I live in a warzone. Oh wait, no, I'm in St. Louis.

[kathley]

I speak up about this because I want to be heard that its not only people of color or men that can get on the wrong side of the police.

Policing in this country has got to change. I want the police to be as safe and I want the public to be able to count on a basic level of safety when in the presence of law enforcement.

Several years back, there was a billboard prominently displayed that said: St. Louis County Police – The Proud Ones. It showed a picture of a police officer. Well that particular police officer was found guilty of pulling over cars with young white couples. He would pull the white man out of the car and hand cuff him to the car while he proceeded to rape the woman. Needless to say, the billboard was finally taken down.

Two questions:
So what does the “To Serve & Protect” motto on their shirts mean?
And why is my tax dollars going to the salaries of some unscrupulous police?

 

[kenny]

What's happening in Fersuson is exactly what the NRA has been screaming its head off about for years ... heavily-armed government/police/national guard run amok against unarmed citizens.

But of course since whites are not the victims the NRA is shamefully quiet.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/19/why-isn-t-the-nra-defending-ferguson-s-blacks.html

 

[AGBF]

Several years back, there was a billboard prominently displayed that said: St. Louis County Police – The Proud Ones. It showed a picture of a police officer. Well that particular police officer was found guilty of pulling over cars with young white couples. He would pull the white man out of the car and hand cuff him to the car while he proceeded to rape the woman. Needless to say, the billboard was finally taken down.

He was found guilty of rape? Is he doing prison time/did he do prison time for the crime(s)? Do you have any more information on this so I can look it up? Thank you.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

What's happening in Fersuson is exactly what the NRA has been screaming its head off about for years ... heavily-armed government/police/national guard run amok against unarmed citizens.

But of course since whites are not the victims the NRA is shamefully quiet.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/19/why-isn-t-the-nra-defending-ferguson-s-blacks.html

a: no matter what they said they would get creamed by the press.
b: they have a policy of not commenting on open criminal cases
c: frankly the looting is killing any support
d: they take weeks to do anything, if they were to comment it would be in 2-3 weeks.
e: The are the largest trainers of police firearms instructors in the world.
f: It is likely that every police firearms instructor in the US is NRA certified or has NRA training or been trained by an NRA trained instructor.
g: they have very close ties to law enforcement until you get to the politically appointed level.

I know many African-American NRA members and used to shoot with a group that was 50%/10%/40% white/other/black when I could afford to go shooting a lot. They were also about 20% female.

 

[ame]

I've been to Youngstown. I lived just across the PA border briefly when I moved out there as my ex's family lived in Ellwood City. Til my apartment closer to Pgh was ready for grad school I lived there. Youngstown was the closest "major shopping" to the area. I fail to see your point in overblowing the crime in that area to compare it to what's happening here or justify saying that all African Americans behave in the manner you may have experienced once in your lifetime. Yknow white people steal and vandalize and kill too right?

Further, I don't feel African Americans have ever really been given the equal rights. Just like I don't feel women have. If that were the case there wouldn't be a pay gap and there wouldn't be a clear disparity in how black Americans are treated vs white.

And yes I HAVE been in Ferguson demonstrating. What's your excuse?

 

[azstonie]

I don't own a gun, have never held a gun, and an enormous police officer had me running in fear to my house. He didn't care what my color was (not sure if my being female was part of the equation here) and he could have cared less that I am a respected teacher in this city. He was going to administer a beat down and that was all he knew. I completely relate to people of color or any other disadvantaged population when it comes to being at the mercy of the police.

 

[azstonie]

I've been to Youngstown. I lived just across the PA border briefly when I moved out there as my ex's family lived in Ellwood City. Til my apartment closer to Pgh was ready for grad school I lived there. Youngstown was the closest "major shopping" to the area. I fail to see your point in overblowing the crime in that area to compare it to what's happening here or justify saying that all African Americans behave in the manner you may have experienced once in your lifetime. Yknow white people steal and vandalize and kill too right?

Further, I don't feel African Americans have ever really been given the equal rights. Just like I don't feel women have. If that were the case there wouldn't be a pay gap and there wouldn't be a clear disparity in how black Americans are treated vs white.

And yes I HAVE been in Ferguson demonstrating. What's your excuse?

Ame, I have not been to Ferguson to demonstrate because I'm afraid. I admit it. I'm now very afraid of the police. I donate large to the ACLU and have since I had my first job out of college. I taught in the very sought after schools in CA and after 7 years I spent several years teaching high school felons who wanted a high school diploma. I volunteer now for adult literacy. Because I know that life is deeply unfair for most people, who are screwed from the start. I'm 55 years old and when I was in junior high I had the realization that America is not the meritocracy as we were being lied to regarding. I've conducted myself accordingly since. I assume most people have endured suffering not of their own devices.

 

[kathley]

Several years back, there was a billboard prominently displayed that said: St. Louis County Police – The Proud Ones. It showed a picture of a police officer. Well that particular police officer was found guilty of pulling over cars with young white couples. He would pull the white man out of the car and hand cuff him to the car while he proceeded to rape the woman. Needless to say, the billboard was finally taken down.

He was found guilty of rape? Is he doing prison time/did he do prison time for the crime(s)? Do you have any more information on this so I can look it up? Thank you.

Deb/AGBF

From what everyone was told, he was found guilty of rape and went to prison. I am trying to look him up to get more info. There was such an uproar at the time, that I am thinking Ame might have heard of this as well and saw the billboard.

 

[movie zombie]

........ I assume most people have endured suffering not of their own devices.

yep.

 

[AGBF]

This arrest took place today. Notice the policeman in military garb with a subdued "suspect" pointing his rifle at him. This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given. Giving him that rifle is like giving a rifle to a child-a male child full of testosterone- and letting him loose on the street to play.

AGBF

 

[ksinger]

This arrest took place today. Notice the policeman in military garb with a subdued "suspect" pointing his rifle at him. This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given. Giving him that rifle is like giving a rifle to a child-a male child full of testosterone- and letting him loose on the street to play.

AGBF

OK, I'm not going to comment on the right vs wrong of that picture because it has no backstory (I've not read about that incident and don't have time to dig for it, if it's even anything more than a picture) and is completely out of context (something that we usually decry in some of the more out-there media, yes?), but seriously? You can tell all that simply from that picture? He's untrained and high on testosterone and like a child? I think you're stretching a bit with that "analysis".

 

[OreoRosies86]

Interesting perspective.
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/reflecting-on-the-tragedy-in-ferguson-im-tired-of-people-like-you-mr-granderson/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons

 

[ame]

Several years back, there was a billboard prominently displayed that said: St. Louis County Police – The Proud Ones. It showed a picture of a police officer. Well that particular police officer was found guilty of pulling over cars with young white couples. He would pull the white man out of the car and hand cuff him to the car while he proceeded to rape the woman. Needless to say, the billboard was finally taken down.

He was found guilty of rape? Is he doing prison time/did he do prison time for the crime(s)? Do you have any more information on this so I can look it up? Thank you.

Deb/AGBF

From what everyone was told, he was found guilty of rape and went to prison. I am trying to look him up to get more info. There was such an uproar at the time, that I am thinking Ame might have heard of this as well and saw the billboard.

I remember that one well, that billboard was EVERYWHERE. But he's not the only case like that around here. But unfortunately that stuff is well hidden from the public. I also remember the guy from last year that was touched on in John Oliver as well, because that was literally in my neck of the woods and it pissed me off to no end that he got away with that for so long. It's such a huge problem around here. Systemic.

 

[ksinger]

OK, this should be amusing but it is SO biting and addresses so many issues that it's hard to know how to react...

How we'd cover Ferguson if it happened in another country
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/15/6005587/ferguson-satire-another-country-russia-china

 

[AGBF]

This arrest took place today. Notice the policeman in military garb with a subdued "suspect" pointing his rifle at him. This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given. Giving him that rifle is like giving a rifle to a child-a male child full of testosterone- and letting him loose on the street to play.

OK, I'm not going to comment on the right vs wrong of that picture because it has no backstory (I've not read about that incident and don't have time to dig for it, if it's even anything more than a picture) and is completely out of context (something that we usually decry in some of the more out-there media, yes?), but seriously? You can tell all that simply from that picture? He's untrained and high on testosterone and like a child? I think you're stretching a bit with that "analysis".

Please do not misquote me. All I said, derived from the picture alone, and which I stand by is: This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given..

Men trained to use rifles, as men from our armed forces opposed to arming the US police have been quoted as saying ad nauseum, do not point them at people unless they intend to pull the trigger.

AGBF

 

[movie zombie]

a responsible gun owner is never supposed to "brandish" their weapon.
a weapon is only drawn and pointed if meant to be used.
police should not be held to a different standard.

 

[ksinger]

This arrest took place today. Notice the policeman in military garb with a subdued "suspect" pointing his rifle at him. This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given. Giving him that rifle is like giving a rifle to a child-a male child full of testosterone- and letting him loose on the street to play.

OK, I'm not going to comment on the right vs wrong of that picture because it has no backstory (I've not read about that incident and don't have time to dig for it, if it's even anything more than a picture) and is completely out of context (something that we usually decry in some of the more out-there media, yes?), but seriously? You can tell all that simply from that picture? He's untrained and high on testosterone and like a child? I think you're stretching a bit with that "analysis".

Please do not misquote me. All I said, derived from the picture alone, and which I stand by is: This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given..

Men trained to use rifles, as men from our armed forces opposed to arming the US police have been quoted as saying ad nauseum, do not point them at people unless they intend to pull the trigger.

AGBF

Obvious to you perhaps, but to me, it is NOT obvious that he is pointing it AT the person on the ground. From the angle of the photo (I suggest reading up on parallax), he could be pointing it beyond him AT the ground itself. The shadow of the gun barrel also suggests that too. So "obvious" is up for debate.

In any case, there are too many emotion-laden value judgements in your analysis of that picture for it to add much to the conversation. I doubt seriously you are qualified to comment on what what weapons training the man has actually had, and certainly not on the basis of a single photo. I certainly am not, and I suspect I've handled more guns than you in my life. That officer may indeed by a dyed-in-the-wool a$$hole of epic proportions, but giving him a gun would not MAKE him any way at all. He might already BE like a "male child full of testosterone....loose on the street to play.", but a gun won't make him so any more than handing a gun to you would make YOU a certain way, and even if it did, you sure as hell can't tell that from a single picture. God help us all if a man's whole character and story - even a man I may be predisposed to dislike - is to now be inferred from a single snapshot on the internet. Isn't that what happens every time the media puts up pictures of young black men in hoodies to scare the white folk predisposed to believe all black people are criminals? When you do that, you become part of the problem. SURELY on that basis of your photo alone it's OBVIOUS the officer is in the wrong. SURELY on the basis of the photo back up the thread of the black guys hanging out of the car, it's OBVIOUS they are up to no good and are probably criminals deserving whatever they get.

Right.

 

[star sparkle]

Please do not misquote me. All I said, derived from the picture alone, and which I stand by is: This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given..

Men trained to use rifles, as men from our armed forces opposed to arming the US police have been quoted as saying ad nauseum, do not point them at people unless they intend to pull the trigger.

AGBF

I've stayed out of this conversation for so long, but the photo posted above and the "expert" commentary as provided above really just make me shake my head. A few points -

a) That's not a rifle.
2) It's not even pointed *at* the person, it's pointed at the ground to the side of him.
iii) I must be an idiot, because what is so obvious to you seems blatantly wrong to me. I'd say this officer is trained very well, actually, because his finger isn't on the trigger and that's one of the most important rules of handling a firearm (keeping your finger off the trigger until/unless you're ready to shoot).


But I'm part of the evil law enforcement community, so take my observations with a grain of salt.

 

[ksinger]

Please do not misquote me. All I said, derived from the picture alone, and which I stand by is: This policeman has obviously never been trained to handle the weapon he has been given..

Men trained to use rifles, as men from our armed forces opposed to arming the US police have been quoted as saying ad nauseum, do not point them at people unless they intend to pull the trigger.

AGBF

I've stayed out of this conversation for so long, but the photo posted above and the "expert" commentary as provided above really just make me shake my head. A few points -

a) That's not a rifle.
2) It's not even pointed *at* the person, it's pointed at the ground to the side of him.
iii) I must be an idiot, because what is so obvious to you seems blatantly wrong to me. I'd say this officer is trained very well, actually, because his finger isn't on the trigger and that's one of the most important rules of handling a firearm (keeping your finger off the trigger until/unless you're ready to shoot).


But I'm part of the evil law enforcement community, so take my observations with a grain of salt.

Yeah, I was not sure what that gun was, but it doesn't look rifle-y to me. It looks more like a shotgun of some sort. But then I'm not the I-can-name-that-gun-in-.02566-of-a-second-flash person in our house. That would be my erstwhile gun-selling husband. (erstwhile on the gun-selling, not the husband part)

Since he's not around right now, what IS that thing anyway?

 

[AGBF]

In any case, there are too many emotion-laden value judgements in your analysis of that picture for it to add much to the conversation.

When you are right, you are right, and so was star sparkle about my gun analysis. I do not know anything about guns. I should have left that photo out of the discussion. It made me angry and I got carried away by emotion. But I do not believe that my fundamental belief is wrong: that the police should not be militarized. And I do hate to see the police dressed like members of the armed forces.

AGBF

 

[Dancing Fire]

Interesting perspective.
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/reflecting-on-the-tragedy-in-ferguson-im-tired-of-people-like-you-mr-granderson/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons

According to the latest full-year FBI crime statistics compilation, 2,648 black Americans were murdered in the 2012 calendar year. Here’s the shocker: of the 2,648 black murder victims, 2,412 were murdered by a member of their own race. Just 193 of the killings were perpetrated by a white person. (Incidentally, in the same year, 480 more white Americans were murdered than black Americans.)

We won't hear the mainstream media talking about these statistics... Remember, it is OK for black Americans to kill black Americans.

 

[AGBF]

But I'm part of the evil law enforcement community, so take my observations with a grain of salt.

I wrote, above, that I love my local police. But they do not brandish weapons and drive tanks through my streets. If you are like the police in my town, I would not consider you, "evil". If you are driving a tank through my town, I would wonder why anyone had paid your salary out of my taxes.

AGBF

 

[star sparkle]

Yeah, I was not sure what that gun was, but it doesn't look rifle-y to me. It looks more like a shotgun of some sort. But then I'm not the I-can-name-that-gun-in-.02566-of-a-second-flash person in our house. That would be my erstwhile gun-selling husband. (erstwhile on the gun-selling, not the husband part)

Since he's not around right now, what IS that thing anyway?

It looks like a shotgun to me, and my experience would say that it's a Remington 870P. Hard to tell for sure from the angle of the photo, but I'd bet that's what it is.

(And pssst, everyone, guess what? I'd also say with about 80% certainty that there isn't even a slug fully loaded in that chamber. Only 80% because I don't know what circumstances were that led to the pictured scenario and what transpired right before, but most tactical teams are trained in a way that would require the officer to actively chamber a slug before being able to shoot it. This cuts down on accidental shootings and requires a greater presence of mind before firing than just randomly pulling the trigger.)

 

[AGBF]

We won't hear the mainstream media talking about these statistics... Remember, it is OK for black Americans to kill black Americans.

What is your agenda here, Dancing Fire? Do you simply want to denigrate black people or is there something I am missing?

Deb

 

[star sparkle]

I wrote, above, that I love my local police. But they do not brandish weapons and drive tanks through my streets. If you are like the police in my town, I would not consider you, "evil". If you are driving a tank through my town, I would wonder why anyone had paid your salary out of my taxes.

AGBF

Those "tanks" you refer to have zero to do with what everyone is referring to as the "militarization" of the police. I know it may be difficult for you (the general non-LE collective "you," not you specifically) to fathom, but when LE has to go into dangerous situations - say, for instance, an operation targeting the arrest of known gang members who have an entire arsenal of automatic assault weapons - the preferred method of arrival and staging is in a vehicle that can withstand abuse and potential shots fired. It allows LE to go into situations that would otherwise be next to impossible to safely maneuver otherwise and because of it, many more bad guys are able to be taken off the streets.

But I am fully able to understand and appreciate why most of you don't understand what that's like because until you've experienced it for yourself, you just have no idea. Like packrat said earlier, there's no use in showing up to a gunfight with a knife.

 

[packrat]

Might be wanting that tank should the shit hit the fan and we've reduced our law enforcement to pointing fingers and saying pew pew pew bang I got you steven! Lay down! Dangit no fair! No! No! You can't get ME cuz I got YOU!!! (Dressed in...lederhosen and suspenders? Flip flops and shorts w/a collared Izod shirt, collar flipped up for the coolness factor?) and the gangs have over run us and drugs are out of control and there's a hostage situation where the bad guys have weapons that go thru squad vehicles..but yeah totally, pew pew pew, oh crap you have real bullets.

GOH I forgot. We'll end gun violence by banning guns, so the bad guys won't have guns. Cuz deep down they're softies and will not obtain them illegally, just circumstances force them to become criminals so....hey, we'll all be even stevens! Whoever has the biggest rock to throw, wins.

And see, now that all of us who are not officers, have no officers in the family, have no friends who are officers, and have no LE training ourselves, know exactly what every LEO is up against in every department nationwide, we all can get this solved. Because we've all seen the pictures, so we all know what's going on everywhere, to the letter. Experts!

My definition of rabid isn't maybe what everyone else's is? A rabid group of people, I don't consider that a group of people willing to talk about things, come to conclusions, find answers, look for reasons. Rabid to me is: a : extremely violent : furious
b : going to extreme lengths in expressing or pursuing a feeling, interest, or opinion <rabid editorials> <a rabid supporter>
Synonyms- extremist, fanatic (or fanatical), extreme, radical, revolutionary, revolutionist, ultra Rabid to me is the zombies but they're not from I am Legend, not Will Smith finding a cure. Maybe he has a rabid hunger to find the cure? I'd buy that.

Is a rabid public really going to diffuse this situation? Rabid to me, puts in my head taking control of a plane and crashing it into a building to prove your point. Not standing up and saying Hey there's a problem here, what's going on and how do we fix it?

 

[Dancing Fire]

We won't hear the mainstream media talking about these statistics... Remember, it is OK for black Americans to kill black Americans.

What is your agenda here, Dancing Fire? Do you simply want to denigrate black people or is there something I am missing?

Deb

I wanted to see leaders like Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to go to Chicago/NYC and talk to the young black Americans about stop killing each other.

 

[ksinger]

I wrote, above, that I love my local police. But they do not brandish weapons and drive tanks through my streets. If you are like the police in my town, I would not consider you, "evil". If you are driving a tank through my town, I would wonder why anyone had paid your salary out of my taxes.

AGBF

Those "tanks" you refer to have zero to do with what everyone is referring to as the "militarization" of the police. I know it may be difficult for you (the general non-LE collective "you," not you specifically) to fathom, but when LE has to go into dangerous situations - say, for instance, an operation targeting the arrest of known gang members who have an entire arsenal of automatic assault weapons - the preferred method of arrival and staging is in a vehicle that can withstand abuse and potential shots fired. It allows LE to go into situations that would otherwise be next to impossible to safely maneuver otherwise and because of it, many more bad guys are able to be taken off the streets.

But I am fully able to understand and appreciate why most of you don't understand what that's like because until you've experienced it for yourself, you just have no idea. Like packrat said earlier, there's no use in showing up to a gunfight with a knife.

And I would reply that you also don't use a bazooka to slap a mosquito. And in some cases, we may be talking a literal bazooka...

Even the inexperienced can understand this...and look on it with justified alarm.

Comments?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/how-the-war-on-terror-has-militarized-the-police/248047/

 

[Karl_K]

Yea its a shotgun and its clear from the pic he is in the process of moving when it was taken.
There are plenty of pics of poor gun handling by the police but that isn't one.
Finger off the trigger and pointed at the ground beside the person being cuffed.

 

[star sparkle]

And I would reply that you also don't use a bazooka to slap a mosquito. And in some cases, we may be talking a literal bazooka...

Even the inexperienced can understand this...and look on it with justified alarm.

Comments?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/how-the-war-on-terror-has-militarized-the-police/248047/

Comments on what, specifically? The incident that was discussed at the beginning of the article? Or the "militarization" theory?

Yes, police forces are probably equipped differently than they have been in the past. However, our suspects are ALSO equipped differently than they have been in the past. I see the phenomenon of LE acquiring different weapons, tactical vehicles, etc as adaptation to various threats. The child predator of today has different, more sophisticated methods of finding/harming victims than the child predator of 20 years ago. Likewise, the gangsters and terrorists of today have more sophisticated weaponry than the gangsters and terrorists in the pre-9/11 world. Seems that LE would be at a huge disadvantage if the bad guys are continuously upgrading and adapting their methods if LE were to just plod along using outdated methods and equipment.

And again, law enforcement in the U.S. is NOTHING like the military. My DH was in the military and was deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan, and he's also now a law enforcement officer. Amongst all this talk of the "militarization" of the police I asked him if there's any comparison that can be made, and he literally laughed at me.

ETA--regarding the tactical clothing that so many seem to disapprove of - from personal experience, it's much more comfortable and convenient to wear that stuff. Mainly for the pockets (ever tried to carry a purse in the middle of executing a search/arrest warrant? Yeah, it doesn't work very well), and the ease of movement. It's much easier to bend down and look under things (beds, tables), crawl into attics or other tight spaces, etc. in pants/clothing that moves rather than stiff jeans and oxford shirts.