Un-cut cornered step-cut Engagement Ring ca1935

[jwwbrock]

[*]Hi All,

I'm new to the forums, and I'm coming with the hopes of getting some of your excellent advice in regards to an interesting piece I am considering.

I have been told by a trusted dealer that it is a ca1935 piece. The art deco period had many design features depending on whether it be late Edwardian, middle geometric or oriental and the more severe geometric of the middle 30's. The period lasted approximately twenty years. The ring has such touches as faint dart and dash engraving on the shanks, a severe tapering of the shank from the pair of baguettes, the spare use of metal (a good thing), the tapering of the corner cups at the points, the low profile of the mounting, etc. The setting is platinum. My jeweler says that nobody makes this mounting today.

The stone is a unique cut. It appears to be somewhat like an Asscher, however its corners are squared. The best way to describe it might be an "un-cut cornered step-cut," something my jeweler has not seen imitated since before WWII. The stone appears to be 3.46 carat, VS2, color J, measuring approximately 8.35 x 8.23 x 3.48mm. The stone is not certified by GIA or any other agency.

Asking price: $37,500

I would love to hear your thoughts and comments on this ring. I am very inexperienced in the field, and I would really appreciate your advice!

 

[ariel144]

I question those measurements on that 3+carat asccher. That would make the depth only 42%....and if it was only 42% depth the measurements would be a lot larger than 8.3mm square...IMO the depth is more likely 65-70% the price seems really high to me compared to some I found doing a quick search which are GIA certified stones. Since it is an estate ring he probably paid 1/3 or less than his asking price. like $10-15k for it. they have a huge mark up on estate rings.

A very unusual cut. I love ascchers.
I would ask him to remeasure the stone..

You might want to check on 1stdibs.com. They have several antique 3c asschers listed there, and you could compare.

34654478 3.26 K VS2 GIA 70.1 61 Medium None Very Good Very Good None 8.31x7.92x5.55 1.05:1.00 $17,231.71

41291620 3.31 J VS1 GIA 68.6 70 Slightly Thick-Thick None Very Good Very Good Faint 8.32x8.31x5.71 1:1.00 $30,398.41

32274812 3.50 J VS1 GIA 65.9 70 Thin-Slightly Thick None Excellent Very Good None 8.64x8.47x5.58 1.02:1.00 $31,937.36

41291632 3.51 I VS1 GIA 68.4 64 Very Thick None Excellent Very Good Faint 8.24x8.22x5.62 1:1.00 $39,434.85

 

[ariel144]

More comparisons:
The first one is an antique ring

http://www.abrandtandson.com/Late_Art_Deco_Plat_Emerald_Cut_Diamond_Engage_Ring_3.90ct.html#product_detail

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIA-Huge-Bling-4-03-Center-Emerald-Cut-Asscher-Diamond-SI1-/321033630359?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item4abf187297

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-01ct-ASSCHER-Cut-D-Color-VS2-Clarity-GIA-Certified-100-Natural-Loose-Diamond-/110990026096?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item19d7856570

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-00ct-ASSCHER-Cut-H-Color-VS1-Clarity-EGL-Certified-100-Natural-Loose-Diamond-/110989973795?pt=Loose_Diamonds&hash=item19d7849923

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds-search/?View=4&Tab=3&Comparison=1424352,1529739,1513778,1528411,1391689,1177918,1336807,1393015,1544451

I’m liking this one with the really small table...nice:
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VVS2-Very-Good-Cut-Asscher-Diamond-1336807.asp

 

[jwwbrock]

Thanks for the help. I have been able to find many listings of beautiful rings online, with listing prices visible. However, I still do not have a good sense for the typical sale price for these rings. If you had to approximate, typically what kind of discount do antique rings sell for off of the listed price? Given the high mark-up you mentioned, I presume the discount could be quite high? For example, would it be common to see an antique ring sold for 25% less than its listing price? I currently have no way of judging, since sale prices are never shown.

I'm planning on taking a trip to NYC in a couple days and plan to visit the following stores to do a little comparison shopping:

Jeri Cohen Fine Jewelry
James Robinson
Frank Pollak and Sons
GOLDIVA by Golda Co.
TMW Jewels Co.
A La Vieille Russie
Israel Rose


Some of the shops are in the diamond district in NYC on 47th street, which makes me a little wary, since I've heard replicas can be mixed in with the the genuine antiques.

Thanks for any advice anyone might have, and here is another photo!

 

[ariel144]

That size looks really nice on your hand, but I think I can see through the facets to your skin so this stone has too much leakage. You may want to call Good Old Gold as well and see what they can find you in an antique and Old World Diamonds.

 

[ariel144]

I don't know about what to offer. I would start low....like 30% off. I know A Brandt and sons gives a 10% discount...read that from an online review of someone who had shopped there. They are in PA though.

 

[Aerix]

It's a pretty ring, but I have to agree with ariel though, that shot of it on your hand looks like it shows quite a bit of leakage.

 

[yssie]

WOW.



OMG. I've never even seen pics of a carre cut that size before!!


That's an incredibly unique and rare sort of stone I think it's the sort of piece you buy because you appreciate that specific stone. RBs, ECs, etc. that "perform" well by our most common metrics aren't a dime a dozen but they aren't exactly rare either, so comparison shopping by "light return" is a viable option... but for a stone like this those alternatives just aren't there, so there's nothing to compare it to.

I'd be really curious to see what GIA would call it!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Yes, I feel like with a true antique stone like this that is so rare, and was not cut for optics anyways, leakage etc is not an issue. I would wager on the estate market there may be only 2-3 stones like this in the US!

If you want to proceed then you need to get a proper appraisal by someone you pay. I recommend David Atlas based on his posts on PS and experiences my friends have had. Many other PSers like Neil Beatty too, who also posts on PS. In a transaction like this you cannot take anything the seller tells you on face value -- you must verify color clarity and carat for yourself with a very good appraiser.

How much is appropriate to offer etc. depend on the type of seller. High end estate stores like Lang Antiques in California seem to basically charge and arm and a leg and people will pay. Less ritzy estate sellers will charge less. I can tell you on ebay, old cut diamonds in the 3-4ct range, many with GIA reports, sell for between $18k and $30k. Those are not provate sellers, they are estate sellers with an ebay presence. So to me, $37k is on the very high end. They may be able to ask that because of the utter rarity of the cut. Rarity really affects price. But I would personally do your own homework -- look for comps, get an appraisal, and then make your offer based on that, combined with your own love of the piece.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It's a pretty ring, but I have to agree with ariel though, that shot of it on your hand looks like it shows quite a bit of leakage.

I doubt its leakage in that picture anyways. The basket would be under the ring where that peachy color reflects, so leakage would look dark grey not peach. I think that is the photographers arm or face refecting in the stone.

 

[dianabarbara]

I don't know much about leakage, but I totally second what DreamerD has written above.

Having some knowledge about other comparable pieces will also help you negotiating the price, if you wish.

I love the way it looks on your hand. Absolutely beautiful, one of my favorite looks yet!!

 

[imagardener2]

I am by no means an expert but because you asked for opinions, well that I have.
First, I agree that your opinion is the one that counts, no one elses. But I have found that I like to look at things, especially expensive things, from all points of view, even getting opposing views so that I can consider whether they make any difference in my feelings.

Having said all that, here's what I thought when I first saw your photo wearing the ring: "It looks like a piece of glass, not a diamond". Part of that is the large size but the other part is the cut. Many faux rings have similar cuts. They are essentially large pieces of glass cut to look like a gem.

Yes, it is a very unusual cut and maybe there is a reason for that. As technology of faceting moved forward cuts became ever more complicated in order to increase the sparkle (I know there's a technical term for that). This cut is old-fashioned but to my eye not as charming as rose-cut or old mine cut.

I have spent months now (since discovering pricescope) poring over gems and setting and making many bookmarks. Last night I decided to sort all those bookmarks and look at what I thought I liked at the time. 80% of them got deleted last night. My taste has changed as I studied sellers and PS'ers posts. Is it better now? I don't know but I'm glad I didn't commit to anything expensive ...yet.

How do you feel about it if money were no object? Would it bother you if people who saw your ring thought it wasn't real?
That sort of thing doesn't bother me at all as long as I like something. The thing that bothers me is the low number of facets for something that size. Again I'm not an expert. End of my opinion.

 

[anne_h]

IMO, with buying antique pieces, what matters most is how *you* feel about it. If you love it, that counts for a lot. It's hard to find pieces one loves. Especially in larger sizes. (IMO anyways.)

I will agree with Dreamer - if you love this piece and are seriously interested, arrange to send it to a trusted pricescope appraiser to find out its specific specs and then go from there as to a fair price.

*If* you think you will want to sell the piece again at some point, then yes you also need to think about re-sale attractiveness, but overall for me the #1 factor is how much I love something (followed by fairish pricing).

Hope this helps, good luck and keep us posted!

Anne

PS - I thought it looked great on your hand. You can definitely do step cuts.

 

[ariel144]

Yes, I feel like with a true antique stone like this that is so rare, and was not cut for optics anyways, leakage etc is not an issue. I would wager on the estate market there may be only 2-3 stones like this in the US!

If you want to proceed then you need to get a proper appraisal by someone you pay. I recommend David Atlas based on his posts on PS and experiences my friends have had. Many other PSers like Neil Beatty too, who also posts on PS. In a transaction like this you cannot take anything the seller tells you on face value -- you must verify color clarity and carat for yourself with a very good appraiser.

How much is appropriate to offer etc. depend on the type of seller. High end estate stores like Lang Antiques in California seem to basically charge and arm and a leg and people will pay. Less ritzy estate sellers will charge less. I can tell you on ebay, old cut diamonds in the 3-4ct range, many with GIA reports, sell for between $18k and $30k. Those are not provate sellers, they are estate sellers with an ebay presence. So to me, $37k is on the very high end. They may be able to ask that because of the utter rarity of the cut. Rarity really affects price. But I would personally do your own homework -- look for comps, get an appraisal, and then make your offer based on that, combined with your own love of the piece.

Interesting the rarity of this cut. So if you love this stone then I would follow DD's advice and get it appraised and go for it. The rarity of antique stones is part of the joy of owning one IMO. The more rare, the more special they are. It seems the vendor is aware of this too. Keep us posted on what you decide.

Also it looks pretty white for a J color in a step cut which tend to show more color.

Love this thread.