Ebola arrives in America tomorrow on a fancy private jet

[momhappy]

^Yes, ebola in the US was really just a matter of time and while it's scary, part of what makes it so deadly is things like an overwhelmed health care system, poor sanitary conditions, etc., which can be (somewhat) controlled here in the US.

 

[ksinger]

Puts all the hysterical wailing, gnashing, and hand-wringing when they brought the docs back for quarantine, in perspective, doesn't it?

Something like this was always going to be the REAL threat, not a highly-publicized flight on a specially equipped aircraft.

Yet another great reason to avoid Dallas...

 

[arkieb1]

I am one of the few that thought it was great they brought the two people to the US with Ebola, not only from a moral standpoint, because it was a practise run for worse to come. If they know what they are dealing with first hand in a controlled situation they have a better chance of dealing with it when it arrives by accident. Like now...... They are also undoubtedly perfecting medications to deal with treating the victims and learning more as they go as well.

Scientists here say worse case scenario is Ebola could infect around 1.4 million people by January 1015 which should be incredibly frightening for all of us.

 

[iLander]

I think there's something their not telling us.

I got this from the CDC website;

When an infection does occur in humans, the virus can be spread in several ways to others. Ebola is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with

blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola
objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus
infected animals
Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.
Healthcare providers caring for Ebola patients and the family and friends in close contact with Ebola patients are at the highest risk of getting sick because they may come in contact with infected blood or body fluids of sick patients.

So, you're telling me that those infected doctors licked their patients or had cuts that weren't covered with gloves? What?

HOW is this happening? Does anyone have a report in which the sick doctors explained their exact point of contracting the disease?

I'm starting to think it permeates healthy skin . . . Is that possible? OR were these doctors eating monkeys? WHAT is the real story?

Especially when I read this from the CDC:

Wash hands frequently or use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer.
Avoid contact with blood and body fluids of any person, particularly someone who is sick.
Do not handle items that may have come in contact with an infected person’s blood or body fluids.
Do not touch the body of someone who has died from Ebola.

 

[VapidLapid]

I am glad they advise us not to touch the body of a person who has died from ebola. I already feel as if I dodged a bullet.
I suspect that, when CDC says "not spread through air or water" they are telling the truth, in that ebola itself (free virus, not inside a host cell) will not survive in air or water. However, their statement could be more complete and informative if they add specific details. Pointing out that when a person coughs or sneezes (and for some people just talk) little droplets of saliva and or sputum can be aerosolized. We all breathe the same air, and droplets. I doubt that many people consider the limitation of the cdc's speech, it's literal truth and the nuance of meaning that it lacks. The same caveat for the water route, too. Ebola virus doesn't live in the water. But, if it is in some host cells that get into the water, it may remain viable for as long as it takes for the host cells to break down. A dead body upstream can shed fluid and cells for quite a long time. If one relies on that stream for fresh water...it could be like touching the body of a person who has died of ebola; action at a distance.

 

[ksinger]

I think there's something their not telling us.

I got this from the CDC website;

When an infection does occur in humans, the virus can be spread in several ways to others. Ebola is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with

blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola
objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus
infected animals
Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.
Healthcare providers caring for Ebola patients and the family and friends in close contact with Ebola patients are at the highest risk of getting sick because they may come in contact with infected blood or body fluids of sick patients.

So, you're telling me that those infected doctors licked their patients or had cuts that weren't covered with gloves? What?

HOW is this happening? Does anyone have a report in which the sick doctors explained their exact point of contracting the disease?

I'm starting to think it permeates healthy skin . . . Is that possible? OR were these doctors eating monkeys? WHAT is the real story?

Especially when I read this from the CDC:

Wash hands frequently or use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer.
Avoid contact with blood and body fluids of any person, particularly someone who is sick.
Do not handle items that may have come in contact with an infected person’s blood or body fluids.
Do not touch the body of someone who has died from Ebola.

iLander. They DON'T HAVE AN ADEQUATE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. Period. They are in the freaking JUNGLE. There is no conspiracy here. WHY is everyone SO ready to go there??

They are running out of sterile suits and gloves. And they are utterly exhausted, these foreign aid workers and doctors. They are undersupplied, in ghastly poor conditions, and they are making fatal mistakes. It's a recipe for disaster, no conspiracy required.

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/08/ebola-outbreak-boston-doctor

"One of the major ways to alleviate that would be the presence of more personal protective equipment and more sterile medical equipment in general. I know that the PPE — the personal protective equipment — is a major concern because there’s a dearth of it right now in the field.

Also, we understand that the virus can be transmitted from surfaces — so if someone comes into contact with bodily fluids with the virus in them on a surface, that’s another way to get it. The virus can live outside the host for a couple of days. So this contamination of the environment is another important component — and that’s very difficult if you can imagine 70 patients in a small space. Ebola is not hard to kill, so it’s easy to avoid contamination in general. It’s only because of the number of people and poor health infrastructure that it becomes difficult.

Still, it’s so baffling that these leading, incredibly knowledgable doctors are getting infected. How can that happen?

The number of patients plays a major role, and the lack of resources is a major concern. Also, here, when we train people to take care of patients with highly communicable infections, specifically Ebola and other hemorrhagic fevers, we always say that you can’t be in that heavy protective equipment for more than a short amount of time, and you can’t be on shift for more than four hours. And that’s with one patient, maybe. Now you have docs who are taking care of 40 patients and they’re doing it in seven-hour shifts or even longer. That could definitely contribute to infection among health care workers.

What’s it like to wear that protective equipment? Can it be compared to space suits?

What’s currently being used in the field is a full-body gown, masks, face shields, head covers, double gloves and then rubber boots with covering booties over them.

All this material is a barrier to any transmission of any fluids, but a lot of times it also, as you can imagine, blocks air exchange and it can get extremely hot, especially given the heat in the countries that we’re talking about. I’ve read accounts from some of the folks who are down there and you can get very dehydrated; you can lose a lot of your body fluids from being in that protective equipment for a long time."


http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/health/ebola-fatu-family/
This woman is using TRASHBAGS. Pretty clever and what a woman, but it underscores what they're dealing with.

 

[iLander]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

 

[Matata]

Here's an article stating protocol was not followed at the hospital where the man is currently being treated. Click on the "how the virus is spread" link in that article for more info. http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/01/health/ebola-us/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Two things that stand out in the article about how it's spread is that it can be transmitted via sweat after symptoms appear and that none of us can be assured that we do not have small breaks in the skin through which the virus can enter from contact with a symptomatic individual.

The scary statement in the how it's spread piece is:
While the CDC acknowledges it is possible for a person infected with Ebola in West Africa to get on a plane and arrive in another country -- which is apparently what happened in the U.S. case -- the chances of the virus spreading during the journey are low. That's unless your fellow passenger is bleeding, sweating profusely or vomiting on you, of course.
"It is highly unlikely that someone suffering such symptoms would feel well enough to travel," the International Air Transport Association said.

I don't believe that people who are terribly ill won't get on a plane. I've experienced it too many times with things such as colds and flu. Just this summer alone I travelled twice to Europe and on the return flights home there were people passing out on the planes from fevers and dehydration due to flu/colds. There are always going to be people who feel they need to get somewhere and will travel no matter how sick they are.

 

[ksinger]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

You really haven't been keeping up on this have you? And I don't say that to be mean. But the conditions there - mainly the cultural components of this disaster - have been done near to death in the press.

One picture of a city does not the whole picture make. This started in the bush, which is where it always has stayed before. Until now. And just because someone came to the big city, doesn't mean they are educated or cosmopolitan. Many of these people are horribly backwards by our standards. And jungle hospitals? Uh, I don't think so. An understaffed clinic perhaps, but hospitals? Not like you're thinking of. Africa is Africa. It AIN'T America.


There are almost nonexistent health infrastructures, sanitation as we think of it is not exactly a priority nor is it easy, access to clean water is a perennial problem, there is massive distrust of westerners, white people, fear of going to hospitals, beliefs in witchcraft, reliance on bushmeat(the known source of this crap, and which ought to tell you how poor these people are) and funeral practices that require touching the dead. Eight foreign aid workers were just murdered in cold blood and dumped in a latrine. Many of these people are bone-poor, suspicious, superstitious, and are RESISTING attempts to help them. They RUN AWAY from doctors and hospitals the first chance they get. It's just a perfect storm of crap conditions, irrational fear, and stupid. And the international community has been very slow to see the need to help, and so it has gotten way out of hand.

It's all there if you want to read about it. Go to the google.

 

[Trekkie]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

Thank you iLander for responding to ksinger more politely than I could have.

Jungle is defined as "an area of land overgrown with dense forest and overgrown vegetation, typically in the tropics".

The Ebola outbreak is not in the "jungle". What an incredibly disrespectful and ignorant term to use. I certainly would have expected more from one of my favourite posters, especially one as well educated as you, ksinger.

FWIW, the Ebola outbreaks across Africa are mostly in capital cities and medium-large towns, often near capital cities and national borders. Yes, water and sanitation are not on par with western standards but they're still pretty far away from what one would experience in the actual jungle.

While I still firmly believe that the US set a dangerous precedent by allowing those Americans to return, I am glad that they were saved and hope your medical community have learnt enough to help this person and stem the spread of the disease on American soil.

 

[Trekkie]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

You really haven't been keeping up on this have you? And I don't say that to be mean. But the conditions there - mainly the cultural components of this disaster - have been done near to death in the press.

One picture of a city does not the whole picture make. This started in the bush, which is where it always has stayed before. Until now. And just because someone came to the big city, doesn't mean they are educated or cosmopolitan. Many of these people are horribly backwards by our standards. And jungle hospitals? Uh, I don't think so. An understaffed clinic perhaps, but hospitals? Not like you're thinking of. Africa is Africa. It AIN'T America.


There are almost nonexistent health infrastructures, sanitation as we think of it is not exactly a priority nor is it easy, access to clean water is a perennial problem, there is massive distrust of westerners, white people, fear of going to hospitals, beliefs in witchcraft, reliance on bushmeat(the known source of this crap, and which ought to tell you how poor these people are) and funeral practices that require touching the dead. Eight foreign aid workers were just murdered in cold blood and dumped in a latrine. Many of these people are bone-poor, suspicious, superstitious, and are RESISTING attempts to help them. They RUN AWAY from doctors and hospitals the first chance they get. It's just a perfect storm of crap conditions, irrational fear, and stupid. And the international community has been very slow to see the need to help, and so it has gotten way out of hand.

It's all there if you want to read about it. Go to the google.

Wow. Some time on the internet and now you know aaaaall about us poor dumb Africans and our savage and uncivilised ways.

 

[iLander]

Jungle is defined as "an area of land overgrown with dense forest and overgrown vegetation, typically in the tropics".

The Ebola outbreak is not in the "jungle". What an incredibly disrespectful and ignorant term to use. I certainly would have expected more from one of my favourite posters, especially one as well educated as you, ksinger.

FWIW, the Ebola outbreaks across Africa are mostly in capital cities and medium-large towns, often near capital cities and national borders. Yes, water and sanitation are not on par with western standards but they're still pretty far away from what one would experience in the actual jungle.

While I still firmly believe that the US set a dangerous precedent by allowing those Americans to return, I am glad that they were saved and hope your medical community have learnt enough to help this person and stem the spread of the disease on American soil.

I would be interested to here more of your view of this, Trekkie. I think when most Americans think of Africa, they think of the "charity" commercials of poor children with big eyes and giant bellies, covered with flies, standing around in filth. I've long suspected that these charities are painting a picture of Africa, circa 1929. And that is all that most Americans know, because this type of commercial has been running for literally decades. Rarely does American TV show Africa's towns and cities full of cars, buses, skyscrapers, paving, Coca-Cola, etc. I think Americans want to distance themselves from the reality that a lot of this is happening in "civilized" places, and yes, indeed, this can happen here.

 

[ksinger]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

You really haven't been keeping up on this have you? And I don't say that to be mean. But the conditions there - mainly the cultural components of this disaster - have been done near to death in the press.

One picture of a city does not the whole picture make. This started in the bush, which is where it always has stayed before. Until now. And just because someone came to the big city, doesn't mean they are educated or cosmopolitan. Many of these people are horribly backwards by our standards. And jungle hospitals? Uh, I don't think so. An understaffed clinic perhaps, but hospitals? Not like you're thinking of. Africa is Africa. It AIN'T America.


There are almost nonexistent health infrastructures, sanitation as we think of it is not exactly a priority nor is it easy, access to clean water is a perennial problem, there is massive distrust of westerners, white people, fear of going to hospitals, beliefs in witchcraft, reliance on bushmeat(the known source of this crap, and which ought to tell you how poor these people are) and funeral practices that require touching the dead. Eight foreign aid workers were just murdered in cold blood and dumped in a latrine. Many of these people are bone-poor, suspicious, superstitious, and are RESISTING attempts to help them. They RUN AWAY from doctors and hospitals the first chance they get. It's just a perfect storm of crap conditions, irrational fear, and stupid. And the international community has been very slow to see the need to help, and so it has gotten way out of hand.

It's all there if you want to read about it. Go to the google.

Wow. Some time on the internet and now you know aaaaall about us poor dumb Africans and our savage and uncivilised ways.

I'm sorry you got your knickers in a twist. I don't always do nuance (yes, believe it or not I know that Liberia/Sierra Leone/Guinea NOT EQUAL "Africa", and that not all people in any country there are uneducated) or navigate the minefield of politically correct wording with great aplomb, especially when I'm exasperated by yet another attempt to make this a conspiracy. My use of the word "jungle" while apparently technically incorrect, is from my recollections of a show I watched on an ebola outbreak (Frontline probably) years ago, where they where using machetes to cut through the heavily forested BUSH to hunt the bushmeat that is the known endemic source of ebola.

So refute what I said then, and put me in my place. Nuance away and educate me. Tell me the real reasons it's out of control in the countries where it is. Heck, tell me that an international effort isn't even needed, and that no foreign aid worker or doctor has to lose their life to disease or murder by people who don't want the help, and that richer African countries will handle it. Please just don't tell me it's a conspiracy.

 

[Trekkie]

Jungle is defined as "an area of land overgrown with dense forest and overgrown vegetation, typically in the tropics".

The Ebola outbreak is not in the "jungle". What an incredibly disrespectful and ignorant term to use. I certainly would have expected more from one of my favourite posters, especially one as well educated as you, ksinger.

FWIW, the Ebola outbreaks across Africa are mostly in capital cities and medium-large towns, often near capital cities and national borders. Yes, water and sanitation are not on par with western standards but they're still pretty far away from what one would experience in the actual jungle.

While I still firmly believe that the US set a dangerous precedent by allowing those Americans to return, I am glad that they were saved and hope your medical community have learnt enough to help this person and stem the spread of the disease on American soil.

I would be interested to here more of your view of this, Trekkie. I think when most Americans think of Africa, they think of the "charity" commercials of poor children with big eyes and giant bellies, covered with flies, standing around in filth. I've long suspected that these charities are painting a picture of Africa, circa 1929. And that is all that most Americans know, because this type of commercial has been running for literally decades. Rarely does American TV show Africa's towns and cities full of cars, buses, skyscrapers, paving, Coca-Cola, etc. I think Americans want to distance themselves from the reality that a lot of this is happening in "civilized" places, and yes, indeed, this can happen here.

Thank you for asking, iLander. I can't pretend to be an expert but try my best to explain.

That picture of the starving African child is real, but it's not the only story.

First off, and I know this is going to sound stupid but we need to start here because it's easy to know this academically but not quite understand it intellectually (not directed at anyone in particular, just people in general): "Africa" is NOT a country - it's the world's second largest continent. I get annoyed when people make blanket statements about "Africa" as if what's true in one part of it is true in another. I can imagine that life, culture and customs in the US South are vastly different from life, culture and customs in New York or Idaho or Mexico or Montreal, yet all these places are in North America. North America has what, three languages? Yet it is diverse and everyone accepts and celebrates this.

Now imagine a continent with 55 countries (well, sort of, but that's another point for another day), each country having many languages and customs and cultures. In South Africa alone we have 11 official languages but there are at least 14 languages spoken here (other than the European languages brought by immigrants). Ethnic groups are generally divided along linguistic lines and have their own cultures and belief systems. For instance, Nelson Mandela was Xhosa, so no Xhosa complained when Barrack and co laughed and smiled at his memorial service - it was considered right and fitting because it was a celebration of Madiba's life and as such was meant to be a joyous occasion. Other African cultures (perhaps our Arab brethren in Morocco or Egypt?) may believe differently.

We have internet and iPhones and iPads and kindles and all sorts of electronics. BMW and Mercedes are so common they aren't really regarded as prestige vehicles - the wealthy drive Jaguar, Maserati, Ferrari and Lamborghini. We have world class universities with large numbers of international students. We have huge cities with skyscrapers and shopping malls with Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, Cartier etc. In the capital cities you will find private hospitals staffed by world leaders. These hospitals would rival anything in the US and people come from all over the world to see our specialists, at a fraction of the price they'd pay in their home countries. Drug and alcohol rehabilitation, and plastic surgery are particularly popular for Europeans and Americans.

Africa is also a continent of vast contrasts, so right outside these shopping malls and hospitals you'll find beggars who are quite literally starving. Travel a few kilometres and you'll end up in townships where poverty means going to bed hungry on a mattress on the floor of your tin shack; where wealth means being able to afford to send your child to a formerly "whites only" school an hour away, using often dangerous public transport, so that they have a chance at a better future than you did.

In South Africa our president has had four wives (not sure how many at last count - I've lost track), numerous fiancées and more than 25 children. This is considered appropriate for a Zulu man of his stature.

Now this is a very, very small glimpse of South Africa, one of the more developed countries in Africa.

Liberia is as different from South Africa as Canada is from Mexico, if not more so. Something to be remembered about Liberia is that a sizeable portion of the population comprises the descendants of freed American slaves. Over the years they received considerable financial aid from the US. These are not ignorant savages - many of them are highly educated (often educated in the US) and are the children and grandchildren of highly educated people.

Yes, there has been civil war and yes, Liberia also has less educated people with cultural values similar to what ksinger pointed out, but this is NOT the norm for the entire continent of Africa. What happens in Liberia is not necessarily the same as what happens in Sierra Leone or Nigeria or Guinea, all countries with confirmed outbreaks of Ebola.

If Ebola is a consequence of people eating bushmeat and kissing corpses and not having running water, why is it so prevalent in places where you don't find bushmeat, don't kiss corpses and do have clean running water?

Clearly there is some piece of the puzzle we are not seeing.

And while we buy into the myth that it's just some poor dumb Africans getting it because of poor hygiene and uncivilised cultural practices, we never will.

ksinger, I was quite rude in my previous post and I need to apologise for that. I get really wound up when people make blanket statements about Africa, particularly when they're sensationalised reports by western journalists who spend a few days in one part of an African town and then think they know everything about the continent.

 

[Trekkie]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

You really haven't been keeping up on this have you? And I don't say that to be mean. But the conditions there - mainly the cultural components of this disaster - have been done near to death in the press.

One picture of a city does not the whole picture make. This started in the bush, which is where it always has stayed before. Until now. And just because someone came to the big city, doesn't mean they are educated or cosmopolitan. Many of these people are horribly backwards by our standards. And jungle hospitals? Uh, I don't think so. An understaffed clinic perhaps, but hospitals? Not like you're thinking of. Africa is Africa. It AIN'T America.


There are almost nonexistent health infrastructures, sanitation as we think of it is not exactly a priority nor is it easy, access to clean water is a perennial problem, there is massive distrust of westerners, white people, fear of going to hospitals, beliefs in witchcraft, reliance on bushmeat(the known source of this crap, and which ought to tell you how poor these people are) and funeral practices that require touching the dead. Eight foreign aid workers were just murdered in cold blood and dumped in a latrine. Many of these people are bone-poor, suspicious, superstitious, and are RESISTING attempts to help them. They RUN AWAY from doctors and hospitals the first chance they get. It's just a perfect storm of crap conditions, irrational fear, and stupid. And the international community has been very slow to see the need to help, and so it has gotten way out of hand.

It's all there if you want to read about it. Go to the google.

Wow. Some time on the internet and now you know aaaaall about us poor dumb Africans and our savage and uncivilised ways.

I'm sorry you got your knickers in a twist. I don't always do nuance (yes, believe it or not I know that Liberia/Sierra Leone/Guinea NOT EQUAL "Africa", and that not all people in any country there are uneducated) or navigate the minefield of politically correct wording with great aplomb, especially when I'm exasperated by yet another attempt to make this a conspiracy. My use of the word "jungle" while apparently technically incorrect, is from my recollections of a show I watched on an ebola outbreak (Frontline probably) years ago, where they where using machetes to cut through the heavily forested BUSH to hunt the bushmeat that is the known endemic source of ebola.

So refute what I said then, and put me in my place. Nuance away and educate me. Tell me the real reasons it's out of control in the countries where it is. Heck, tell me that an international effort isn't even needed, and that no foreign aid worker or doctor has to lose their life to disease or murder by people who don't want the help, and that richer African countries will handle it. Please just don't tell me it's a conspiracy.

I'm lazy and posting from my phone in bed so didn't notice this until I'd already made my previous post.

Now who's getting her knickers in a bunch?

You may struggle with nuance - this is the internet after all. Perhaps you could have chosen your words a bit better.

I reacted the way I did because the words you used painted a picture very different from the Africa I know, lying here in bed on my 800 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets, typing away on my iPhone.

I have no idea what is causing the Ebola crisis but I welcome the international aid. Wealthy African countries are still dirt poor by the standards of the developed world and are they getting poorer each day because people in positions of power care more about lining their pockets than anything else.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do find myself wondering why the hell it is spreading even when people take precautions and I can only conclude that there's something we aren't seeing, some aspect of the transmission of disease that we don't yet understand. But hey, what do I know?

Anyway, whatever. Doesn't matter. Don't want to pick a fight. I already apologised for my tone.

It's past my bedtime, so good night!

 

[distracts]

Some of you all may remember I live in Dallas. What you don't know is that most in my family are doctors, and many of them epidemiologists. So this is a very exciting time for them.

Anyway, if there's an outbreak, I'll likely be the first PSer to succumb.

 

[yssie]

Jungle is defined as "an area of land overgrown with dense forest and overgrown vegetation, typically in the tropics".

The Ebola outbreak is not in the "jungle". What an incredibly disrespectful and ignorant term to use. I certainly would have expected more from one of my favourite posters, especially one as well educated as you, ksinger.

FWIW, the Ebola outbreaks across Africa are mostly in capital cities and medium-large towns, often near capital cities and national borders. Yes, water and sanitation are not on par with western standards but they're still pretty far away from what one would experience in the actual jungle.

While I still firmly believe that the US set a dangerous precedent by allowing those Americans to return, I am glad that they were saved and hope your medical community have learnt enough to help this person and stem the spread of the disease on American soil.

I would be interested to here more of your view of this, Trekkie. I think when most Americans think of Africa, they think of the "charity" commercials of poor children with big eyes and giant bellies, covered with flies, standing around in filth. I've long suspected that these charities are painting a picture of Africa, circa 1929. And that is all that most Americans know, because this type of commercial has been running for literally decades. Rarely does American TV show Africa's towns and cities full of cars, buses, skyscrapers, paving, Coca-Cola, etc. I think Americans want to distance themselves from the reality that a lot of this is happening in "civilized" places, and yes, indeed, this can happen here.

Thank you for asking, iLander. I can't pretend to be an expert but try my best to explain.

That picture of the starving African child is real, but it's not the only story.

First off, and I know this is going to sound stupid but we need to start here because it's easy to know this academically but not quite understand it intellectually (not directed at anyone in particular, just people in general): "Africa" is NOT a country - it's the world's second largest continent. I get annoyed when people make blanket statements about "Africa" as if what's true in one part of it is true in another. I can imagine that life, culture and customs in the US South are vastly different from life, culture and customs in New York or Idaho or Mexico or Montreal, yet all these places are in North America. North America has what, three languages? Yet it is diverse and everyone accepts and celebrates this.

Now imagine a continent with 55 countries (well, sort of, but that's another point for another day), each country having many languages and customs and cultures. In South Africa alone we have 11 official languages but there are at least 14 languages spoken here (other than the European languages brought by immigrants). Ethnic groups are generally divided along linguistic lines and have their own cultures and belief systems. For instance, Nelson Mandela was Xhosa, so no Xhosa complained when Barrack and co laughed and smiled at his memorial service - it was considered right and fitting because it was a celebration of Madiba's life and as such was meant to be a joyous occasion. Other African cultures (perhaps our Arab brethren in Morocco or Egypt?) may believe differently.

We have internet and iPhones and iPads and kindles and all sorts of electronics. BMW and Mercedes are so common they aren't really regarded as prestige vehicles - the wealthy drive Jaguar, Maserati, Ferrari and Lamborghini. We have world class universities with large numbers of international students. We have huge cities with skyscrapers and shopping malls with Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, Cartier etc. In the capital cities you will find private hospitals staffed by world leaders. These hospitals would rival anything in the US and people come from all over the world to see our specialists, at a fraction of the price they'd pay in their home countries. Drug and alcohol rehabilitation, and plastic surgery are particularly popular for Europeans and Americans.

Africa is also a continent of vast contrasts, so right outside these shopping malls and hospitals you'll find beggars who are quite literally starving. Travel a few kilometres and you'll end up in townships where poverty means going to bed hungry on a mattress on the floor of your tin shack; where wealth means being able to afford to send your child to a formerly "whites only" school an hour away, using often dangerous public transport, so that they have a chance at a better future than you did.

In South Africa our president has had four wives (not sure how many at last count - I've lost track), numerous fiancées and more than 25 children. This is considered appropriate for a Zulu man of his stature.

Now this is a very, very small glimpse of South Africa, one of the more developed countries in Africa.

Liberia is as different from South Africa as Canada is from Mexico, if not more so. Something to be remembered about Liberia is that a sizeable portion of the population comprises the descendants of freed American slaves. Over the years they received considerable financial aid from the US. These are not ignorant savages - many of them are highly educated (often educated in the US) and are the children and grandchildren of highly educated people.

Yes, there has been civil war and yes, Liberia also has less educated people with cultural values similar to what ksinger pointed out, but this is NOT the norm for the entire continent of Africa. What happens in Liberia is not necessarily the same as what happens in Sierra Leone or Nigeria or Guinea, all countries with confirmed outbreaks of Ebola.

If Ebola is a consequence of people eating bushmeat and kissing corpses and not having running water, why is it so prevalent in places where you don't find bushmeat, don't kiss corpses and do have clean running water?

Clearly there is some piece of the puzzle we are not seeing.

And while we buy into the myth that it's just some poor dumb Africans getting it because of poor hygiene and uncivilised cultural practices, we never will.

ksinger, I was quite rude in my previous post and I need to apologise for that. I get really wound up when people make blanket statements about Africa, particularly when they're sensationalised reports by western journalists who spend a few days in one part of an African town and then think they know everything about the continent.

Trekkie, thank you.

I don't have much to add to the discussion - I've been following but, as you note, most of what I'm seeing is sensationalised beyond reason - but I wanted to say that I really appreciated this post.

 

[ksinger]

VL: Thank you, that helps me understand. I can see that now, and it makes sense.

ksinger: Thank you for helping me understand. But why are they in the jungles? Why aren't they transported to medical facilities? Here is a picture of the capital of Liberia, Monrovia. Looks like they have running water there. Not trying to challenge you, just wondering . . .

And where are all the medical equipment suppliers, why aren't they stepping up to help supply the jungle hospitals? Where's Johnson and Johnson, "the family company" and all those other big corporations?

All this needless death is making me mad . . .

You really haven't been keeping up on this have you? And I don't say that to be mean. But the conditions there - mainly the cultural components of this disaster - have been done near to death in the press.

One picture of a city does not the whole picture make. This started in the bush, which is where it always has stayed before. Until now. And just because someone came to the big city, doesn't mean they are educated or cosmopolitan. Many of these people are horribly backwards by our standards. And jungle hospitals? Uh, I don't think so. An understaffed clinic perhaps, but hospitals? Not like you're thinking of. Africa is Africa. It AIN'T America.


There are almost nonexistent health infrastructures, sanitation as we think of it is not exactly a priority nor is it easy, access to clean water is a perennial problem, there is massive distrust of westerners, white people, fear of going to hospitals, beliefs in witchcraft, reliance on bushmeat(the known source of this crap, and which ought to tell you how poor these people are) and funeral practices that require touching the dead. Eight foreign aid workers were just murdered in cold blood and dumped in a latrine. Many of these people are bone-poor, suspicious, superstitious, and are RESISTING attempts to help them. They RUN AWAY from doctors and hospitals the first chance they get. It's just a perfect storm of crap conditions, irrational fear, and stupid. And the international community has been very slow to see the need to help, and so it has gotten way out of hand.

It's all there if you want to read about it. Go to the google.

Wow. Some time on the internet and now you know aaaaall about us poor dumb Africans and our savage and uncivilised ways.

I'm sorry you got your knickers in a twist. I don't always do nuance (yes, believe it or not I know that Liberia/Sierra Leone/Guinea NOT EQUAL "Africa", and that not all people in any country there are uneducated) or navigate the minefield of politically correct wording with great aplomb, especially when I'm exasperated by yet another attempt to make this a conspiracy. My use of the word "jungle" while apparently technically incorrect, is from my recollections of a show I watched on an ebola outbreak (Frontline probably) years ago, where they where using machetes to cut through the heavily forested BUSH to hunt the bushmeat that is the known endemic source of ebola.

So refute what I said then, and put me in my place. Nuance away and educate me. Tell me the real reasons it's out of control in the countries where it is. Heck, tell me that an international effort isn't even needed, and that no foreign aid worker or doctor has to lose their life to disease or murder by people who don't want the help, and that richer African countries will handle it. Please just don't tell me it's a conspiracy.

I'm lazy and posting from my phone in bed so didn't notice this until I'd already made my previous post.

Now who's getting her knickers in a bunch?

You may struggle with nuance - this is the internet after all. Perhaps you could have chosen your words a bit better.

I reacted the way I did because the words you used painted a picture very different from the Africa I know, lying here in bed on my 800 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets, typing away on my iPhone.

I have no idea what is causing the Ebola crisis but I welcome the international aid. Wealthy African countries are still dirt poor by the standards of the developed world and are they getting poorer each day because people in positions of power care more about lining their pockets than anything else.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I do find myself wondering why the hell it is spreading even when people take precautions and I can only conclude that there's something we aren't seeing, some aspect of the transmission of disease that we don't yet understand. But hey, what do I know?

Anyway, whatever. Doesn't matter. Don't want to pick a fight. I already apologised for my tone.

It's past my bedtime, so good night!

Well, for whatever it might be worth Trekkie, I apologize too because I too understand having one's hackles up at something one identifies with and where the poster is clearly generalizing a bit too much.

However, as someone who lives in a red state where as often as not people vote against their own interests and it's becoming more medieval/feudal by the day, I usually can't refute the dismal statistics that characterize MY state (education/health/incarceration rate/poverty) or "the south" in general. I have even read people on PS wish that we could be tossed from the US, so yeah, I do understand. So I bristle while at the same time I cringe and remind myself that I shouldn't take it too personally. (I have 100% Egyptian cotton percales myself. )

The fact remains, it is pretty easy to understand how things have gotten so out of control, if even a relatively small proportion of the populations in the affected countries are as I have unflatteringly characterized them, AND the health infrastructure is so poor. It started in "the provices" if you will, and now that it's moved to the cities, with the mobility of urban areas, it has only gotten harder to contain. And people ARE resisting, and it only takes a few like that to make a problem nearly intractable. Look at the damage done by a pretty small group of mostly well-heeled and supposedly well-educated idiots who have been refusing to have their children vaccinated here in the US. Now we're dealing with larger and larger measles and whooping cough outbreaks. Gah! Drives me nuts.

Here is a 30 minute Frontline piece anyone interested might want to watch. It is current, as in this outbreak, although I think it was filmed back in the summer. It shows infrastructure AND human reaction in an urban area. It's a good overview.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ebola-outbreak/

The old film I said I saw was (I think) this old Nova, called "Ebola: The Plague Fighters".

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/183508/EBOLA__THE_PLAGUE_FIGHTERS_NOVA_Discovery_Science_History_documentary/

 

[iLander]

Thank you for asking, iLander. I can't pretend to be an expert but try my best to explain.

That picture of the starving African child is real, but it's not the only story.

If Ebola is a consequence of people eating bushmeat and kissing corpses and not having running water, why is it so prevalent in places where you don't find bushmeat, don't kiss corpses and do have clean running water?

Clearly there is some piece of the puzzle we are not seeing.

And while we buy into the myth that it's just some poor dumb Africans getting it because of poor hygiene and uncivilised cultural practices, we never will. .

THIS is exactly my point!

I hope everyone reading this thread will read your post, Trekkie.

Africa, and many of it's countries, are as "civilized" as we are! Why so much ebola, so fast?

 

[iLander]

Well, for whatever it might be worth Trekkie, I apologize too because I too understand having one's hackles up at something one identifies with and where the poster is clearly generalizing a bit too much.

I don't think there's a conspiracy, per se. But I think there are tendencies to see Africa's countries as backwards, and behind the times. I believe the mainstream Press is generalizing, because digging deeper is hard work.

And I think the CDC does have a mandate to keep us calm. I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I DO believe it's their job.

I think there is something missing in this puzzle, and if there is a possibility of the virus being aerosolized, as VL suggested, then I think they should tell us that. That would explain a lot. There was an article a while back, in a UK paper (which I can't find), about an experiment with pigs living next to monkeys with ebola. No contact of liquids occurred, but the pigs did develop ebola. It was concluded that it was from aerosolization of virus.

I also think that medical science is imperfect, evolving, and it takes time to catch up with facts. I'm pretty sure any medical researcher will agree with me, on this fast-moving, ever-breaking story.

Do I think the medical community is in a vast conspiracy? Heck, no. Never said that.

 

[ksinger]

Well, for whatever it might be worth Trekkie, I apologize too because I too understand having one's hackles up at something one identifies with and where the poster is clearly generalizing a bit too much.

I don't think there's a conspiracy, per se. But I think there are tendencies to see Africa's countries as backwards, and behind the times. I believe the mainstream Press is generalizing, because digging deeper is hard work.

And I think the CDC does have a mandate to keep us calm. I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I DO believe it's their job.

I think there is something missing in this puzzle, and if there is a possibility of the virus being aerosolized, as VL suggested, then I think they should tell us that. That would explain a lot. There was an article a while back, in a UK paper (which I can't find), about an experiment with pigs living next to monkeys with ebola. No contact of liquids occurred, but the pigs did develop ebola. It was concluded that it was from aerosolization of virus.

I also think that medical science is imperfect, evolving, and it takes time to catch up with facts. I'm pretty sure any medical researcher will agree with me, on this fast-moving, ever-breaking story.

Do I think the medical community is in a vast conspiracy? Heck, no. Never said that.

Watch the Frontline piece. I'm sorry if someone gets upset about what appear to be unflattering
FACTS, but facts they are. These African countries where this is happening are some of the poorest in the world, and they have in scads, all the problems that that level of poverty brings. There is zero mystery to this. ZERO.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

 

[iLander]

Watch the Frontline piece. I'm sorry if someone gets upset about what appear to be unflattering
FACTS, but facts they are. These African countries where this is happening are some of the poorest in the world, and they have in scads, all the problems that that level of poverty brings. There is zero mystery to this. ZERO.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

I'm still not sold they're giving a full picture. There are many areas where they have iPhones and better sheets than mine. If the press only focuses on a small part, how will we see the whole picture?

It is like the story of 5 blind men describing an elephant. The one holding the tail says "An elephant is snakelike and very thin". The second blind man, touching the side says "An elephant is large and flat, very rough". It goes on, but you get the idea. By focusing on one part of the story, the press is missing something.

I agree with your point that it travels quickly in poor sanitary conditions. Agreed. But it also moving through town and cities where they wash their hands and play Tetris on their computers. I'm only asking why.

 

[lyra]

Maybe look at the simpler facts. In North America, there are how many doctors per patient in any given hospital? In any given major metropolitan hospital? How many nurses?

In places like Liberia, it is estimated that the ratio is something like 1 doctor: 28,000 patients. Not a conspiracy. Just a lack of infrastructure, medical staff and supplies. It is out of hand.

North America is far more able to handle a serious ebola outbreak than the countries in Africa that are in the midst of this outbreak. It is almost inevitable that any virus can spread to other countries nowadays, with air travel being what it is. We are lucky that in our countries, we have the health care infrastructure and level of staffing that some other countries just can't get.

 

[packrat]

m-o-o-n spells ebola laws yes!

 

[lyra]

m-o-o-n spells ebola laws yes!

LOL! My favourite book.

 

[arkieb1]

This is a good article demonstrating it's not what they are not telling us but a lack of resources creating more problems;

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4094169.htm

 

[kenny]

The Director of Dallas County health department today said we may have Ebola patient #2 ...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/01/texas-ebola-patient/16525649/

DALLAS — Health officials are closely monitoring a possible second Ebola patient who had close contact with the first person to be diagnosed in the U.S., the director of Dallas County's health department said Wednesday.

All who have been in close contact with the man officially diagnosed are being monitored as a precaution, Zachary Thompson, director of Dallas County Health and Human Services, said in a morning interview with WFAA-TV, Dallas-Fort Worth.

"Let me be real frank to the Dallas County residents: The fact that we have one confirmed case, there may be another case that is a close associate with this particular patient," he said. "So this is real. There should be a concern, but it's contained to the specific family members and close friends at this moment."

 

[arkieb1]

I hope this isn't too crude but I was thinking when they announced the first guy lets hope he didn't get off the plane and have sex with a heap of people otherwise there are going to be a lot more....

 

[Trekkie]

Yssie - Hi and thanks for the comment! IIRC, you also have ties to a country with developing and developed infrastructure cheek by jowl, so I bet you know what I mean I wish you would comment more frequently! We miss you!

Ksinger and iLander - Africa is very diverse, so you'll have people like me - iPhones, nice sheets (ksinger - aren't Egyptian cotton just the BEST?! ) and educated in matters of hygiene. Unfortunately that's not typical.

I hope this isn't too crude but I was thinking when they announced the first guy lets hope he didn't get off the plane and have sex with a heap of people otherwise there are going to be a lot more....

arkieb1, I wouldn't be surprised if this person travelled to America because he suspected that he was infected and is hoping for better medical care than he'd get back in Liberia.

In 1996 a person who knew he was infected came to South Africa for medical treatment. He survived, but infected one of the nurses and she died.

 

[distracts]

I hope this isn't too crude but I was thinking when they announced the first guy lets hope he didn't get off the plane and have sex with a heap of people otherwise there are going to be a lot more....

DID YOU KNOW ebola can last in the semen up to three months after it's not transmissible from any other bodily fluid?

FUN FACTS.

Please ask all sexual partners if they have had ebola in the last four months; better safe than sorry.