Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World War I?

[AGBF]

This thread is an attempt to move a discussion from another thread where it started to its own thread. I will be copying the most salient posts from that thread to this one. I wanted to get this topic out of that thread before it blossomed and became too unwieldy to move.

As it was, I had trouble choosing an appropriate title for this thread. I chose the word "conflict", deciding to focus mainly on the conflict in the Middle East between the Jews and the Arabs over a homeland. I am well aware, however, that there are many conflicts in the Middle East and that it is a complicated region with complicated problems.

However, had I chosen the word, "conflicts" for this thread the topic could very well have veered into the centuries old feud between the Shia and the Sunni Muslims which still dominates much of the Middle East today or into something like the ISIS desire to annihilate the Druze. There has to be some boundary to what we are to discuss and the Arab versus Jewish nationalism is huge enough!

So with that, I will go back and copy some of the postings from the other thread.

Deb/AGBF

 

[AGBF]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

movie zombie wrote:

it is a subject, deb, that would take a lot of hours in its own thread but i'll say this: it starts with WWI and the Allies making promises they had no intention of keeping regarding the creation of nation states . the West carved it up to suit their interests, not the tribal affiliations. it was a no brainer that there would be resentment and rebellion.

for a start: http://www.amazon.com/Lawrence-Arabia-Deceit-Imperial-Making/dp/038553292X
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el_Y2PfiNDY
as well as
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/questions/nations/index.html and I quote:

Ottomans in Turkey during World War I [ enlarge ]
In World War I, the Ottoman Empire joined forces with the Germans and Austro-Hungarians. Some Arab states joined the British under the leadership of the Sharif of Mecca. In return, the British promised them independence after the war. The British and French, however, had already made a secret deal (the Sykes-Picot Agreement), carving up the Middle East between themselves into areas of direct or indirect control.

A final complication was the Balfour Declaration made by the British in 1917, promising their support for "the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people." This agreement conflicted with the promise of Arab independence and set the stage for much further conflict.

The Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement helped create a legacy of resentment toward colonial rule and distrust of Western motives that persists for many in the Middle East.

 

[AGBF]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

I have looked at all three of the websites you cited, MZ. I must admit that I did not spend much time on two of them since I am familiar with the content of those sites (the history of the Middle East from the Ottoman Empire through World War II). I spent a couple of hours watching the YouTube video of the discussion between Scott Anderson and Ali Allawi, authors 2014 books on T.E. Lawrence and King Faisal, however, since I was unaware of those books. (I have not kept up on the recent literature about the history of the Middle East.) Their books are actually calling me now. Did you read them both? I haven't done any reading on this topic (see an article here or there) in years. Which brings me to a personal question: how did you become interested in this topic?

I did not have time tonight to watch the entire interview of Messrs Anderson and Allawi, but in the amount of video that I did watch there was very little reference to the rise of Jewish nationalism (only a slight mention of the Balfour Declaration). All the discussion was about the details of rising Arab nationalism.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

Interesting topic.
I looked into it at one time because it sounded interesting.
It gets deep and highly complex in a hurry.
The ww1 stuff is just one facet of it, if the entire thing was a RB it would be 1 star facet.
In a lot of ways its just an excuse for fighting in one chapter of a very very long book of conflict.

 

[distracts]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

I'm pretty sure the roots of the middle east conflict lie in organized religion. Sure, colonialism certainly gave a big helping hand to throwing together groups that should have been kept apart, but it's still religious differences that are the drivers.

 

[AGBF]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

I'm pretty sure the roots of the middle east conflict lie in organized religion. Sure, colonialism certainly gave a big helping hand to throwing together groups that should have been kept apart, but it's still religious differences that are the drivers.

OK...I just got up for the dog and going back to bed, but let me throw this out as a counter point. The roots of the conflict lie in colonialism and in oil. The major powers, at first Great Britain and France and later the United States as well, wanted to make sure that they secured their sources of oil in the Middle East and that all other policy was subordinate to those interests?

AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

I'm pretty sure the roots of the middle east conflict lie in organized religion. Sure, colonialism certainly gave a big helping hand to throwing together groups that should have been kept apart, but it's still religious differences that are the drivers.

OK...I just got up for the dog and going back to bed, but let me throw this out as a counter point. The roots of the conflict lie in colonialism and in oil. The major powers, at first Great Britain and France and later the United States as well, wanted to make sure that they secured their sources of oil in the Middle East and that all other policy was subordinate to those interests?

AGBF

It goes much farther back than that.
All of that hasn't helped the situation but it goes much further back.
I would say tribalism/groupism is more of a factor over history than religion which is relatively new.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Do The Roots of The Middle East Conflict Lie In World Wa

karl, when the Brits and France with the complicity of the US defined the middle east country borders after WWI they did so for their own colonial aspirations, not based on tribal/ethnicity/language groupings. they also promised both the Palestinians and Jews the same thing re having their own country. the Palestinians were made the promise in exchange for fighting with the Allies but the Allies knew at the time they were lying to the Palestinians and laughed about it.

I do not discount problems going way back in time. but at this time and place we can see the direct result of colonial State building that did not take into account the needs of the population affected, the reason for distrust of those populations regarding western involvement, and the distrust to keep promises [hey, where is that Palestinian state?].

Laurence [of Arabia fame] arrived at the British palace to be knighted for his part in all this.....and instead walked away in silence.