can also see top red spinels at www.Kingdomofredspinels.com,,,, but they are not Tanzanian or Burmese. None of these have the noticable silk you would expect in a top ruby/sapphire. Part of what is lovely about spinels is that they can have excellent crystal. I think part of what is mesmerizing about colored diamonds and colored spinels is that they can have excellent crystal and color. It's a very different effect than sapphires.

Can anyone speak about why sapphires look so glassy, even when they are not included and don't have a strong color? I would prefer a sapphire with silk, over one that is clean because they don't sparkle like spinels or diamonds anyway. Light colored spinels look diamond-like to me, and almost metallic sometimes.

 

[chrono]

The trade ideal for red spinels is to be crystal, in addition to having great colouration. I like the extra punch fluorescence provides when the spinel is exposed to a UV source.

ETA
Did some thinking about why pastel sapphires look glassy whereas pastel spinels look sparkly...I wonder if it is because sapphires are doubly refractive and spinels are singly refractive.

 

[pregcurious]

The trade ideal for red spinels is to be crystal, in addition to having great colouration. I like the extra punch fluorescence provides when the spinel is exposed to a UV source.

Thanks, Chrono. I have been told by those in the trade that that is the case, but I was starting to doubt myself.

I was thinking of your blue/purple color shift spinel when I was writing my previous, long response, and thinking of what great crystal it has.

 

[pregcurious]

The trade ideal for red spinels is to be crystal, in addition to having great colouration. I like the extra punch fluorescence provides when the spinel is exposed to a UV source.

ETA
Did some thinking about why pastel sapphires look glassy whereas pastel spinels look sparkly...I wonder if it is because sapphires are doubly refractive and spinels are singly refractive.

Hmm. Zircons are sparkly, but they are not singly refractive. I should probably pose my question to a more gemology based forum.

 

[chrono]

Zircon is not glassy though; it has very high RI. Their DR however, makes them look fuzzy, rather than sharp. Good question to pose on GO.

 

[pregcurious]

Agreed.