Grammar help please

[kenny]

Should historical be preceded by a or an?

 

[justginger]

The "h" is pronounced, unlike in 'hour', so it should be 'a' instead of 'an.' It's only 'an' if the next sound is that of a vowel, right?

In Australia it's 'a herb garden' because they pronounce the hard 'h', in the US it's 'an herb garden' because the 'h' is silent.

I've never heard the 'h' of 'historical' as silent.

 

[monarch64]

I've heard it both ways, so I always assumed it was a preference. But I did a little googling and found a pretty good article:

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/a-versus-an

These things are always fascinating!

 

[katharath]

That's a good question, Kenny! I know that I've always heard both, but I never stopped to think about which was correct. Here's an interesting blurb about it that I just found:

http://www.grammarunderground.com/an-historic-vs-a-historic.html

 

[VRBeauty]

"a" because the "h" is aspirated. However, the NPR style book seems to require "an historical"... drives me crazy!


ETA - katharath - very interesting! Thank you!

 

[LLJsmom]

I definitely agree with the posters who say "a".

In "historical", the "h" sound is a hard h. Thus it should be preceded by "a".

Just gotta say my pet peeve is when people use "So and so and I" every time they talk about themselves in a sentence.

Correct:
"Catherine and I" went to the movies.

Correct:
John gave Catherine and me gifts.

INCORRECT!!!
John gave Catherine and I gifts.

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack and thank you for letting me vent Kenny.

 

[sonnyjane]

"a" unless you live somewhere that pronounces it "istorical".

 

[LaraOnline]

The "h" is pronounced, unlike in 'hour', so it should be 'a' instead of 'an.' It's only 'an' if the next sound is that of a vowel, right?

In Australia it's 'a herb garden' because they pronounce the hard 'h', in the US it's 'an herb garden' because the 'h' is silent.

I've never heard the 'h' of 'historical' as silent.

Well I'm an aussie, and I voted 'an' as correct.

 

[justginger]

The "h" is pronounced, unlike in 'hour', so it should be 'a' instead of 'an.' It's only 'an' if the next sound is that of a vowel, right?

In Australia it's 'a herb garden' because they pronounce the hard 'h', in the US it's 'an herb garden' because the 'h' is silent.

I've never heard the 'h' of 'historical' as silent.

Well I'm an aussie, and I voted 'an' as correct.

Do you say 'istorical'? In that case, it would be 'an'.

 

[LaraOnline]

No I don't actually. But I do find it more comfortable to pronounce 'an' before launching into a soft vowel sound like 'h'.
The idea of 'an herb' sounds pretentious to me, so I wouldn't use that. (But I would have assumed it was the more correct / higher class pronunciation) There are so many examples of incomplete 'rules' in English that this inconsistency has never bothered me at all. I just assumed that modern language had over time experienced a degradation in the use of the 'an' with soft vowel sounds (such as those starting with h)

 

[AGBF]

No I don't actually. But I do find it more comfortable to pronounce 'an' before launching into a soft vowel sound like 'h'.
The idea of 'an herb' sounds pretentious to me, so I wouldn't use that. (But I would have assumed it was the more correct / higher class pronunciation)

I use two pronunciations for the word, "herb". Growing up I used to use a pronounced, "h" more frequently and thus would always have said, "a herb". I realized that more people in this area were using the word with a silent, "h" and began to use that at some point (probably in my teens). I then switched to saying, "an herb".

Deb/AGBF

 

[justginger]

No I don't actually. But I do find it more comfortable to pronounce 'an' before launching into a soft vowel sound like 'h'.
The idea of 'an herb' sounds pretentious to me, so I wouldn't use that. (But I would have assumed it was the more correct / higher class pronunciation)

I use two pronunciations for the word, "herb". Growing up I used to use a pronounced, "h" more frequently and thus would always have said, "a herb". I realized that more people in this area were using the word with a silent, "h" and began to use that at some point (probably in my teens). I then switched to saying, "an herb".

Deb/AGBF

Not pretentious at home, Lara -- it's more like 'anerb.'

No one I know in the States pronounces the 'h' of 'herb.' No one I know in Australia doesn't pronounce the 'h' of 'herb.' I just chalked it up to a regional difference. I now pronounce the h.

 

[AGBF]

In Australia it's 'a herb garden' because they pronounce the hard 'h', in the US it's 'an herb garden' because the 'h' is silent.

Ginger-

Although I had read the thread before posting, I didn't take this in the first time around. (I guess I was reading more for information about whether the "an" before "historical" was correct!)

As I mentioned in my posting about how I used the word, "herb" I used it both ways in the United States. Perhaps it was your own experience only to see if used with the silent "h" in the US (indeed it may be the more common way), but that is not the universal way it is used. My mother taught me that both ways were correct, but she must have said, "herb" with a pronounced, "h" more frequently or I would not have picked that up.

There were many things in my mother's speech that were not generally accepted in my region, even though my matrilineal line goes back several generations in Connecticut. She used to say, "apricot" with a long "a" and most people here said it with a short "a", for instance. It may be that the town in which I grew up was closer to New York City than the one in which she and her mother were raised. I do not know.

Deb/AGBF

 

[JewelFreak]

Interesting article, Monarch. I go with what he said -- a historic. People say it both ways, but to me "an" historic sounds a bit pretentious since the h is asperated. Nobody says "an" hysteric, e.g. I lump it with those who pronounce "processes" with a long "e" at the end: processeeez. As if "we professors are so used to the Latin, it comes out naturally."

--- Laurie

 

[LaraOnline]

Interesting article, Monarch. I go with what he said -- a historic. People say it both ways, but to me "an" historic sounds a bit pretentious since the h is asperated. Nobody says "an" hysteric, e.g. I lump it with those who pronounce "processes" with a long "e" at the end: processeeez. As if "we professors are so used to the Latin, it comes out naturally."

--- Laurie

Actually I would find it natural to say 'an hysteric' lol... Although come to think of it, it's not a common expression here.
I would be more likely to say 'she's hysterical' I think. 'Hypochondriac' would come preceded by an 'a' lol.

Like I said previously, these half-baked rules have never bothered me, as I see them as typical of an old and ever-growing language. Having said that, as a thread jack I do see the growing tendency to drop the -ly at the e end of words with a degree of alarm.

Eg 'she's doing poor' rather than 'doing poorly'. Now, that bothers me lol.
But I think it's an American thing and until I hit PS I'd just never noticed or experienced that way of talking / speaking before.

 

[amc80]

I definitely agree with the posters who say "a".

In "historical", the "h" sound is a hard h. Thus it should be preceded by "a".

Just gotta say my pet peeve is when people use "So and so and I" every time they talk about themselves in a sentence.

Correct:
"Catherine and I" went to the movies.

Correct:
John gave Catherine and me gifts.

INCORRECT!!!
John gave Catherine and I gifts.

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack and thank you for letting me vent Kenny.

That is one of my biggest pet peeves. That, and the new "literally" trend sweeping the nation (world?). I went on a tirade on fb about it last night.

 

[AGBF]

My mother taught me that both ways were correct, but she must have said, "herb" with a pronounced, "h" more frequently or I would not have picked that up.

There were many things in my mother's speech that were not generally accepted in my region, even though my matrilineal line goes back several generations in Connecticut. She used to say, "apricot" with a long "a" and most people here said it with a short "a", for instance.

I looked up the British pronunciation of, "herb" and "apricot" and it is the same one that my mother used. I know that when I take the tests on what region one's speech falls into mine is usually the Buffalo, New York/ Great Lakes region and also that people say I speak, "television English". That may seem odd since I am "officially" in New England and there is a very distinct New England accent. Connecticut, at least my part of it, is too far south to have that Boston to Maine accent, however. We also completely miss the New York accents that people a mere 30-60 miles away in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Long Island have. I don't know how I came to speak as I do except that I speak the way my mother did!!!

Deb/AGBF

 

[LLJsmom]

Interesting article, Monarch. I go with what he said -- a historic. People say it both ways, but to me "an" historic sounds a bit pretentious since the h is asperated. Nobody says "an" hysteric, e.g. I lump it with those who pronounce "processes" with a long "e" at the end: processeeez. As if "we professors are so used to the Latin, it comes out naturally."

--- Laurie

Actually I would find it natural to say 'an hysteric' lol... Although come to think of it, it's not a common expression here.
I would be more likely to say 'she's hysterical' I think. 'Hypochondriac' would come preceded by an 'a' lol.

Like I said previously, these half-baked rules have never bothered me, as I see them as typical of an old and ever-growing language. Having said that, as a thread jack I do see the growing tendency to drop the -ly at the e end of words with a degree of alarm.

Eg 'she's doing poor' rather than 'doing poorly'. Now, that bothers me lol.
But I think it's an American thing and until I hit PS I'd just never noticed or experienced that way of talking / speaking before.

Lara, I cannot agree with you more. They are doing this because people do not know the difference between an adjective and an adverb. Nor do people now learn the different parts of speech. My kids attend public school in California and it is positively distressing how little they teach or focus on grammar. I have to supplement by giving them Mommy-tutoring using my old grammar textbook from 32 years ago, which I found online. Foreigners have better grammatical skills than we do.

 

[LLJsmom]

I definitely agree with the posters who say "a".

In "historical", the "h" sound is a hard h. Thus it should be preceded by "a".

Just gotta say my pet peeve is when people use "So and so and I" every time they talk about themselves in a sentence.

Correct:
"Catherine and I" went to the movies.

Correct:
John gave Catherine and me gifts.

INCORRECT!!!
John gave Catherine and I gifts.

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack and thank you for letting me vent Kenny.

That is one of my biggest pet peeves. That, and the new "literally" trend sweeping the nation (world?). I went on a tirade on fb about it last night.

Thank you amc!!!! We must have been twins separated at birth!!

 

[amc80]

I definitely agree with the posters who say "a".

In "historical", the "h" sound is a hard h. Thus it should be preceded by "a".

Just gotta say my pet peeve is when people use "So and so and I" every time they talk about themselves in a sentence.

Correct:
"Catherine and I" went to the movies.

Correct:
John gave Catherine and me gifts.

INCORRECT!!!
John gave Catherine and I gifts.

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack and thank you for letting me vent Kenny.

That is one of my biggest pet peeves. That, and the new "literally" trend sweeping the nation (world?). I went on a tirade on fb about it last night.

Thank you amc!!!! We must have been twins separated at birth!!

This was my post of fb last night- "I hope the "literally" trend ends soon...because it's figuratively going to make me lose my mind."
I'm sure many of my friends were confused. I hate when people say something like "you literally blew my mind" (no, you didn't) or "I literally just left 5 minutes ago" (um obviously literally unless you figuratively left 5 minutes ago). My boss who is a Director in a large, international corporation says literally ALL the time. "I literally just got out of a meeting with her." Grrr.

 

[AGBF]

This was my post of fb last night- "I hope the "literally" trend ends soon...because it's figuratively going to make me lose my mind." I'm sure many of my friends were confused. I hate when people say something like "you literally blew my mind" (no, you didn't) or "I literally just left 5 minutes ago" (um obviously literally unless you figuratively left 5 minutes ago). My boss who is a Director in a large, international corporation says literally ALL the time. "I literally just got out of a meeting with her." Grrr.

I must have missed being annoyed at the, "literally" trend. The "randomly" trend drove my husband and me absolutely mad. Our daughter insisted on (and still insists on) using the word, "randomly" whenever she chose (chooses) to throw it into a sentence rather to use it as a word with some statistical significance!

AGBF

 

[JewelFreak]

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

All that drives me over the cliff. I watched a crime show yesterday while ironing & heard these sentences:

"Me and the crew went into the house."

"Myself and my partner stopped the car."

"They gave it to him and I."

Was ready to send a big fat grammar book to Discovery channel. The use of "myself" for "I" or "me" just makes me grind my teeth.

I also HATE the use of "gift" as a verb. "GIFT" is a NOUN. "Give" is no harder to say, folks!

--- Laurie

 

[LLJsmom]

"I" is never the object of a preposition, and never a direct or indirect object.

All that drives me over the cliff. I watched a crime show yesterday while ironing & heard these sentences:

"Me and the crew went into the house."

"Myself and my partner stopped the car."

"They gave it to him and I."

Was ready to send a big fat grammar book to Discovery channel. The use of "myself" for "I" or "me" just makes me grind my teeth.

I also HATE the use of "gift" as a verb. "GIFT" is a NOUN. "Give" is no harder to say, folks!

--- Laurie

Laurie, I am glad to know I am not crazy. Or if I am, I'm not the only one!! I am sooooo with you! I heard a radio ad by a law firm, and they said, "The IRS is acting aggressive." OMG. Hello?? An adjective cannot modify a verb. Shouldn't a whole law firm full of attorneys know that? I would not trust them to handle my matters.

 

[maccers]

The problem using 'a' with 'historical' is that 'ahistorical' is also a word. In conversation, this could be confusing depending on context.

 

[LaraOnline]

The problem using 'a' with 'historical' is that 'ahistorical' is also a word. In conversation, this could be confusing depending on context.

Hm! that's an interesting point!
I wonder if that's why the use sprang up?
Although I suspect it may also be to do with a long-forgotten upper class idea of 'hard' and 'soft' enunciation of the 'h' sound.
eg 'herb' to my ear uses a hard h utterance.
'historical' is slightly softer, with the 'h' having less dominance.